stockdogranch

You ask why not specifically breed "Border Collies" to essentially NOT be Border Collies? The shortest (and nicest) answer I can give is that there are PLENTY of nice family-pet type dogs out there readily available--just go look at your local shelter. Or even get one of the many other breeds that USED to be useful for something but no longer are (because that's been bred out of them), that are now popular for being lovely family pets. A Border Collie IS a Border Collie because IT WORKS STOCK (or should at least have been carefully bred to do so, whether or not it ever sees stock in its life). That is why the breed was developed, and why so many of us are fighting HARD to keep it that way. Despite what the average (American; as Pam points out, it's very different in the UK) citizen thinks or believes, there is still a very big NEED for such a useful dog with livestock. And as Sue more eolquently pointed out, they are NOT "Borders." A

"The sheep are not stupid. They see this, and pick-up on it immediately. So often I see situations where dogs which lack confidence cannot budge some stroppy sheep, but a well trained, confident dog approaches them steadily but purposefully, and they move easily." THIS!!! A

The main question I always ask myself is *why* is the dog crossing over. As Andy points out, it might be to go to the preferred side, or the stock are close to a fence or something of that nature. I once had a dog who would insist on crossing over to go into the heads--she would not go into the butts, as she was trying to control the heads. And to her, that made sense--she felt that if she went into the butts, and the stock left, she would have to go much farther, faster, to cover them. So, in a sense, she was right, except, of course, she needed to learn to go the way I sent her. I just made sure I really set things up properly to make sure she stayed on the side I sent her from. With time, of course, she got over the crossing over. So the bottom line is--when the dog is not doing as you ask or expect, try to figure out why, and that will help you fix it, A

I am just finding out the hard way--I would never again give a puppy a food this high in protein. My orthopaedic surgeon suggests 22-25% protein for pups, A

I've got two that I have used for many years. They are sterling silver, and were custom made (purchased by the guy who was the SO at the time). They were built based on the plastic ones, so have the same half moon shape, with the little projections on each side. But the gal who made these made them MUCH thinner that the plastic. The only problem with that is that they can easily get clogged, hence the need for a handy running order (or dollar bill) in the back pocket to ream them out with. I've used these two for so many years that anything else just feels too thick and clunky in my mouth. But as Laura said, you just have to try some and see what suits you, A

I'm with Diane--when someone mentions "scientific studies," I want to see citations. I guess it's the writing professor in me, but if a student handed that to me, I'd be writing "EVIDENCE?????" all over the margins, A

Actually, Flamincomet, I did not bring up dual registration. In my post, #9, I just said that as a breeder I have a contract that states any pup I sell not be registered AKC, nor will it be bred to an AKC dog. In her post, #10, Christina then brought up the issue of dual registration, asking if I would have a problem with that. I responded that I did have a problem with dual registration. I said that for me, it is a deal-breaker, A

I was replying and it went away. Just as well. Picture me joining Julie in the head banging exercise, A

As I said, my position is just that--*my* position. It's really a philosophical decison on my part after having seen a number of things that I consider wrong with the AKC. Have you read "The Dog Wars" by Donald McCaig (Outrun Press, 2007 I believe is the date)? That may shed some light. Another enlightening experience might be "Pedigree Dogs Exposed." It is a British documentary made a few years back; it is available on Youtube, as far as I last checked. It looks at Kennel Clubs (whether it's the British version or the AKC--same difference) and the practices they condone. I would hope that you might look further into this issue, but if you don't, as already noted by the handy links provided, there is always someone out there who will sell a dog to anyone for any reason--no questions asked. When the AKC first recognized the border collie (I believe it was in 1994), I remember being told that they would keep the stud books open for 3 years. Well, guess what? They are *still* open. As far as I can see, the AKC has done nothing good for *any* breed of dog, but my particular issue (since I can't save the whole world) is with the working border collie. I've reached an age where I try as hard as I can to stand up for and live my life according to my convictions for those things I feel strongly about. And keeping the breeding of border collies in the hands of those who truly have the best interests of the breed at heart is one of those things, A ETA: I see while I was composing that Julie read through the Creekside site farther than I did. Good for Creekside!!

