paddyCA

People don't post their images there, actually Google pulls them the same way they pull search results and both copyright and free material is brought up when a user searches. Just have a quick look through the page you plan on taking the image from (it is in the frame below the image) and see if there is any copyright information for it. Simple as that.

I stated this way back in this thread, I guess it was missed.

Ok, it's impossible to regulate ethical breeding in any Border collie registry- you've proven that point well. I'll stop asking questions now.

How are they different? I'm not asking because I think they're the same and want to argue, I don't know and would truly like to.

Hmm. I only want to touch on the political aspect lightly simply because I'm not as educated as most of you regarding the Border collie registries. I wasn't suggesting titles per se must be obtained by a Border collie before he/she is bred rather some sort of guideline to determine working ability (which wouldn't omit farm/ranch dogs because I realize their importance); also, not to follow the SV to a T but model the BC registry rather loosely after it because I do realize that working BCs are tested differently than working GSDs. Something along those lines should be possible? I don't know how the dogs should be tested, you tell me, you are the trialers.

The SV did set forth the rules to which Schutzhund trials must adhere, the standard for the different tasks the dogs must pass. They don't organize all of the trials but have clubs to do that- the trials are then judged by members of the SV.

The reason I don't understand the logic behind "rules = registry falls apart" is because I've been a German shepherd "person" (working dogs, NOT AKC) for the past 15 years or so. Their breed club, the Verein f?r Deutsche Schaferhunde or SV, is the largest single breed club in the world. It's been around for nearly 100 years and how did it begin? The founder and his board layed down very strict breeding regulations- breeding dogs were and still are required to have Schutzhund titles (the GSDs temerament and working ability test) a passing conformation rating and eventually hip ratings. If dogs were bred without these things they weren't registered with the SV, plain and simple. So it is possible and wow has this club ever persevered. (I'm not taking into account the problematic American/AKC GSD side of things, that is a whole other entity and (not literally) breed. The GERMAN dogs and American dogs bred to SV standards, not AKC, are the parallel to the working Border collies and USBCC. Yes, there is a huge GSD overpopulation problem here in the states but find me more than a handful of dogs registered with the SV in rescue/shelters.) Google SV+history+German shepherd and see what I mean. Why isn't something like that program possible? The breeders didn't run away when regulations were placed on them, they stayed and adhered. Germans! Now talk about stubborn and set in their ways (I'm German and so is my family so I can say that ) I could be an idealist about this situation though, it wouldn't be the first time. God knows, the SV is not perfect and has it's issues but it is an example of how a single breed registry with strict rules has lasted nearly a century and continues to go strong. FYI: http://merriamwebster.com/dictionary/appease I generally give the first entry the most importance.

What was said then? I remember something to the tune of "Why can't rules be set into place to prevent this and that?" and the reply was akin to "Because this and that breeder won't accept rules put on their breeding programs. Who are you to say so and so can't have x amount of litters?" I'm not too angry to see the point, I'm not angry at all. I just haven't been adequately convinced that these rules won't help. I'm not a rescue zealot who thinks no dog should be bred, I believe in moderation and wish a medium could be found somewhere to fix this problem in our society. There is no way to salvage that darn thread?

Ok then let's talk about USBCC, I wasn't speaking of ABCA in particular anyway. Is it really just a lost cause? Will we always have this "bad breeder" problem? (Please note, I am not trying to be derogatory or antagonistic with any of my posts and comments, I am truly wanting your opinions on this subject.)

