Little Bo Boop

My suggestion would be to start out by worming your dog, with fenbendazole and pyrantel pamoate. Parasites can def. cause periodic loose stool, and oft times this alone will remedy the problem. I'd also get him on a good probiotic. A b12 supplement wouldn't hurt and as I always suggest NAC. Giving pumpkin etc...might fix the immediate issue, it's only temporary, you need to address the the problem, what's causing the diarrhea. Another supplement I'm using now is berberine, it's excellent for gut health, but when you first get on it it can cause looseness and some gastric upset, that scares some folks, so I wouldn't recommend it unless you're willing to deal with a couple days of possible loose poop and a bit of a belly ache. All my dogs are on all of these supplements, and my husband and I take the same (to include the wormer!) I won't give my dog/s anything that I won't take. Good luck with the puppers!

Glad to hear he's doing better! I would still consider putting him on the NAC, you can get it at most health food stores or online on Amazon, Iherb, vitacost, even walmart. I recommend the Now brand. It's fairly inexpensive and def. worth it. Continued quiet nights to you guys!!

N-Acetylcysteine. Here is a quick rundown of some of the benefits of NAC. Myself, my husband and all my dogs are on it, as well as a good many of my sheepdog friends. It's a gamechanger. A friend of mine had an older dog that was slowing down, she put him on NAC and a couple other supplements I recommended and within 2 months she won her first Open trial at a pretty tough trial here in Texas. As an aside, my dogs and myself contracted bartonella, and NAC was crucial for our recovery. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/nac-benefits#TOC_TITLE_HDR_9

It sounds like a UTI. I had the same issue with my 15 yr old Bill a couple of years ago. In elderly humans UTI's can present as dementia, same goes for dogs. Acting disinterested, barking at night is a big one, staring at the door or other objects. The fact that your dog goes out and there is scant urine is also a clue. I would get him checked for a UTI, in the mean time make sure his teeth are good, bad teeth/gums equal kidney problems or heart problems. I would also consider putting him on NAC, it's an amazing hepatic and renal support and it does wonders with arthritic dogs (people too) at almost 16 my Bill can still jump up on the sofa, and if I'd let him he'd try to jump up in the truck. The NAC is also used for mental issues like anxiety OCD etc...my dogs get at least 2Kmgs a day. Also of note, I see he's on Gabapentin, there have been some studies that link gabapentin to UTI's in the elderly, so that might be something to look at as well. It might be all you need is a round of antibiotics to fix your kiddo. Luck!!

You are very welcome. If I can be of any help, feel free to pm me or email me. If it turns out it is biliary sludge, they will only prescribe a 'bandaid' in the form of synthetic bile (ursidiol) It's expensive and your dog will have to be on it for life. If indeed it is b sludge (which I have a pretty strong suspicion it is) I can share with you what I treated with, and it resolved it completely. Good luck with your puppers <3

"Wouldn't an infection of any internal organ show up in a CBC" No, not necessarily. My dog had the bacterial infection, Bartonella (pretty sure it caused the biliary sludge) and her blood work was pristine. There are a number of bugs out there that are what we call 'stealth pathogens'. What that means is these pathogens, be they bacterial, viral, fungal, basically go to an organ, or it can be tissue as well, but they set up shop, and shelter in either mucous or they encyst, and become encapsulated, the pathogen is then hidden from the immune system, also makes it difficult for ABX to get to them. I know the expense can get out of hand (trust me, I totally get that) but if I had a 12-13 yr. I would (and have) spring for the ultrasound. I paid about $300 a dog here in Texas, and they looked at everything. If you're going to be doing blood work every 3 to 4 months, well you do the math...seems it would be cheaper to get the ultrasound. All that being said, biliary sludge can cause pancreatitis, since your dog seems to be asymptomatic, your vet was calling pancreatitis going by blood work, correct? Biliary sludge is present in a lot of dogs, especially older dogs, it wasn't until they started ultrasounds on dogs as routine, that they started seeing it. Most dogs with biliary sludge are asymptomatic, until they aren't. Just like people who have gallbladder attacks, and end up having emergency surgery to remove the gallbladder, same thing happens with dogs. I would at least ask your vet about the possibility of b sludge, since she has no other explanation for the elevated enzymes...B sludge should be on her differential IMHO. I had to go to a specialist to get the b sludge diagnoses, so don't know if reg. vets look for that... I would urge you to look at a supplement called NAC. It's what I use on my dog/s (my husband and I are both on it as well) It resolved the b sludge in my young dog, and as it so happens it's also used for treatment of pancreatitis. It's also a very powerful liver support, and is used as treatment for Tylenol poisoning. I swear by this stuff. Here is just one abstract on NAC and pancreatitis. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51131605_N-acetylcysteine_in_acute_pancreatitis

