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Everything posted by KelliePup

  1. Actually, vets are still debating on whether it is safe or not and have evidence to support both sides, so even the vets don't agree on this. Therefore, it has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with personal belief/preference. The rescues in my area will and do spay/neuter surgeries as young as 8 weeks. The only requirements are healthy and of sufficient weight. So the question is about growth and hormones and their role in the growing process, that is what is still being debated with no clear answer when last I looked. One might even argue that 6 months isn't safe and to wait a year. Or two years so the growth plates settle.* It's like a balancing act between unproven health risks and accidental/unethical breeding risks and there isn't enough concrete evidence in either direction to make a scientifically informed decision. What good is a list going to be? The damage is still done. Look how many times Swafford was shut down only to start up again in another state. Everyone knows, but it is profitable, so the problem persists. To that type of person, even a spay/neuter deposit isn't going to work because of potential gains. Not to mention that registry organizations don't really care how the puppy came to be as long as the parents were registered. That alone brings these puppies, who might be the sorriest excuse for the breed ever seen, out of the realm of "just a dog" and into the realm of prestige. These people don't care about bettering the breed, all they see are dollar signs marking the puppies' fur. Then, there are people who might think they have that one in a million agility dog, they have the wins, and the line needs to be continued, so they "breed responsibly" in their mind, but, in actuality, end up hurting the breed as a whole, and all the while thinking they are different than the people just breeding for profit. With border collies, here's the secret, because they are not breeding for the working ability, they are every bit as bad to the breed as those puppy mills. The only way to be sure the puppy won't be bred is to have it altered before it goes to it's new home. Outside of rescues, what's the likelihood of that happening? Is it really fair then to condemn those breeding for the right reasons if one of their sales is used for a future breeding? That brings us to educating people, and even then, not every one listens. *My personal preference is to spay/neuter later because I personally believe hormones play an important role in maturation, especially concerning growth plates; however, I understand the other part of the argument.
  2. The contracts really aren't worth much if it is to a dishonorable person. We run into trouble with that in the past in rescue. The only way to ensure no breeding of those dogs is to spay/neuter before they are sold.
  3. ROTF I would love to see that!! Thing is, human motivations are often contrary to learning theory. They like autonomy... That's why I have dogs and not kids.
  4. LOL She still does. I'm waiting to get this year's picture back from the club photographer... I'm surprised she and Mav haven't attacked me in my sleep!
  5. Very nice Danielle! This is one of my all time favorites of Kayzie. Taken at the 4H fun match, my niece was showing her. And one from our Texas trip before the snake bite (she's fine now BTW, didn't want to give the wrong impression) Just so you can see what she's looking at... (and it speaks volumes) Last one, one of Maverick being Maverick
  6. What? No comments about Santa employing border collies in his workshop?
  7. Completely normal The "bull" behavior sounds like a scent marking behavior. Very cute and not a big deal. You can catch that and put it on cue to "wipe your feet." If I were you, I'd probably start getting a handle on the "ambush" pounce. It's cute right now, but it could be a problem down the road.
  8. Glad to hear she's home! Ummmm... If I were you, I would probably be looking for a few other opinions. The numbers for how long she'll be contagious and the proposed schedule for vaccinations are, IMHO, way off. Most puppies, around my area at least, are completely vaccinated by the time they are four months old. It can also be very psychologically damaging to a dog to not socialize her until she's 9 months old. Frankly, from a behavior standpoint, by then it's too late. I recommend you read the information I posted in your other "Socialization" thread. Hopefully, it will help you, and, seriously, check with a few other vets. Second and third opinions are the best thing I ever did for my dogs.