For me, dual registrsation would be a deal breaker. I simply do not want my dogs to go into that gene pool. I feel that I breed a top quality working dog. I do test hips and eyes, and socialize my pups like crazy, but I do not want them anywhere near the AKC. Now, having said that, while I would rather no money at all go to the AKC, if I have bred a dog and someone spays or nueters it and then gets an ILP # so they can do AKC events, I don't freak out. I would rather they not do that, but sometimes people can only get to whatever activites they can get to, and if AKC is it, so be it. As for "restricting the gene pool," there are SO many nice ABCA (or CBCA or ISDS) dogs out there to choose from, I see no need to lower one's standards by going anywhere near the AKC bred/registered dogs. An admitted elitist as far as border collies go, A

Yes--definitely depends. I am starting some 6 month old pups. I had them on the 3 "School sheep" a few times, then last week got the urge to put them on my whole flock (150+ including mommas and very small lambs). The first time I did that, they were indeed more thoughtful. By the third time I tried it (later that week), they were a little more rash, but still pretty darn nicely behaved on them. But the next time I take them out, I think I'll go for 15-20 or so. I like to mix it up a lot so the pups get a lot of different experiences. A

I don't think all of those criteria sound unreasonable, particularly if you don't insist on a specific protocol of early socialization. My only question would be, as far as future breeding, are you willing to sign a contract stating that you will not register the dog AKC or ever breed it to an AKC dog? A

I've heard this about avos for some years. I'm not sure what to think. I live on a ranch that has commercial avocado groves. I see lots of evidence that the ones that fall get eaten by the 'yotes for sure, and I know my LGDs eat their share, as well. When I take the border collies into pastures for a run, we often find pits, and the dogs crunch them up and eat them. We have several diferent varieties--Haas and Fuerete that I know of, not sure if there are others. A

Oh--I named her Pistol intentionally :-) I knew exactly what I was getting into. I like them with a TON of attitude. These are top working cowdogs, and they need that attitude for work. They just need to learn when they are young that they don't need to use the 'tude on *me* :-) A ETA: I had one some years back that I named Trubble. She was, indeed, but was also one of the nicest working dogs I've had.

Ha! Liz--I remember when Raskle (who was named appropriately) was maybe 8 or 9 weeks old. We were working on not rushing out the front door. I call the dogs one at a time, with a "Riddle ONLY," or "Tikkle ONLY" so that they know who is allowed to go through. Raskle kept rushing the door, and I would close the door and at the same time use my leg to block her from getting through it. After a few times of that, she got seriously PISSED and grabbed my boot, trying to tear it up. She was very serious about it. She got the scruff lift with the come-to-Jesus, which resulted in a whimper from her. She knew who was in charge thereafter. Her daughter, at maybe 13 or 14 weeks, was on the leash and we were walking toward the school sheep to have a quick little puppy work. I reached down to take off the leash to release her to go around them, and she was squirming to get loose. Well, that caused me to not be able to get the leash off right away. She got really pissed, and turned around to bite my hand, since that was what was impeding her from what she wanted. She, too, got the scruff lift and very stern voice. She stared straight into my eyes, never blinking or looking away, no whimper from her at all. I like 'em with a lot of attitude, but this one might really be a handful. She'll be 6 months tomorrow. Her name is Pistol :-) A

I agree with Sue on the scruff thing, only I'm not as nice as she is (I *am* sometimes known as the Mean Lady). For a pup who really doesn't seem to understand that *this* bitch is the one in charge (I tend to have a house full of bitches), I grab them by the scruff, pick them high up in the air, stare them in the face and give them a "who in the f*#k do you think you are! (otherwise know as a come-to-Jesus meeting)). Then I set them back done on the ground quite firmly. They know I'm pissed, and that what they did was totally not acceptable. There are a million ways you can get the message across--the message Donald gave about meaning what you say. The bottom line is--the pup needs to understand that you are the one who is in charge and calling the shots. You don't have to be mean or abuse the pup to make that clear, but the pup is obviously running the show here. It will only get worse. I know there are lots of people on here now who are into the whole positive only thing, but honestly, if that's not working, then you need to try something different. Do you have children? How do you let them know that you are the one making the decisons and calling the shots? How do you respond when they do something totally unappropriate? Dogs don't have language the way we do, but they sure can read people and other animals. They know who's in charge and who is not. This pup clearly has your number. As I said before, you don't have to be mean, or abussive--the pup just needs to *know* that you mean what you say. It just comes off as a vibe, I guess. Border collies are not for the feint of heart. They are way too smart to be in a household with people that they sense are not as on top of things as they are. I should have probably kept my mouth shut and just agreed with Liz. Sigh, A

