borderlicious

I don't have an epileptic dog or one with pancreatic issues, but I've been feeding my healthy dogs mostly prey model raw for about 7 years. I feed kibble sometimes - I certainly don't think kibble is bad. I also don't think raw is bad, but it's not necessarily a cure for all ailments. I'm sure some dogs do poorly on raw, but I've fed prey model raw to dozens of dogs of various breeds and sizes, and haven't had any issue with prolonged poor digestion or deteriorating condition. It's a good source of energy for my house dog, who tends to bounce off the walls if given a carb-loaded food or extremely calorie-dense kibble and no outlet to burn off the energy. The mouths of dogs who chew raw bones are undeniably healthier than the mouths of dogs who eat kibble and chew things like rawhides. My own pair of dogs illustrates it well for me - my border collie is five years old, has eaten raw most of her life, and has zero buildup of any sort on her teeth, no smelly breath, and perfect dentition with no loose teeth. My boyfriend's dog, who is the same age and was fed kibble and hide chews, has a disgusting brown/green mouth, the beginnings of gingivitis, and needs two extractions. I feel that even kibble fed dogs can benefit a great deal by being given raw recreational bones.

My dog is a garbage disposal. Prey-model raw, taste of the wild and various treats and food scraps that I give her throughout the day. She'll eat grains, she'll eat vegetables, she'll eat cooked or raw meat, bones, fruit... Iron stomach.

I do wish I lived closer, she looks like a lovely dog. I have a female who hates other dogs already, so management and rotation is a must and is easy for me...

Jumping on the side of "there's a kernel of truth to it" - as a young handler, after my first dog washed out for health reasons, I wanted a border collie to do dog sports with. I wasn't really thinking that I wanted the "easiest" dog out there - I merely liked the way the border collies interacted with their handlers. I liked that the people who put time into training their border collies didn't have to constantly play mind games and pull rabbits out of their bum to keep their dog focused. Easier? You betcha. And for me, a young kid who was new to the sport, it seemed more fun to have a dog that naturally enjoyed working as a team. I can't understand why there are "ABC" classes for relatively casual handlers. What's the point? What does having a border collie in the class have to do with anything? I also don't understand why people say they get so much more out of running non-BC breeds in agility. Perhaps if I had earned every agility title out there, gone to championships, and been so involved in every facet of the sport that I was bored with just running agility with a "plain old BC" (or sheltie, or aussie, or any nimble herding breed) and wanted the extra challenge such as running an English Mastiff through advanced courses, then I'd see what the ABC people are getting at. Most of these people are like me and have barely titled their dogs, so why do they need to hop up on their high horse and say they're better handlers because they don't run with border collies? Most of these people's runs would be riddled with handler mistakes even if they ran with one of those "easy" border collies. Cracks me up how many people lose sight of the fact that agility is a GAME.

I lost my childhood "heart dog" before I ever got a border collie. I dearly loved the dogs I acquired after she died, but I didn't feel that same level of understanding with any of them until I got Eve. She's been special from a very young age, for a number of reasons. She's my soulmate in dog form, and I don't know if I'll ever have this kind of connection with another dog. I consider myself so lucky to have had two of these special dogs in my life, in such a short period of time.

Completely awful. At times I wondered if the puppy was fake, or already dead, but it doesn't matter. The depravity of those who could laugh at something like that . . . It's beyond my comprehension.

Autumn: You sure can have your opinion. But we have the right to tell you that you're (in our opinions) wrong. Just as you have the right to ignore us, as you're doing right now. You would not believe the comments I've gotten about my dog from show people. That Eve is "ugly" and too leggy, that I starve my dogs because they aren't morbidly obese... I could go on and on, but frankly I don't care much about the things that show people (and these people were "friends", too!) have said about my beautiful, sound working bred bitch. Though I like her appearance a lot, it's on the bottom of the list of things I love about her. If conformation people feel entitled to call my dog ugly, I feel entitled to call their dogs ugly (or fat, or whatever). Let's face it, show people don't keep their mouths shut when they don't like the look of a dog. Why should I? I know you've said you're done with this thread but since you'll likely return to check the replies, I have to ask you what your goal is with Ghost. Why show in conformation at all? To have the pet dog you love picked apart because of his looks? If he doesn't win, you'll feel bad. If you take all of their crap to heart, you'll feel bad about your dog too. Why bother with all that if he isn't going to be bred? I just don't understand why you would put a championship on a dog, just to neuter him. Back OT: That Beauceron... I don't care how weird the judge was, for a breed that's supposed to be fearless, that was a pretty sad display. And that is the individual that is shown to the world as the best of its breed? Please. I loved that little Beagle and it was nice to see an Aussie that was relatively dog-shaped and not built like a fat, hairy merle Rottweiler.