Did he/she get an ultrasound? Billiary sludge will/can present as pancreatitis. It's basically an infection of the gallbladder. It's quite common in older dogs, I actually had it in a 3 yr old dog. They will prescribe synthetic bile, and eventual gallbladder surgery/removal. I opted for my own protocol and it was resolved in 3 months. I'd be happy to share my protocol with you if you like.

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Have your dog tested for Bartonella. Have the blood sent to https://cvm.ncsu.edu/research/labs/clinical-sciences/vector-borne-disease/. PM me or email me at boopster100@msn.com I'll give you my thoughts, for what it's worth :-)

My husband was an AF pilot, one day he was flying formation, when he got super disoriented, luckily he was in a 2 seat aircraft, and the other pilot landed the jet...he was taken off flying status for a year, while they tried to figure out what was going on with him. He suffered from nystagmus as well...he spent a lot of time at the aerospace hospital, where they did all sorts of tests on him, to include inducing nystagmus...they pour warm then cold water in your ear :-O. They never did find out what was going on, but it resolved itself, and he was able to fly again.

Yes, thanks, I saw that, the PTPRQ. It looks like the dobermans are born with the vestibular issues, and then they go deaf, that's why my vet suggested I get his hearing tested (I initially thought Hogan had a hearing problem, but I now attribute that to the vision issue) Pretty sure his hearing is ok. After thinking about this all night, I don't think congenital vestibular disease is the right diagnoses, at least I don't believe it to be the inheritable form (I'm assuming there is an idiopathic form?) If he had/has the inheritable form, then that would mean that both his sire and dam would be carriers for that gene as well, and I find that very hard to believe, I would imagine the odds of that happening would be slim to none. At this point I am at a loss...While I'm very happy that Hogan isn't in pain or suffering, very grateful for that!! It's very frustrating not knowing what or where this came from. I really would have liked to use him as a stock dog, but I don't think that's going to happen...the nystagmus really skews his vision (I believe) I'll still try him, maybe at some point his brain will adjust or adapt to the problem...

If you go back to the MDR1 thread, you will see that I posted about my pup that was suffering from nystagmus and what I thought to be some loss of vision. While I couldn't say nor did I know, if it could have something to do with the MDR1 issue, it concerned me, and I came here, hoping to get some answers. Well fast forward to today. after doing blood work, thyroid panels, and checking inner ears,(which all came back normal) I decided to take my 14 month old dog, Hogan, to an ophthalmologist. He did all the standard tests, ocular pressure, tear production etc...all tests were within normal perimeters. He didn't think Hogan had any vision loss, but rather, what I was seeing was his nystagmus, he thinks it probably makes it hard for him to focus, the nystagmus seems to be more pronounced when he's excited or nervous. The diagnoses is Congenital vestibular disease . Per vet: "There is no recommended course of action beyond examination of the ears and consideration of a neurology consultation. An underlying cause is unlikely to be determined in this case since thepatient is otherwise normal in every other way." We both agreed that a neurological consult would not really be warranted, as he suffers no other symptoms, neurological symptoms that you would normally associate with vestibular disease (thank god) no head tilt, ataxia, uncoordinated, nausea... So basically it is what it is...nothing we can do about this, no meds etc. to resolve this, hopefully he will adapt to this and maybe at some point I'll even be able to work him on stock (vet said it wasn't out of the question) regardless, he's got a home for life, and I'm just happy that he's not suffering or hurting from this condition. Now :-( this is something that is very concerning, "congenital vestibular disease has been determined to be an inherited autosomal recessive trait. " Now I have to ask, where did this come from? Have any of you come across such a thing in Border Collies? I've never heard of it...is there a DNA test for this? Sorry, but this is all kind of mind blowing for me... This is a vid. of Hogan, it was taken pre op for his neuter, no drugs had been admin. yet. This is the nystagmus, Nystagmus is defined as rapid, uncontrolled eye movement.