How is that bizarre? In the original thread it was said that rules and regulations regarding ethical breeding aren't put into place because the big hats don't like them. When someone doesn't like something what do they do? Complain. The lack of regulations appeases these breeders, making them content with the no rules. Look it up, "appease" is used in the right context. That's great. No one ever said they shouldn't be strived for. I'm very much an advocate of working dogs being bred solely for working, just as much as you or any other devotee on this board. That's a shame that you feel the plight of the rescue and shelter situations are merely "hijacking" your more important matters of paperwork and politics. I don't know how often they've "hijacked" in the past but this thread began with questioning poor breeding practices. I don't see how it is irrelevant. As I said before, I think priorities are askew. I'm not at all against breeding, only unethical and/or unneeded breeding and buying. I also don't think my opinions are the only ones to be considered. Quite the opposite actually. That's what I was looking for- opinions on WHY rules and regulations are omitted just to give the big important breeders what they want, while ignoring the dogs truly in need. Why don't these breeders lighten up and accept a few rules that really don't affect them anyway, since they abide by them with responsible breeding? Wouldn't this PREVENT the bad breeders from producing yet MORE unwanted dogs? Now -that- is bizarre as I have no idea where it is coming from or the relevance to the issue at hand. No, it's not ok if pups are drowned? I don't remember anyone saying they advocated that.

Thanks for the suggestions guys- if you have more, do post, but I'm sure these will keep me busy for a bit .

Hopefully this thread is placed in the correct forum, it seems so to me. It will be several years in the future until I have the means or the dog to begin pursuing my herding interests. With getting my first border collie (rescue) eight months ago, I am only beginning to immerse myself in the breed and its culture. I'd like to get a few books though that would generally enlighten a beginner with respect to herding. Not so much "this is how you train a herding dog" manual but something that would give me a general overview of the different aspects. Have any good recommendations? Of course, in addition to reading the wealth of knowledge here which I am wading through in my spare time. Thanks!

Stephanitz had a lot of wisdom towards working dogs- I've been trying to get my hands on a book he wrote back in the twenties on the German shepherd, not much luck. Certainly most of what he has to say can be applied to Border collies. Loving both of the breeds I can easily see that they share the same plight with preserving the true working dog. A lot of damage has been done to the GSD and it is an image of what the Border collie will face in the years to come due to the AKC and stupid breeders. Julie is correct, the German lines of the GSD still aim to produce true working dogs although not all of them. In Germany they have their own "show dog" group also that are the antithesis of the breed, just not as extreme as the American show dog. They even have a "working" trial as part of their annual Sieger show for their show dogs but the trial is greatly warped to disguise the dogs who can no longer work as great workers. Only breeders who strive to produce Stephanitz's ideals are the worthy ones. It's utterly disgusting what the AKC has done to the GSD, literally crippling it (physically and mentally) in their idea of "beauty". Fortunately the Border collie hasn't suffered to this extent but is well on its way. There are many many GSDs in this country and around the world who still embody Stephanitz's vision and their advocates are just as loyal as the working Border collies'. (This is a touchy topic for me! Thanks for posting that quote Kate.) "The breeding of Shepherd Dogs is the breeding of Working Dogs, and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce Shepherd Dogs." v Stephanitz "We cannot tell from the exterior what value a dog has for breeding purposes, either from his expression, his body-build, or from his achievements." v Stephanitz Truer words never spoken.

Eileen, I've read that post a few times over and you couldn't have summed up the essence of the Border collie more eloquently. I don't believe anyone could argue with it.

I just can't understand why people try to breed a dog for something it was not meant to do. What's the purpose and the rationale behind it? It's like trying to cut a steak with a fork, and trying to convince everyone else to do it too- get a knife! If you want a pretty show dog, get a Yorkie! These breeders are not bettering the breed by adding optimal dogs, capable of excelling in herding , to the gene pool so obviously they aren't breeding for the breed's sake. They are breeding for their own whims or to try to have the prettiest dog, and with all of the homeless dogs doomed to be euthanized, frankly this is criminal. That's really nice that you love your dogs and you give them good homes and they like sheep, but loving your dogs and thinking they are beautiful does not validate breeding them. I really do hope you can take your devotion to the breed and direct it towards something more conducive. People who -truly- care for the breed know what makes these dogs so special and aim to continue only that. Ok, off my soapbox!