"Ditto" everyone else's comments, thank you for the update!

Frankly, Autumn, you need to relax. I've been in your shoes, I started out with a half show-bred dog, and I thought every comment in regards to show dogs was a direct attack on my Dakota. It's not. Frankly, those dogs ARE fat. Not Ghost, not all dogs with show lines behind them, but those dogs in that video. Dakota's a half-brother to your Ghost, and he is a hell of a good dog. He (along with my folks' dog, Dash) is probably "show quality", but I choose not to show him because I don't care to support that industry and those activities with Border Collies. Dakota wouldn't like standing still in a ring, he likes to do agility, do goose control on golf courses and move sheep and ducks around on occasion. There are so many other fun things you can do with your dog that you both will enjoy more. Agility, obedience, some very basic stock work... Something that requires more out of the handler and dog than looking pretty. You'll feel so much more satisfied when you are successful at something that requires effort and brains from both the dog and handler! Conformation shows are supposed to be an evaluation of breeding stock. What's the point in showing if you aren't going to breed the dog in question? It's not that much fun, really. It can be quite hurtful, and I say this because if you are taking this thread personally, what are you going to do when a judge dumps your dog or says he's a bad example of the breed based only on his appearance? I can vouch for the fact that showing in conformation is quite expensive and time consuming. Why not do something more fun with your time and money?

My dog's rear is level with and sometimes (depending on her growth) lower than her shoulders. Doesn't affect her ability to work at all.

Welcome! I live right outside Casa Grande. Your pup is gorgeous. I, too, am inclined to think Aussie mix simply because of her head and face shape, but it's awfully hard to say. She's a good looking dog, no matter what she is! I say go for it if you want to try her on sheep! You never know, she might enjoy it and you probably will too.

These handlers weren't dressed as oddly as some of the toy breed handlers were! There's full coats, and then there's fat. Without having my hands on them, I'd say those dogs are just plain fat. I have a dog with a really thick coat, but even when he's blow dried and fluffed out, he doesn't look nearly as chunky as those dogs do. I'm always amazed at the condition or lack thereof of the dogs I see at shows. Any breed. ETA: That red dog disturbs me greatly. Wow.

OMG! I know. I'm just getting over losing my voice and I have never been more thankful for the fact that Dakota and Eve have a recall and down whistle on them. I have to keep the other two close, or they'll never hear me.

I can't wait to read it!

The training discussion is being covered, but what about breeding? I truly think that a lot of dogs are the way they are due to their breeding. I hate to make this another "nit picking" post because someone who owns a dog like the ones described will undoubtedly take offense. But it's my opinion that most dogs bred for sports like agility and flyball have virtually no impulse control. They're wound up so tight that they need those little obsessive or obnoxious behaviors in order to release some of their nonstop energy. Training these dogs out of certain behaviors is often difficult because they often don't have the mental ability to shut out their impulses. They're bred to react quickly without much thinking, and that's exactly what they do. I notice a similar trend in the show-bred dogs, too. I couldn't agree more with Bill, particularly on point #3 about people providing their Border Collies with constant stimulation, then being surprised when the dog is unable to handle living without something to focus on. It's crucial to teach a dog with an active mind how to deal with boredom. I agree, too, that over-permissive owners are often the cause of poorly behaved pet Border Collies, as are owners with lifestyles poorly suited to the breed.

Hmm, hard to say since I haven't had a lot of BCs. My males are more assertive and protective than my females. When someone comes to the door, Dakota stands by our sides and growls, and Buddy would bark until he saw it was a friendly person. When someone comes into our house, Dakota makes it pretty clear that he considers himself superior to the intruders and usually doesn't want them to fawn over him until he gets to know them. Eve and Dash are submissive and affectionate to everyone. Eve and Dash are more snarky than Dakota and Buddy. They aren't nearly as patient with other dogs, but they are FAR more patient with people. This could be because they're young. I'm not sure at this point.

Kind of. Eve goes virtually everywhere with me out of necessity. I alternate between Dash and Dakota when it comes to who gets to go places with Eve and I - Dakota actually prefers to stay home, so I'd say 75% of the time, it's Dash that goes with us. I don't see a "difference" in my relationships with the dogs, really, because we've always done this. Eve and I have the strongest bond, but I'm positive that it's because she and I spend so much time together.

