stockdogranch

I've been following this for a couple of days now, and hesitated to post, but... So (to the OP), you pretty much are saying you know you "made a mistake" in choosing this pup. There is still time to NOT take this pup, and wait for a better prospect. Yet, you're going ahead?!?! (Where's that head-banging emoticon when you need it?) I guess we're all wondering WHY. You say some sort of "family" reason? So you're already emotionally invested? You've told a child this is the pup that's coming, and can't "back out"? Both scenarios would be good "learning opportunities" as they say, so why not demonstrate some maturity in thinking and do what you seem to admit you know is the "right thing" (i.e., not get this pup)? It sounds like you really do understand why it would not be a good idea to get this pup, so then WHY??? A

Julie, for what it's worth--I've never had a dog act at all weird as far as me working the dog from a horse (once the dog is used to the horse, of course (of course (sorry, got a Mr. Ed thing going there))). They just kind of look at me like, "oh, you're tall today!" A

I'm with Julie on this one as far as oatmeal. I feed Taste of the Wild, but all my dogs LOVE cooked oatmeal. I make a huge bowl of it ahead of time (kind of soupy), and add a big glop of it, stirred into their TOTW pretty much every day. I've found that some of my finicky eaters will eat most of their food when it is plain, but eat it ALL when the oatmeal is added. l also have a friend who says her dog was a bit thin until she started adding cooked oatmeal to his dinner. He is now at a much better weight. A

Yes, Terri's Lady Bird (RIP); I didn't know Rob had one of them. YAY! That's what I get for being out of the "sheep" loop. Has his bitch been a good one for him? (I can't imagine that she hasn't!). A

No need to wait for his papers, Danielle :-). Yes, the one and only (as far as I know) Stetson. Sire of Russell (Russell McCord named the dog after himself); Russell X Lucky resulted in Puzzel (the granddaughter mentioned who won the 2000 Lone Star Futurity in Nacodgoches) and Riddle. Riddle is the maternal grandma to your Mossie boy. Stetson was also the sire of Rudy (2003 Reserve National Cattle Champion). Both Puzzel and Riddle each had a litter by Rudy (Rudy is the one that put the curls/waves in the offspring's coats), A

Alcohol-yes. Bragging rights-yes. At least for Red Bluff, there is a prestiege involved, both for the seller and the buyer, to have the "top selling Red Bluff dog," or one related to the "top selling Red Bluff dog," etc...but it's also not unheard of to hear from folks interested in your auction dog prior to the auction. They get the catalogue ahead of time, look at the pedigrees and pics, read the seller's description, and contact the seller before the auction. I've also had folks come to my place to look at a dog that I've consigned prior to the auction (and I live 12 hours from the auction). I've had people contact me prior, then arrange to meet me at the sale grounds before we ever work the dogs, too. That doesn't necssarily mean that person will bid the highest, but it sometimes works that way, A

Good point. I think people often have a misconception of how "working people" treat their dogs. Many working people have their dogs with them most of the time, riding in the truck, or on the quad, or whatever. At the end of the day, maybe they're in a kennel, or maybe they're in the house. But, let's try looking at it from the *dog's* point of view. What is the dog's idea of a "good home"? I think sometimes we anthropomorphize too much, and look at things from *our* point of view. I would much rather see a dog work all day and hang around with its person in the truck or on the quad, and then sleep in a kennel at night than to see one dressed in cutesy clothing, carried around in a purse or wheeled around in a stroller, talked to like an infant, and then sleep in the bed. Sure, that's the extreme, but you get the idea... A