"Welcome to our sport, Mr. Drake. My strongest recommendation is to ignore the haters..." Totally off base with that remark. Nobody hates Steve and nobody hates TG. Steve is a very nice man, and 'on the right sheep' TG is a very nice dog. Although a novice handler, Steve actually handles TG quite well, the problem arises when the sheep are heavy, he can't lift or move the sheep...TG has a son running in TX right now, that is the same way...if the sheep are right he's golden, if they aren't, you're marching up the field to get your dog...The gentleman that ran TG at the BG owns that dog (the son of) he's also a very good handler, handling wasn't the issue with the dog not lifting the sheep, the issue was/is with the dog. My guess is in the UK, he'll probably clean up on the trial field, here in the US, on our sheep? not so much. I understand there are some TG pups out there right now, that were crossed on cattle dog lines, to put a little more juice in the mix...I hear the pups that a couple of friends have are doing quite well so far, but just yearlings... TG has been here for a while now, so it's not a matter of him just getting off the boat and not adjusting...I think it is a real issue, and I for one wish I had seen/known about it before I bought a pup from that line...Hey, nobody wants to hear negative things about their dog, but if you are putting your dog out there for stud, charging money, and people are putting their money and hopes on getting a nice working/trial dog, I think I think it only fair they have all the info. available, then they can assess, and make the determination on whether they want to get a pup from this line. I didn't know about any of these issues before I got my pup, had I known, I would most def. passed.

I give up. Thank you for your time. I said from the start I didn't intend to make a crusade out of this. I've said my piece, voiced my concerns, that's all I can do. I will however make my thoughts known within my own little sphere of influence, best I can do.

If you followed the thread, it was clear that Mark was referring to the the dog I was referencing, TG was the dog in question pretty much throughout the entire thread, and TG is an international champion, by way of winning the European nursery championship. As you said, I'm not being snarky, but do you know what dog we are talking about here? I fully admit to you that before all this came up, I thought all this DNA testing had gone way overboard, I have BC friends who are rabid about testing, they know every test, what they mean, all the tech. lingo LOL I knew CEA and that was about it...When this MDR1 thing popped up, I immediately thought oh, Ivomec sensitivity, no biggie, I always assumed you couldn't give Ivomec to Border Collies, no big life changer for me...well as it turns out, it's not just Ivomec, it's a myriad of other things, and from what I've read the list is growing, and the full impact of MDR1 is really still unknown. I think we need to be talking to the Aussie, Sheltie and Collie folks, see how they like having this mutation in their breed, and what kind of impact it has had on their dogs. From what I gather, the incidence of MDR1 in the US pop. of Border Collies, is/was very low, I believe it's higher in the UK. I'd be curious to see how many US dogs are MDR1 carriers. Also, keep in mind, this dog we are discussing, he was, at one time, I believe the 3rd leading sire in the world, they have bred the hell out of this dog. As a Border Collie owner, and as someone who LOVES the breed, this is what I would like to see from the ABCA, our steward of the breed. I would like, much like you did with the volume breeders list, information on the genetic defects that affect our breed. Yes, I know, we can always google things like that, but there's always the 'you don't know, what you don't know' . Give us a list of the issues, give us info. allow us to make informed decisions when purchasing a puppy. Had I known about this MDR1 stuff beforehand, I would not have purchased the pup I have now...and no way I would buy one in the future with that mutation. And as an aside, had I come on here, and read what Mark B. had to say, I would have merrily bought the pup, MDR1? not a problem!! Let us know! and don't talk over peoples heads, we aren't all science types, I don't know a heterozygote from a billy goat...explain things in terms we can understand, then we can make informed decisions. And lastly I would ask that you (not you personally) don't abuse or dismiss people that ask questions or bring up topics that maybe weren't on your radar, or that maybe you just don't think matter. Karen, might have been a bit abrasive in her approach, but she brought up a lot of good points, points that are worth looking into in my estimation, she tried to bring something to the board that she thought important, it impacted her, she has a pup from this line, she has a dog in the fight... I didn't always feel that way, but now I guess I have a dog in the fight as well... Final word, I don't know the impact of MDR1 on our dogs, it could be minimal could be nothing...but the thing is, we just don't know...I've seen enough to make me wonder, so if nothing else, IMHO it should be monitored, hell it doesn't cost anything, so what's the harm?

