Denise Wall

Last one - Outruns and driving: http://www.vimeo.com/5305406

I had a hard time finding all of this one but here it is. Mostly sorting and shedding, some flank work and explanation, and a beginning "look back" at the end. http://www.vimeo.com/5291433

Thanks to you guys for taking the time to look at them The 22 month one is processing and should be up tonight.

I would like to note that some of the information I'm sharing in the individual threads of the reposts are things I feel I did wrong. I have a different perspective now, seeing these again, taking into account what I know about May at 2.5 years old.

Thanks again Sue and Becca. As I said in that other thread, I can only watch them in HD on my newest computer. I can't even watch them in HD on my once powerful and not that old Mac that I'm using to upload them in HD

Thanks Sue and Becca. Sorry, Carolyn. Funny thing is, even though I have DSL I can only watch in HD on my newest cheapest PC laptop.

Thanks Jamie. If they've got to grip, better that clean nose grip. As an aside, grip patterns (where on the animal they grip) are something I've found to be very heritable.

Hi Karrin, Thanks. I'm glad you're watching these since you started the group of threads that prompted me to repost them. There are actually five up so far (8, 10, 11, 14 and 18 months). I've been in and out all weekend but hope to post the last two (22 and 23 months) by tonight. If you go to the Forum Handler's Post you can see each individual thread for that update with an explanation and sometimes a few comments or discussion. You might enjoy the beginning ones even though they're not very long.

More of May's development into a good farm dog during lambing season. Note that I'm still not using many commands but instead letting her figure things out mostly on her own, especially on her gathers. At the end, I do some training on off balance flanks and introduce shedding. In retrospect, I probably should've spent more time on mechanical training with this particular dog. But as I said, I enjoy developing the natural that's bred into them so much, I have a hard time making myself do the drilling. My bad. http://vimeo.com/5251388

In this video, we see how May learns well from real work type situations. In fact, it becomes one of those double edged sword things like so many traits in working dogs. She quickly becomes so focused on what she views as the job that she only needs me to show her a few times and then I almost don't even need to be out there for her to do it. Her maternal grandmother, Molly, was like this so I should have recognized it early on. Not being too quick on the draw, it took me a bit longer to realize I would need to make sure I paid close attention to her ability to also be flexible to command in these situations. As I said in a later video, May is always a dog with a plan. Good when you need that, but you also need to keep a balance with flexibility to change as needed. http://vimeo.com/5248311

Here's where the videos become a bit more technical in my explanations, and where we can see some nice areas of development such as the start of distance balance and feel on flanks, as well as a more appropriate response from her to handler pressure to widen out and such. Also, we can see areas of future problems, such as the dreaded cross-overs on the outruns. This is also shot when I first got my HD camera, so those with the capability can view these at high quality if they like. I don't find Vimeo's format to be very good for action - some skipped frames and jerking. However, they should look a little better overall in HD. http://vimeo.com/5246467

Thanks to all for your nice comments. For beginning foundation before stock, I did what so many working dog people do, I just tried to make a good (well-behaved) dog out of her. I had a recall off sheep ahead of time. I don't really remember but I'd say it basically happened pretty naturally either from watching the other dogs come to me when called and running with them, or from consistently expecting it from the time she was a pup (no treats involved!). The "down" I got, what there is of it, on sheep. I don't think she knows what "lie down" means off stock to this day. I'm sure I had to put sheep in a corner, get between them and her and catch her at some point in the beginning though. Also, I actually did have a short line on her in that first video in case I couldn't catch her. And I do step on it one time to enforce a lie down.

Another short one. Since she does a pretty decent job handling these, it may be hard to appreciate it but these were fresh lambs she was working at the first of it. She's always handled lambs well. A little naughtiness at the end but at least she's a clean nose nipper like her mom. http://vimeo.com/5241630

Anna, I'm so so sorry. I'm crying as I write this. I just went through something very similar with Mick, except his gall bladder hadn't ruptured yet. They caught it just in time. Still the same 50% mortality rate. He's still alive, but apparently not doing that great according to his labs. Please know I'm thinking about you. RIP Lucky.