Sure. I have, and probably will again. As someone noted, there are different types of auctions. I am familiar with the Red Bluff sale and the sale at National Western Stock Show in Denver. Both are sales for dogs working cattle (Red Bluff specifies young dogs--not sure if there is an age restriction for Denver). At both sales, you show the dog working, and those who are bidding are ranchers looking for a dog to take home to go to work right away on their cattle operations. The Red Bluff sale is in conjunction with their Bull sale; the bull sale has been going over 80 years, and the dog sale 35, I think. NWSS has been going for 5 years, I believe. I also see that Superior just had their first stockdog sale yesterday, online. I'm not sure how this one works, but Superior Livestock auctions are quite well known. I think in these cases, since the target audience is so specific, that most who consider selling or buying see an auction as a great way to place a dog into a good working home. At Red Bluff, you work the dog over three days. Before and after working the dogs, lots of people will talk to the handlers about the dogs--asking about such things as if the dog gets along with children, will also work sheep or goats, rides in the pickup or on the back of the quad, and so on. When I have been there and talked with potential buyers, I am always amazed at their stories--almost everyone who is seriously looking for a dog will speak of their old dog who has been the "greatest dog ever," but who is now getting old, and they are looking to find their new "greatest dog ever." Generally, the dogs (if they are good), sell for pretty good money. If a rancher pays $5,000 or $6,000 for a dog, they see the value of the dog as a work partner, and are not going to be careless with the dog's welfare. If I can raise a dog and train it up to be a useful working partner for a rancher, and it goes to a guy who has 2,500 pairs (and about 1,000 goats, too), and the ranching partner/son in law says, "oh, mom will really spoil this one," as I hand over the leash, it seems like a win-win to me, A

I should know better than to enter these conversations by now, but, I can't let this one pass. I don't want any dog of mine to EVER turn its head to the side and look away from the stock. When the dog does this, that tells the stock that the dog is weak, and the stock will then take advantage of the dog. I want my dogs to stand there, holding their ground AND their gaze, until the stock decide to turn and move off. No "abrupt movement" necessary; no grip necessary. Just balls of steel. But then, I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the amount of EYE a dog has or does not have. Personally, I happen to like quite a bit of eye. And I find that a lot of eye does not equal slow to move. I had a bitch that was faster than lightening with everything she did, but still had what I would describe as more than average eye, A

I've used several different airlines, and they all insist the pup be 8 weeks to fly. They will not fly them younger. A

I've used it for a number of years. My dogs all work--sometimes more than others. For those times when we really push things (like working all day, and needing to be ready to go again the next day), my vet just keeps me stocked up with it, trusting that I will use it with discretion. It has always worked really well for all my dogs. I'm thinking I've used it on at least 5 or 6 different dogs over the years, A

I say good for you for looking for a working bred dog (even if you "only" plan on doing agility). Where are you located? A

Both are fabulous, so if you *could* do both, that would be the ideal. But if I had to pick one to recommend, it would be Soldier Hollow for sure. For spectators, the viewing is the best. I've heard the vendors are good, too, although I've never visited any of them (I've always been up top before they open, and never gotten off the hill till after they've closed). But one other thing I think might set them apart would be the calibre of the handlers and dogs. At Meeker, if you send in your entry, in theory, you can run your dog (too many entries, usually, so it's a lottery as to whose entry gets in). So you see some teams who are possibly not up to the level they could/should be. You also get one run. If your score is good enough, you move on to the next round, and so on. At Soldier Hollow, it's invitational, and international, so, for the most part (there are some "discretionary" entries), the handler/dog teams have earned the right to compete there. You see the best of the best from around the world. Plus, I think you get a better feel for how each team performs, as each team gets two runs. The top 5 teams from each day move on to the final round. And the closing ceremony/winners' medals presentation is spectacular. Certainly, there is a great deal of overlap, as many of those competing at Soldier Hollow then go on to Meeker (one day travel time between the two). Then it's really fun to watch how consistently well some teams do, following them at both venues. A

Smalahundur, I'm with you! $250 to teach your dog to recall (ok, and other "impulse control" stuff)??!?! Man, I am SO underpaid for what I do with students and their dogs on livestock (and I have to FEED the livestock). Sheesh!! What a racket! I think PT Barnum had it right B)/> A

For those of us not "in the loop," what is SG? And what is Recallers 4.0? Thanks, A

I think, Sue, when it comes to food, for those of us who are reasonably "aware," we do what we can. I'm very lucky. I raise beef, lamb, chicken (and hens for eggs), turkey, and pork, as well as what veggies I can. I get fruit from friends with trees when I am lucky. I live in the middle of an orange grove. But, I still have to buy a number of things. I would love, love, love to have a dairy cow, but I am doing all I can to take care of what I have here. So I don't have one. I still have to buy flour and sugar, and those sorts of things--what we used to call "staples." I buy as much as I can from the "organic" places, but I really have no idea where those things come from or how they are grown/produced. The bottom line is that I know there is no such thing as perfect, but we all do what we can, given our particular set of circumstances, A