"But I have noticed a couple of things with several dogs I've seen locally at clinics (or, less often, at trials) who have been trained to do both (typically agility first, then stockwork). First, I've noticed dogs who seem unsure. Their pace is slow. They don't seem to have "fire in their bellies" on their outruns. They hesitate, and often stop and look back at their handlers while on the field, without any "stop" signal having been given." While I would certainly think that learning agility first could lead to some of these behaviors, I also wonder if there might not be a genetic component to this--that is, if the dogs who demonstrate this behavior might be bred for sports, and therefore not bred for the caliber of work some of us might expect. I would think that a really well bred working dog would/could overcome some of this in the presence of stock. Just a thought... A

I'm a little hard core on the play thing, too. There are lots of toys lying around the house, including balls, but I don't throw them for the dogs. They play with them on their own. Like Julie, I let them be pups, but they absolutely must understand who is in charge, and need to understand a correction. Long walks and romps in pastures seem to suit them just fine. In the house, a quiet game of bitey-face is often ongoing in the evenings. Over the years I've had a few people come out with their dogs to try on stock and bring a ball to throw in between works. I ask them to put the ball in the car. I was taught that we don't throw balls or sticks in the "work environment." I've stuck with that rule for many years. I was at the old Lonestar Futurity some years back and saw someone throwing a Frisbee for their dogs in the parking lot before and after the competition. When those dogs were sent to gather the cattle (not very far, as it was in an indoor arena) and the cattle were very easily seen, the dogs ran out maybe 30 or so yards, and turned at looked at the handler expectantly--as if waiting for the Frisbee. They never did complete the small outrun to gather the stock. I agree with pretty much everything Kristi says. A

That's what I thought, too, Charlie. Although I would not have thought it was a particular gene, but perhaps just a lack of the "balls of steel" gene :-) A

"I for one (as a set out person) prefer for each packet of sheep to be exhausted if at all possible so that they don't learn they can run back to the set out. So if handlers are allowed to help their dogs, they should do so quickly and then fetch the sheep the exhaust as expeditiously as possible." Absolutely! Often, the course director will ask that the sheep be exhausted anyway, and it's much more beneficial for the handler and dog (and less work for my dogs, who are working their butts off, anyway), for the handler to hustle up the field to help the dog gather the sheep and exhaust them. But hustle is the operative word here... A

Yup--too much training for trials only, not enough real work. I realize not everyone is fortunate enough to have a lot of acreage or terrain to train their dogs, but making an effort to haul dogs out where they can learn some real skills is important. I'm lucky--I live on a ranch with rangeland, orange, and avocado groves--avocados are grown in steep, hilly ground, and are very dense with vegetation. Like Mark, at a fairly young age, I point them in the general direction of the groves when I know the sheep have escaped up there, and let the dog figure it out. If they are given time and some direction, they do figure it out, A

Alrighty then (as we used to say in the midwest). I was actually hoping for more details on the lines the pup is from--while the specific parents may not be trialling, I surely might know (or know of) the lines...or even who the mysterious mentor is . But it seems like you don't want to say, so...that's cool A

I guess I was looking for more specifics than that . Yes, my lines originated from Loren's dogs, A

Just south of Temecula--the very northern tip of San Diego county. If you're ever down this way, please come visit. So now I have to ask about the breeding--who will the pup be from? Since I live in your general area, and am very involved in the cattle working world, I might know of the parents, etc...just want to make sure you're really on the right track and not being BSd Oh, and make sure to check out the NCA--National Cattle Association. I put on a series of trials in the winter (when it's green and there are no foxtails!). You'll have to come and check them out. A

Hi, AerBear26--where in SoCal are you located? A