Eileen Stein, this is what concerns me...the attitude, "omg!! he's an national.international champion!!! he may have a genetic mutation, but he's an international champion!! and to be quite honest, I don't know Mark Billadeau, but I find him to be very condescending... "You are making quite a good case that these pups are unlikely to be bred and pass on whatever genes they might have. In fact, I question why anyone would be bringing bitches to this sire. " Good question!!! Personally, I saw him in an arena trial, thought he looked pretty good, owner said thanks!!! he was the European nursery champion! LOL just so happened a litter came up when I was looking for a pup...I had no idea about the genetic issues or the weakness issues at the time. I don't know about you and where you are, but it seems like it doesnt't take much to have a flavor of the month dog...happens in Texas all the time, I was at a trial in OK a few weeks ago, there were at least, at least! 20 dogs right within throwing distance that were all related...mine included.... The big thing now seems to be getting import dogs....HSweep seems to be the popular one now (of which I have a granddaughter of) I know a couple of folks have gotten pups by TG that were bred to cattle dog lines, (trying to beef up the power) they are still young, but so far they are liking what they see. One particular handler, someone you would know, has a pup that they quite like, however, 2 other pups in the litter have health issues, poor doers, liver problems... Yes, Denise did reach out to me, and I thank her for that. If you read my previous post, I said straight up, I wasn't going to make a crusade out of this. Karen Rabbit and I actually split the sheets over this issue, I thought she had gone totally overboard on this subject, but then I started to have problems with my pup, and then got to thinking about a pup that died (from the same litter) and got to thinking, maybe there is something to what she was saying. I don't pretend to know all the answers "But since you feel you have enough information to decide what should be done here, what is your recommendation?" and no where did I say that. I was totally up front, I'm not a scientist, doc, I don't do math...but I've been around a while, I have common sense, and when ever one of my dogs or a family member, gets sick, I start to research...I think there is enough going on here for the powers that be, to at the very least alert the membership about MDR1, that you don't know the complete story on it, that it is a fluid situation, and to use caution when getting a pup. I also wouldn't be opposed to seeing a page or some place you could go to record any issues you are having with one of these pups...I fully admit, MDR1 was not on my radar, was not a concern, thought it was much ado about nothing, but now...not so sure, and for me, I would not buy a dog that came from an MDR1 carrier, and I will urge anyone I know to do the same. Quote