Hi all, Due to a few requests here and privately, I'm going back and digging up these old May training videos. As I find them, I'll repost them. They go through 23 months. I more or less ran out (aged out) of open dogs a year ago and due to ongoing health problems with myself and some of my dogs, I've not been trialing or even working dogs much this year. I hope to run May in Open at least a little this fall. If I do, I'll try to show what she ended up like as a competitive trial dog. Trials aside, I consider her to have ended up as a *very* good using dog with quite a bit of scope in different work situations. She's now 2.5 years old. First off, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not trying to set myself up as some kind of great trainer. Because I'm not. Just average. When I trained horses and at least for a while training dogs, I'd say I had and used the lightening fast timing and correction techniques so effective for many. I don't know whether I don't have it now, or if I'm just too lazy anymore to use it, but now I try to think about it and set things up ahead of time so things are pretty calm and relaxed as much as possible. And so I can use the sheep and sheep pressure to teach the dog as much as possible. I find I enjoy training dogs more this way at my age. In addition, May is the fourth generation of my dogs and also the fourth generation where I've found too much pressure from me causes them to become hard and fight me or come in wrong on the sheep. As time has gone by, I've mostly figured out how much pressure will be enough to get a response from them while still feeling a (hopefully) good effect on the sheep, but not so much as to cause them to fight me. I don't like to start battles that make it only about me and the dog. I want it to be about me, the dog *and* the sheep. That said, in watching this now, I see where my too sharp and fast kind of barking at her on occasion does exactly what I say I'm trying to avoid. Watch especially at the end, where my voice correction causes her to cut off the end sheep as she goes around. As I watch, I think a lower, more drawn-out growl would have been much more effective. Also my body pressure could have been slower in places. Anyway, there's not too much in this first one. Just a beginning exposure. I would've never made any pre-judgements about how she would turn out using this video. http://vimeo.com/5237059

Thanks for reminding me of this, Deb. I mis-spoke before. There are some types of horses doing things that are bred into them. Absolutely. I rode jumpers, three day event horses, and dressage. Although there are definitely differences in talent and aptitude, and horses may be seen spontaneously performing certain movements of dressage in the pasture, or even jumping the odd fence on their own, they mostly will not be doing these things unless you make them. Whereas many a well bred little puppy will naturally cast out, go around behind the sheep and bring them to you with no training at all. Check out Robin's Bart, bred by Laura Hicks, first time on sheep, at 12 weeks:

I know you didn't. Just trying to clarify my point.

I really don't know. Maybe. Especially with other breeds, like driving breeds. That fact is I wouldn't mess with a dog that has little or no instinct. I've done my time trying to think of ways to train things that aren't there when I trained horses. That's why I so enjoy training good well-bred border collies. I like breeding for and developing what's already there. Years and years ago in an interview in what was the UK's Working Sheepdog News at the time, a top trainer and handler was asked about "putting" pace in a dog. What he said was so basic, yet so memorable for me. "The easiest way to get something is just to breed for it."

I think they key here is "still end up a *truly* good gathering dog when things get as tough as they get. " I'm not talking about arena trials. It's the same as the concept as when you see a dog that has managed to be a really good one despite its handler, it's worth looking at for breeding.

Because this may be from my post, I'll address it. I'm sorry, if you're talking about border collies with talent, using a technique that does not allow a gathering breed to gather, possibly/probably destroying the instinct to do so, is not "out of the box," it's counter productive. I don't know how anybody can call such a counter-intuitive practice effective. If a dog can withstand that kind of training, and still end up a *truly* good gathering dog when things get as tough as they get, well, we all need to be breeding to that dog. Because that is one resilient SOB. The example of teaching weave poles through some new "out of the box" thinking technique is not a good analogy. Dogs have no inborn instinct to do weave poles. Or obedience or agility in general for that matter. Many of Marc's methods seem to stem from teaching horses, that also have little or no inborn instinct to do what is being trained. I was a long time horse trainer. I see the difference. When I first started out, a big hat said to me something to the effect of, "The most common and worst mistake beginners and novices make in trying to train their dogs is that they don't allow their dogs completely cover the sheep." This is probably been the most consistently true thing I've ever heard about learning to train border collies to work sheep. I don't understand how Jan considers herself more qualified to evaluate the success of MC's method than people who actually walk the walk. Weave poles, maybe. Once again, it's wise to stick to your area of expertise before making "expert" judgements.