Right at 100 ewes (plus a few wethered school sheep), and a ram who is with the ewes year round = lots 'o lambs. At the moment, 90+ on the ground since mid October, and more coming every day. I'm on 500+ acres, some of which is in orange and avocado groves, at least 100 is fenced pastures, with 120 in rangeland. Other than taking them to one of the various pastures in the morning, back to the night pen at night, worming, tagging, banding lambs, and so on, our biggest job is keeping sheep in a pasture. The fences here were originally built for horses, so they don't reach the ground in most places. The sheep have learned to slip under the fences to escape into the groves, no matter how nice the grass is in the pasture. So I spend a fair amount of time while reading and commenting on student papers, with a dog, sending the dog to tuck sheep back into pastures when they make a jail break (with tiny lambs alongside). It's time consuming, but great work for the dogs. Avocado groves are notoriously built on steep slopes, and they are dense, so the dogs are on their own when I send them up there to bring sheep out. The last couple of youngsters I have started have been "trained" with just on-the-job-training. What I look for in a dog? My absolute top priority is a natural feel for stock--the ability to read stock and respond appropriately, pretty much right out of the box. For example, a youngster who, at 6 or 7 months, can get behind a momma and her new lambs and feel the right amount of pressure needed to move them without being stupid...and then also have the push needed to dog break calves. My 2 cents, A

I've always heard that they will do that; however, it has never happened in my household :blink:/> and I have 5 bitches... A

Without going into a whole long discussion of working bred border collies vs. sports bred dogs, I'll just respond to this one statement: perhaps what you're seeing in working bred border collies and calling "aloof and less handler focused" is the fact that, for most of us with working border collies, we don't WANT the dog focused on us. We need the dog to be focused on the stock. So, genetic components aside (which I believe are 90+% of what makes a working dog a working dog), perhaps the difference is in the expectations and training of the dogs. I like my dogs to be very independent and focused on their job and the stock. When the day is done and we are back in the house, THEN they can focus on me (or not--I leave this up to their discretion), A ETA: Then again, it also depends on what calibre of working dogs you've seen. I'm thinking perhaps you've not really seen high calibre, top level working bred border collies...

I had one like that. He loved kids when he was little, and he went everywhere and was very well socialized. Suddenly, somewhere between 6 months and a year old (with absolutely no apparent traumatic event), he just got really afraid of anyone/everyone under the age of about 18. He would bark, but run to get away from the kid. He was even like that with many adults. If it was the teenager from across the street who would come and feed the dogs when I needed to be gone, he would run to the farthest back part of the house. Anyway, he never did get over it--I just learned to live with it. He did get to where he would kind of tolerate the kid who would feed him, but that was about as good as it ever got. I didn't force the issue--I figured it was just who he was. A

If you're giving her Doxy (great), I would definitely NOT just put it in her mouth or shove it down her throat. It can be very caustic on the esophagus, and is also very hard on the stomach, which can really make them not want to eat. I learned this (the hard way) when my bitch had a TBD. She started throwing up and couldn't even keep water down (she was by that point only days away from whelping 9 pups). I had to pull her off food and water for a period of time, then slowly start with just a few ccs of water, slowly building back up and then adding solids. The best thing to do is to get her to eat something, anything, a small meal of any kind. Try stinky canned food, raw, whatever you can get her to eat. Wait about a half hour. Then it's time for burger balls: just little balls of raw ground beef. I would give a couple plain ones first, then give the one with the pill in it. Mine got to where she would anxiously wait for her burger balls. A

Julie's absolutely right on this. I had an experience a number of years ago with a pregnant bitch: limping that alternated legs, very listless, no appetite, poly arthritis, pitting edema, weird platelet counts, etc. The tick panel came back negative, but they put her on Doxy anyway, since TBDs were still their best guess. She responded amazingly well after just the first dose. I put her on the higher dose recommended by Tick-L for a good 8 or more weeks (probably more like 10 weeks, as I was afraid to take her off for fear of a relapse). She has been fine since, and those pups are now almost 7 years old. We did a more extensive panel a few months later, but still nothing showed up. As I found, this can be the nature of these darn TBDs--sometimes you never get confirmation from a blood test, but if the symptoms are consistent with TBDs and Doxy works, you know--if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... The best advice I got when I posted my girl's symptoms was to get on Tick-L. I'm sure it saved her life. A