I must say, I find it very concerning that the powers that be are more concerned about a high profile dog being taken out of the gene pool, then with trying to control if not eradicate a fairly serious genetic defect, a defect that I don't think we even know what all it could impact. You all are concerned about the gene pool, you don't want to diminish that gene pool of working dogs, fair enough. Let's look at the dog in question shall we? What is so outstanding about this dog? Why is it so important that we continue to breed to this dog. The dog in question came from the UK, from a very well known handler, the dog was the European nursery champion, in 2015 I believe. He won a handful of other nursery trials in the UK as well, but that's about it, that is it! Nothing else on his resume. Being a nursery champion really doesn't mean much, how many of you can recall who the nursery champion was (in the US) in 2015? hell who was it this year? So let's move on, the dog gets sold, comes to the US, to Texas, he has some success with his novice owner, in all fairness when the sheep are right, this dog is aces, but if they aren't, he is sunk, if the sheep are the least bit heavy you can forget it. Just this past spring, he was run at the Bluegrass, could not lift the sheep, a friend of mine ran him, and was mortified. And this isn't just a one of, this happens here in Texas too, the dog can't lift the sheep or can't move them on a drive. My friend who has a son of, has the same problem, if the sheep are right he's golden, but if not he ends up walking up the field to get his dog. And let me tell you, that is heartbreaking, my friend loves this dog, and it kills him when this happens. And we're not just talking about trial dogs here, I can't see where these dogs would be much use as ranch/farm dogs either, they just don't have what it takes. And there is a third thing that some of you may not know, these dogs (this line) are known for being very quirky, freaky :-O a lot have socialization problems, they are just very weird dogs. So I suggest we look at the big picture here, before we're so quick to poo poo the MDR1 issue in defense of some mythical champion sheepdog...oh, and don't take my word for any of this, do the research yourself...pretty easy to pull up the scores etc. of this dog and of some of his get...

No, I have not had him tested yet, planning on doing it asap. Before this episode with the nystagmus, I had not intended to test him, didn't see a reason to, as I had no intention of breeding him. This all just happened this past Thurs. so when the nystagmus occurred, (keep in mind, there has been something going on with his eyes since he was a pup) then I got to thinking about the pup that died, then talking to the person who knew of 2 littermates to her pup that " have undiagnosed issues, extremely poor doers/liver issues ". I don't consider myself a Henny Penny, but this all has def. given me pause...I'm in Texas, (where this stud dog currently resides) and right now I'd say you can't swing a cat without hitting a dog out of this line...I guess we'll see what turns up...I truly hope it's just all coincidental, and not related to the MDR1, I really do. Time will tell.

He was on no drugs that I know of, he had recently been dosed with strongid, not sure if that would cause anything...but now that I think about it, I'll have to look at timing, but there might be something to that (although it would seem unlikely) maybe not? From the research I've been reading, organs can be impacted by various drugs, substances, to include vaccines, (and I would think that puppies would be even more vulnerable )correct? I've seen several instances where the liver was impacted/compromised in MDR1 dogs, what I'm asking is, is it possible that, say, a thyroid could be injured as well? I'm really asking, I don't know the answer...and if something as simple as a vacc. could trigger that... From what I understand the thyroid is oft times the culprit in nystagmus. Now I fully understand that if it is indeed his thyroid, you still couldn't link that definitively to MDR1...but you can't rule it out either...If it's not his thyroid, then I'm at a loss as to what could be going on with him...

In the case of the pup that died, his sire was TNS and IGS clear, he (the sire) is MDR1 carrier. So if he didn't die of TNS or IGS, then what? Obviously you/we have no way of knowing, (although a necropsy was done) and I understand correlation does not prove causation, however I'm not sure how you can definitively say MDR1 does not fit with what MDR1 would cause (in either case, the pup that died, or my pup with the nystagmus) "Unless that drug has damaged the body..." and "there should be no lasting effects." I'm no scientist or doc. I shudder when I even see the word math, so I wouldn't even attempt to get into debate with someone like yourself, but I do consider myself to have an abundance of common sense, and I think this issue warrants looking into., (as do a couple of friends of mine in the animal science field ,not Border Collie folks) I am curious, how many dogs/pups (from this same line) cropping up showing issues as I described, and/or other health issues, with MDR1 being the only common denominator (yikes, math term :-O ) would it take for the powers that be, to look into or take notice? I don't plan on making a crusade of this, I really don't, it's quite clear from what I've seen, most board members seem to consider this a non issue...I think it merits notice, but I don't have the time and/or energy to go to battle over it...I'll make my thoughts known in my little sphere of influence and that's about all I can do. I'll let you know what the thyroid panel shows on the pup with nystagmus.