I finally went and read this. It didn't really change my views on what was originally written here and was attempting to be refuted. Novice/beginner - sort of interchangeable for me. And despite the assurance from Jan's peers (HobNobers?) that this new info she posted here and on the link was "one strong verbal slap of knowledge!" I doubt it impressed many if any of my peers in the least. And note to Jan, as a very lengthy recent thread will indicate, working dogs and posting videos using the style of "the most wonderful Marc Christopher" is not likely to gain you acknowledgment as "not a beginner" by the mainstream working/trialing people. That said, I would like to note that anybody can run any dog in USBCHA Open. And sometimes even place. Some people do this at selected trials where they can cherry pick the situation to their advantage, sometimes even only at their own farm, or that of a friend where they have "practiced" the course so much that they have a chance or unfair advantage over teams running in the trial fresh. If you're going to use trials as a criteria to showcase your dog's talents, it is the quality of the trials, sheep and dog work over time and challenging conditions that truly show the quality of a dog. Consistent placings do matter but there are lots of dogs with handlers that do not place regularly whose dogs are respected and sought after for breeding because knowledgeable people can see the quality of the dog. It's not same world as AKC. People watch the actual work, not just titles no matter how they are obtained. I guess this post will be viewed as bashing from a "non AKC purist" but all I really want to say is you obviously have a market for which you breed dogs that excel - sport dogs. If you do not understand the reality of expectations in the real sheepdog/cattledog working world, either try to figure it out and be honest in your presentation of your dogs' abilities and accomplishments, or accept that those people who actually live in that world will "bash" you as you say. ETA Just so you'll know, yes, I've had border collies since before 1980. I've had them all my life, in fact. And my paternal grandmother was a working border collie breeder way back when using dogs from imported UK stock from Aurthur Allen.

Jan, Another viewpoint. This is something I see over and over in people whose main accomplishments are in areas of obedience, agility or other dog sports, but somehow feel it's equal or good enough to do only okay or mediocre in "herding." As someone who's been at the top of these other sports yourself, and bred dogs that got there with others, how do you compare the less than top of the game herding accomplishments from yourself and the dogs you bred? Surely you realize that Pro/Novice is not USBCHA Open and therefore not top of the game and equal to OTChs and such? (I can't and won't comment on the AKC herding stuff.) I guess it always amazes me that the very people who brag over their lower level herding accomplishments as if it's the highest standard, are the same people who would scoff at those bragging about that lower standard being reached in their own specialty area of obedience or agility. As in, would you consider getting a CD a major accomplishment to set up as a highest standard in obedience? Probably not. If not, you can well imagine that N/N and pronovice, however successful you were, just doesn't pull the same weight as USBCHA Open success with those at the top of their game in that area, just as similar lower accomplishments in your areas of success don't pull the same weight as top accomplishments with you.

No problem. I'm not emotional over it anyway. The videos or the pictures. It is what it is. There's so much media of all kinds out there for free anymore. People watch what interests them, and for only as long as it holds their interest. YouTube started this "insight" thing that showed some stats on your videos so you could get some feedback on interest level of the viewers among other things. Basically, even in the few hits I was getting, people only watched for a few seconds and then moved on to something more interesting to them. It's just the world we live in today. To bring this back on topic, most border collie trainers I know use lines here and there, depending on the dog and trainer. Just not the way you're describing.

Uh, thanks but I took all those May training videos down many months ago and no one noticed. Apparently, even still. Videos like "Border collie attacks pumpkin" get nearly a million hits (if not more by now), but the stuff I put up, along with most other actual non AKC herding videos, not so many. It just didn't seem worth the effort. Plus YouTube kept changing formats and the quality was variable on each one. The old ones looked horrible. Anyway, they're not there anymore.

I didn't win it, but I placed there with Mick the one year I went. I gotta say, I'm more proud of that placing than any other trial placing. There are lots of handlers on this board who do well in these really tough trials. It's a whole different ball game. The thing is, the opportunities to develop each of the skills needed in a finished dog usually present themselves quite naturally over time using the stock pressure if you watch for them.