It might also be helpful to know what you plans are for the pup. Do you plan to work it on stock? Some breeders prefer (not necessarily insist) that their pups go to working homes. Best thing to do is to look at the USBCHA website (www.usbcha.com) and find some trials in your area. Go, watch, and talk to as many people as you can. That's the best way to get to know who is in your area, what kind of dogs they breed, how they interact with their dogs, and so on, A. Oh, and RUN as fast as you can from those who "always have pups available"!! The well bred ones will be harder to come by, as most good breeders of working dogs will have at least a fair share of the litter spoken for ahead of time. But, if you get to know someone through trials, and you're not looking for the pup till next year, it could very well work out for you.

Coming into this conversation a little late, but a couple of observations: Well, maybe...or maybe not. In recent years, I have gotten pretty much away from "training" my pups. I take them a few times to the school sheep, and once I see that they have a bit of feel for the stock, and can lie down when I tell them, along with taking a flank with appropriate body language, I just take them to work. That usually entails taking the whole group (about 150 at the moment) out of the night pen and out to whichever pasture for the day. And gathering from that pasture to put them back at night. Or it might be taking them out to graze, and keeping them in that pasture. Speaking of crappy fences, I have good fences and gates, but since the fences were originally built for horses, most of them stop a good foot to 18 inches above the ground. Can we say sheep freeway? Into the orange and avocado groves they go on a very regular basis. I don't mind so much, as it makes for excellent work for the dogs to gather them from the groves and put them back where they belong. Again. and. again. Anyway, I can and do set up "work" situations for whatever a pup might need to learn. For example, Skamper, who just turned 2, has a TON of eye. And I knew if I didn't do things with her to combat it, she could easily have a number of issues because of it. So I took all the sheep out to one of the bigger pastures, let the sheep get really spread out grazing, then did outruns. We worked so that she had to learn to LOOK for ALL the sheep--not just glom on to the first packet she came to. So with that exercise, we worked on "get baaaack," "look," and "look back." We did this over the course of several months, and it worked great. I guess what I am saying is that when I am doing a job with a pup or dog, while I have the goal of accomplishing that job, my *bigger* goal is always to have the dog do correct work. So I don't think that if we are doing chores, that we necessarily "don't require as much precision or obedience." If we require that precision and obedience in work situations, consistently, then those things are just built in. A trial course is then no different, really. Shedding/sorting...I sort a LOT for lessons and people who come to work sheep. And I almost always gate sort. In each of the pastures there is a "catch pen" in the corner, so I can gather everyone into that, let back out into the pasture the ones I don't need to use, and keep the ones I want in the catch pen. However, I also have a boatload of 6 week old and younger lambs right now, and they are a PAIN for gate sorting. They don't stay close enough to their mother to follow her through the gate, and they surely won't go through it of their own accord, not for a while yet, anyway. The newest moms and babies always hang to the back of the group, or mom goes through the gate, then realizes her lamb isn't with her, and while you're trying to get more sheep OUT the gate, she has to push her way back IN to find her lamb. Anyway, I find that since the moms and youngest babies tend to hang to the back of the group when gathering, it's just as easy to do a quick shed to keep them from even being gathered to go through the sorting process. I send the dog to gather, then let the moms and lambs fade to the back, see a general opening that gets rids of most moms & babies, and call the dog in. Of course, once the moms see the other ewes going somewhere, the moms try really hard to go join everyone. Again--makes for GREAT work for the dog. Not just a shed, but the dog has to also really work hard to keep them apart while the one group gets moved to the gate to sort, and the moms & lambs have to be kept back. It's fun. Anyway, I guess my long-winded point is that there doesn't HAVE to be a difference between "real work" and prepping for a trial, A

The Stockdogranch will be hosting a Winter Series of Cattle trials starting December 1&2, 2012 in Pala, Ca. There will also be trials in Jan., Feb., and March. These will be NCA sanctioned, 2 day trials. Classes should be fairly small (not a ton of cattle folks in SoCal), so there will be an AM and a PM trial each day, for a total of 4 trials per weekend. There will be a cumulative buckle in all classes at the end of the series in March. Handlers have the option to be mounted for the AM trials. For more information, please contact me (Anna, at anna@stockdogranch.com); the entry for the first trial is also available on the NCA website, Thanks, A