Haven't been on the boards in quite some time, but doing some research, this thread came up, so I thought I'd bounce a few questions off you all. I read the whole of the previous thread about MDR1, it was rather contentious at times, and I understand the emotion involved, with all parties. That being said, initially I was not too concerned about MDR1, I like most folks always assumed Ivomec was a no no for herding/collie breeds...It was only when I found out that that sensitivity had a name, MDR1, which stands for "multi" drug resistance, that it wasn't only ivomec. that it was a host of other drugs as well. I found out about MDR1 because I have a pup, that is more than likely a carrier, and possibly affected, I've not had him tested yet, but his grandsire (TG) sire, litter mate are all carriers. I admit to thinking that I thought Journey (OP of the other MDR1 thread) had gone off the reservation, in what I considered over the top concern about MDR1, I'm having to rethink that now. Full disclosure, I have a littermate to Journey's pup that is MDR1, I've had him since he was 8 weeks old, he's now just over 1 yr. old. It was shortly after he got his first vacc. I noticed there was something odd about him, I couldn't tell if it was his hearing or his eyesight...I finally settled on eyesight, I'm a photographer, so it really stuck out to me, like a sore thumb, when I would be taking pics of him, he would never look straight at me, but rather past me, even when he was playing with another dog, he wouldn't look right at them...I took him to my vet, asked her to look at his eyes, and she thought they looked fine, but said if I was concerned, I should take him to an opthm. I decided since he didn't appear to have any vision problems, I'd hold off. A couple of months ago, we started noticing that his eyes were getting kind of wonky, it was as if they were moving independently of each other (especially when he was nervous) it wasn't bad and he displayed no other symptoms so didn't think much of it...well fast forward to this past Thurs. took him in to be neutered (no brainer there) I get a pm from my vet, with a vid. of Hogan, eyes going side to side, very rapid uncontrolled eye movement, or nystagmus. He has no other symptoms, those that you would associate with vestibular issues, he appears (so far) healthy and happy...we pulled blood, it came back fine/normal, she checked his ears, clean as a whistle...running thyroid panel on him, should be back in a day or so. So that's my pup, Hogan. Hogan also had a male litter mate, that at 6 weeks (I saw him) appeared normal, healthy, fine...at about 8 weeks ( soon after he'd received his vacc.) when I went to pick up my pup, I didn't recognize the pup :-( OMG he had wasted away to nothing, his head had that ferret head look to it (what you would associate with TNS) the breeder spent a fortune trying to save this pup, but to no avail. Now all along, I had thought that surely that little dog had TNS (it's since been made known that his grandsire (TG) is also a TNS carrier. I have since been told that since the sire to my pup and the pup that died, is clear for TNS, there is no way that pup could have died of TNS, if that's the case, then would it make sense that it's possible he died as a result of the MDR1? I've since heard from a woman who has a TG pup, her pup is fine, but two of the pups in the litter have had ongoing health issues, poor doers, and liver issues. I don't know about you all, but I have grave concerns about this, and even more so, as this dog (TG) is about one of the most widely bred dogs on the planet...I understand the ABCA is limited with what they can do, with regards to the continued breeding of this very popular stud dog, but at the very least, I feel a very strong warning should be given with regards to this MDR1 issue, I think your average puppy buyer, is probably clueless with regards to MDR1, I know I was, and I try to stay informed about health issues on my dogs...Knowing and seeing what I've seen now, I don't think I would take a chance on an MDR1 pup. I think there is too much about it that we don't know...and as a person who loves Border Collies, that is very scary.

Ha ha ;-) I almost spewed my coffee on that one ;-)

LOL Brenda, not a dumb question, I looked at that myself ;-) not sure if it's a bit of debris from the feeder or a bird, not an eagle for sure...could have been a hawk or a Caracara though.

Ahhh, I couldn't part with little Frankie ;-) Plus I think you'd have to have a license to own her...she's registered as a lethal weapon, Ninja cat ;-) She's also a stunt cat...;-)

Ha ha ;-) This little angel?? Why she wouldn't hurt a fly, look at that sweet, gentle face ;-)