PS - I agree Jean is very cold and dry when it comes to addressing dogs in "Culture Clash", but I'd rather underestimate my dog's mental and spiritual capacity than overestimate it and expect more from my dog than she can give.

3. In multi-dog households, "support the hierarchy" by giving presumend dominant animals patting, treats, etc. first, before giving the same attention to presumed subordinate animals. THIS is so true. I dole out attention and food based on who is being the most passive and calm at that moment. 4. Dogs hav an innate desire to please. Truthfully? After living with Eve I can't say there's no such thing as a dog that wants to please their owner. Eve wants nothing more than to know she's done right and that I'm happy with her. 6. If you pat your dog when he's afraid, you're rewarding the fear. Yes and no. With some dogs, acknowledging the fear at all is a bad move. With others, giving attention and consolation with the right timing can be useful. Key words: right timing. Not while the dog is flipping out, but in the exact moment that the dog calmly addresses the fear, prior to the freakout. 10. You can't modify "genetic" behaviour. Again, yes and no. You could modify a Border Collie's behavior so the dog wouldn't even look at sheep when put in a pen with them, but if you exit the picture and the dog is left on its own with the sheep, instinct will overtake a trained behavior. Same goes with dogs bred to protect, IMO. They might be fine with you standing right there, holding their hand, but how do you know they'll be okay without your guidance? It takes some really superb training to RELIABLY overcome a chain of behaviors that forms an instinct. I love Jean Donaldson. +1 for Culture Clash.

I got my pup from a longtime member of these boards. Couldn't be happier with my dog and I'm eternally grateful to her breeder for taking a chance with me, and giving me so much support and advice on raising and training my first sheepdog. I don't breed, but if I did I personally wouldn't be opposed to placing a pup with someone I "know" through a message board, provided I had the opportunity to speak with them over the phone and get to know them through e-mail. I have a bit of a phobia about shipping dogs in cargo and would want them to come and pick up the puppy in person, though.

I shave bellies, chests, the insides of their rear legs, and the hairs beneath their tails. It helps keep them cool during the summer and also helps them cool off faster if they lay on a damp towel or cool bed. I wouldn't shave their backs or sides, personally. Not only does it look bad (IMO) but the fur grows back coarser and thicker, and even more of a pain for the dog to deal with in the heat. Once you shave, you probably always will need to shave. Try the "furminator". It'll take out a lot of the excess undercoat and leave your dog with a lot lighter coat. Making sure her coat is brushed and clean will also improve air flow to the skin and help her stay cool.

Dakota: 20" and 40lbs Dash: 19" and 25lbs (there's nothing to her under all that hair!) Eve: 19" and 27lbs

Robin, I don't have a ton of time to post but I wanted to say THANK YOU!!!! The issues you had with Moss are very similar to the issues I've encountered with Eve, except I'm pretty sure her flaws are tied in to mine as a handler. She does a lot of diving and gripping, not hard like Moss, but it still flusters the stock. I'm thinking it's just a lack of confidence, and I probably add to the tension by getting tense myself in anticipation for an explosion of sheep all around me. Loved seeing Moss work. I have bits and pieces of a crappy video of Eve that I'll piece together later.

Ghost is really cute, Autumn! IIRC he's a half-brother to my dad's Dakota?

First dog as a child: Chow/Lab mix. First dog of my own was a wolf hybrid. First dog as an adult: I'm not an adult. Why a BC? I was first drawn to the breed because of their biddable nature and devotion to their handler. Did you do research? I did lots of research before getting Eve. Not a ton before getting Dakota. First BC - Dakota, got him in September '04. What made you want to get another? It didn't really occur to me to get another breed. I wanted a dog that would be a competent worker despite my silly novice mistakes as a handler, and I feel that Border Collies have the most natural ability as a breed. Plus, I was already quite fond of the breed after having lived with Dakota. What have you done with your dogs? With just the BCs? Agility, therapy, obedience, freestyle, goose eradication, a little stockwork (soon to be a lot more), and Eve is my service dog. How many BC's? 4. How many do you have now? I have one of my own (Eve) live with two (Dash, Dakota) and share one in Washington (Buddy) What "quirks" have you noticed with all your dogs? Oh, too long a list to name. Eve isn't really quirky but Dash and Dakota sure are. City dog or county dog? Suburbanite. More of a city dog than a country dog, at the moment. Would you ever get another breed? Yep, I plan to get a larger dog at some point.