Marty&Abigail

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

But if I had to pick, I'd rather live with a dog in Germany. Germany is very dog friendly and there are A LOT of really well behaved pooches with responsible owners that don't ruin it for everyone else.

 

Maria

Me too!! Thats why next year when I get my laurea, I'll move to GB(not in Germany, but out of Italy)!

(well I hope so!!)

Originally posted by Black Watch Debatable:

Meanwhile, in Italy... [/QB]

that law is no more in use. The Government change it!!!

ahahhaah just talking about your dog's coat!

And the way coats can change during times..

great dog Zip! If you don't mind I posted your pictures in Border Collie Club Ticino Forum, because is really unusual the way he changed coat!And I wanted to show it to peaple in the forum, here it is http://www.forumcommunity.net/?t=2665527 thanx!

I know many Border COllies with yellow eyes.. they are NOT coward!!! they are realy lion-hearted.. great worker! :cool:

Mybe for "light" it means blue..

He is beautiful!!!!!!

Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:

All right, so here's a dumb question. Why do you need Border collies? Is there no native breed that already has the athletic ability for sports that can be honed for whatever you all need? Consider this:

 

The work the Border collie does is what MAKES it such a cool dog. We know this because the working dog has NEVER been bred thinking about, "Well, let's make these legs a little thinner or use smaller dogs." The only thing breeders think when they choose a dog for breeding is, DOES THE DOG WORK CORRECTLY?

No we dont' have a breed as the border collie in Italy e Ie don't need one, because I don't use Border Collie for sport. I work with horses and my dog stay with me.. and now she will star working with sheep.

Maybe you haven't read what I wrote.. but my friends BREED for working ability. So I don't understand why you are trying to explain to me what is a Border Collie.. and how it sould be breed. :confused:

 

This creates the dogs that have the build you are seeing. As you mentioned, dogs with stumpy legs and square builds have a hard time keeping up with sheep in the Border collie's traditional working environment - large fields and hillsides.

 

What a dog that works, HAPPENS to look like, is only a small part of what makes that dog able to work. If you breed for one small piece of that you won't bring back the working ability, you'll just have more conformation dogs that can't work that have slender builds instead of blocky builds.

yes.. I'm not saying that wee breed firt for morphology and than for herding. Our breeder that are good breeder, do the same reasoning that you have just did.

 

The only way to maintain working ability in a breed (which includes the temperament needed to do the job, the soundness needed to do the job, and the structure needed to do the job) - is to select only dogs that have DEMONSTRATED they have the working ability to do the job.

This is an UTOPIA! you know that.. you can use the same idea for any breed and any animal like horses. It's not like that, but I would like it very much. :cool:

 

If you don't have the trials and shepherd work to prove the working ability of these dogs, then I question whether there's a need to breed ANY Border collies. That's breed, not own. Many of us who aren't interested in breeding - or for whom it wouldn't be appropriate - buy dogs from working parents.

 

But I actually have heard of some trials in Italy, plus there's a European circuit and training opprtunities all over the Continent. They are not quite at the level as their UK counterparts but the trials are something that is catching on quickly, from what I understand.

I haven't said that we don't have trials!!!!!!!! We have fortunatly.. but not so many as in UK. But not all the breedes breed just dogs that win trials.. or we would have all dogs with the same parents!!

 

Your English is very understandable!

Originally posted by IronHorse:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marty&Abigail:

I'm not saying that! I'm like you a supporter of working line! I'm just saying, and I'm speaking for Italians dog, that we sould work to improve the conformation. Because agility, show and some bad farm breeder.. made very bad breeding. And I'm speaking about legs.. that are not enought strong for run, sometimes because too haevy and sometimes to thin.. and a body not enought strong for long day work.. We don't have so many shepherd here that breed border collies for working.. so we have to do in onother way. I'm not a breeder but I have many friends that are breeders, or that mate their dogs because of their herding ability. It not easy for me to explain it in English..

If I understand you correctly what you are saying is that the Italian Border Collies need to be bred to a "working conformation" and away from a "show conformation" and from the way you describe the situation with the Italian Border Collies overall, I would agree and it sounds like you all are in need of good working stock.

 

By the way I think your english is very good, its light years ahead of my italian and you bring an entirely new prespective to the boards.

You even have an accent [/QB]

sometimes i forget some "H" or I write some words in a wrong way.. It's just a long time that I don't write i English.. I'm here also to improve it! eheeh..

And to speak about this beautiful working sheep dog!

 

Yes you understood me correctly. But not just away from "show conformation" but also from agility conformation(to small, to thin, bad legs) and sometime from bad working breeder(health problems). So the only way sometimes.. is to work on the conformation together with herding ability. We are not farmer, and so are not some of the breeder that I know, but they are trying their best to breed good working dog, strong dog in the head and in the body. Good for herding, and also for agility and obedience.. because Border Collies couldn't be breed just for wotking here in Italy..The fanatic of Trials unfortunatly are not so much here in Italy.

Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:

Oh, I'm going to break a personal rule and respond to myself.

 

Marty&Abigail, here in North America, the breed was strictly a working breed for close to a hundred years. It's only been bred with appearance in mind for about ten years. We don't feel that breeding to make prettier dogs can possibly improve the breed. How could it?

 

 

That's why we are very passionate about keeping our working lines strictly bred for working. You just can't can't can't do both "brains and beauty" - the science just doesn't support it.

I'm not saying that! I'm like you a supporter of working line! I'm just saying, and I'm speaking for Italians dog, that we sould work to improve the conformation. Because agility, show and some bad farm breeder.. made very bad breeding. And I'm speaking about legs.. that are not enought strong for run, sometimes because too haevy and sometimes to thin.. and a body not enought strong for long day work.. We don't have so many shepherd here that breed border collies for working.. so we have to do in onother way. I'm not a breeder but I have many friends that are breeders, or that mate their dogs because of their herding ability. It not easy for me to explain it in English..

Originally posted by Miztiki:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marty&Abigail:

They want working dogs but also good looking.

I don't really understand this. What is considered "good looking"? Or do you mean conformation dogs who can work?

 

I ask because people here post lots of pictures (but not enough) of their dogs actually working, and they all look different, and they all are gorgeous. Different colors, coats, ear sets, sizes, shapes...

yeah, I mean good looking in comformation for working attitude. But I'm just speaking for Italians Border Collie. We have really ugly dogs, and when I say ugly.. I mean really ugly in conformation. Straight hock, they can't pucsh when they run.. well, is very difficult to explain in Inglish! Good looking I mean also light bones.. here there are too many "barbie dogs" really haevy. That's what I'm saying..

This is new to me! Barbie Collie.. I sould tell this tomorrow to some of my friends at the international Show in Milan! They will be there with theirs working Border Collie.. to get a good scor in morphology.

 

What some of my friend are trying to do here in Italy, is to get "Brain's Beauty" BC, not just brain before beauty. I think is not so bad. They want working dogs but also good looking. We don't have so many shepherds that want a border collie to work.. so we have to find a compromise sometimes.

 

But I like this name for just show border collie.. so perfect, so untrue.. ahahahaha

what about mating two white/red border collie? could it be a problem? I know that some shepheds in england say that it is not a good thing..

Peaple here in Italy thinks that a dog with yellow eyes works better than a dog with brown eye.. the same is for straight ears.. that are more "wolfish" and so the sheep are more afraid..and the dog works better.

but I don't think the same.. I was wondering if I was wrong or not.. I think that are many the factor that make a dog a good worker!

I'm glad You think the same..

Originally posted by laurie etc:

Personally, I think it's what's "behind the eye color" that counts! There is no "standard" for working Border Collies in ISDS or American working registries - just in the conformation kennel clubs.

Also, When you mention light eyes and sun, I think the reference may be to blue eyes, vs. a shade of brown. I HAVE seen blue eyed dogs squinting in the bright sunlight, but never noticed squinting in my yellow or light-brown eyed dogs any more than my dark-eyed dogs.

I agree with you.. Maybe is just the blue eye that have problem with the sun. but do you think there is difference between yellow and brown when they are working? I mean for Sheeps..

Hi! My first "real" topic.

I want to ask you a question.. that I can't really ask in Italy, I will cause a real big war between people with working dogs and people with show dogs.

Do you think that the eye color in working dogs can do the differece while working? I will try to explain my self better. A dog with yellow(or light) eyes put more pressure on sheeps than a dark eyed dog? I thought it was like that(because they told me).. until I looked for enlish champion dogs on the web.. and all dogs have brown eyes. All the working standard say.. "brown eyes"(in shepherd and in hunt dogs). Not only the BC's standard. I'm reading a very good book about morphology in breeding, and they say that a light eye is more sensitive than a dark one? So.. maybe it's better for working dogs to have dark eyes, so the sun can't cause problems. Someone reply: wolfs have yellow eyes!In nature is not a problem.

That's right.. but wolfs hunt in twilight and during the night.. so they don't have the "sun problme".

Our Border Collies have to work during the day.

:confused:

What do you think?

I think that is not the eye that does the difference betweed a very good dog and a medium one.

(sorry if my english is not very good, I'm trying my best!! :cool: )

Hi! this is a really interesting post.. I don't like merle dog very much, even if some of them are really nice dog. But I don't really belive that they can't work sheeps. I know that in old times, they weer killed in Uk.. because they where considered a failure in the breed.

These uk breeder that you are talking about Laura Cunningham bought some of her dog from Astra Sheepdog breeding and training centre:

http://www.sheepdogsforsale.com/

Janet Bale the owner is a great trainer, and she breed for herding ability. Just go and see the web site..