  9. 7 months is very extreme. I'm not sure where your vet is getting that information at all. Once a puppy recovers from parvo, that puppy can still be contagious to other dogs for 2-6 weeks. This means that the virus itself is shed in the fecal matter of the puppy and can be picked up orally (eating the fecal matter or even licking someplace that had been exposed) by another unprotected puppy. Once the recovered puppy gets a negative on the parvo test, that puppy is no longer contagious to other puppies or dogs Unless killed, the virus can remain in the soil and on other surfaces for a year. Bleach is the best way to kill the virus on surfaces, but it won't do you any good in your own yard. Best suggestion there is to not have any puppies over who have not been completely inoculated against the virus. Some very good information on parvovirus can be found on this Informational Sheet Below is the same shelter's guidelines for parvo risk and socialization. It makes a very, very good point about the balance. If you don't socialize, you will have issues for the rest of your pup's life. Before I leave you to delve into the sheet, my 5 year old, Maverick, is a parvo survivor. I cared for him at home and researched the dickens out of this virus when he came up positive. He was back out and socializing a week after he tested negative (extra week was my decision). ETA: RTF versions of the info sheet and the socialization and parvo risk guidelines are at the end of this post and, I believe, can be downloaded. Socialization and Parvovirus Risk Sheila Segurson, DVM UC Davis Shelter Medicine Program Parvovirus Parvovirus is a highly contagious virus which causes vomiting and diarrhea, and often leads to death in susceptible dogs. Parvovirus is a very durable virus, and can remain in the environment for many months (ref). Parvovirus is primarily spread to other dogs by the fecal-oral route, however it can be spread on hands, feet, clothing, tools, rodents and flies traveling from kennel to kennel. Dogs may carry the virus on their fur and feet even if they themselves do not get ill. The virus enters the dog through the nose or mouth and has an incubation period of 3 days to 2 weeks (usually 5-7 days). Because of the incubation period (up to two weeks), it is ideal to quarantine high risk dogs that enter the shelter for two weeks in order to ensure that they will not spread the virus to other at-risk puppies in the shelter. Vaccination will greatly reduce the risk of dogs becoming ill with parvovirus, however no vaccine will protect 100% of animals. In puppies, maternal antibodies interfere with the ability of the vaccine to provide a long-term effect. If the bitch was vaccinated for parvovirus in the past, she will give antibodies to her puppies, via her milk (colostrum). Maternal antibodies gradually wear off, and become ineffective in most puppies between four and sixteen weeks. In young puppies, maternal antibodies protect them against disease; however vaccinations will NOT WORK while maternal antibodies are present. The picture below was adapted from Greene's Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat. The picture demonstrates how maternal antibodies ('mean antibody titer') decrease over time, and how vaccinating while maternal antibodies are higher than the 'minimum titer to block vaccine' will not protect puppies. Because of this risk, we recommend vaccinating shelter puppies every two weeks until they are 18 weeks old, in an effort to make the 'window of susceptibility' as small as possible and to increase the likelihood that our vaccine protocol will protect our shelter puppies from parvovirus. Vaccinating more often that every two weeks is not effective. Once maternal antibodies are no longer a factor, the vaccine protects the puppy against parvoviral infection within 2 to 7 days; one vaccine will protect the puppy against disease in this situation. (No "booster" per se is needed with this vaccine.) This may occur at any time from the first vaccine to the last, depending on the amount of maternal antibody the puppy received. Behavior/Socialization The primary socialization period of puppies is between 3 and 13 weeks. This period is critical for development of primary social relationships with humans and other animals. Puppies that are confined during this period are significantly more likely to develop behavioral problems (primarily fear and aggression) than puppies that are provided a socialization program. Puppies isolated from conspecifics (other puppies) until 16 weeks of age, were significantly more likely to display fearful behavior and be aggressed upon by other pups. They were unable to develop a positive relationship with other dogs Puppies raised in isolation until 16 weeks lose the capacity to exhibit playful behavior toward strangers. Previous research demonstrates that socialization is a critical step in the development of behaviorally healthy dogs. Puppies with parvovirus die within a few weeks of contacting the virus; puppies with behavior problems die within a few years. Because of the temporal disconnect between acquiring the disease (behavior or parvovirus) and mortality, the need to develop comprehensive socialization programs in puppies is often underestimated. Dogs surrendered to a shelter are most likely to have been initially acquired from a shelter. This data does not reveal whether the relinquishers valued the dog less because they obtained it from a shelter, whether they returned it because of behavior problems which started before they obtained the dog (in the shelter or before entry to the shelter), or some other factor. A recent study demonstrated that puppies who attended socialization classes were more likely to be retained in their homes than those that did not. Behavioral problems are the primary cause of relinquishment of dogs to shelters. Thus, they are also the leading primary cause of mortality of dogs in animal shelters. Because the signs of behavior problems are not as blatant as parvovirus, behavior problem prevention in puppies is not a primary focus of many animal shelters. Shelters can and should develop socialization programs for puppies which maximize socialization AND protect them from infectious diseases. Recommendations: All puppies should be vaccinated for parvovirus upon intake to the shelter, and every two weeks until they are eighteen weeks (or until they are adopted into a home, at which point they can follow the vaccine schedule for a pet puppy). The majority of dogs will be protected by 18 weeks. Kennels and exercised area should be cleaned with a detergent and disinfectant that is effective against parvovirus, such as potassium peroxymonosulate (Trifectant® or Virkon-S®). If using bleach, remember that bleach is inactivated by organic matter and sunlight and, unless used properly, will be less effective than potassium peroxymonosulate. To ensure prevention of parvovirus, dogs under six months of age and dogs without a vaccination history could be placed in a quarantine area upon arrival, and not placed into the adoption area for two weeks. This is recommended for puppies from a very high risk background such as shelter transfers from a shelter that has frequent outbreaks of parvo. Because a two week quarantine period lengthens shelter stay (and increases length of potential exposure to parvovirus), is inconvenient, and may contribute to euthanasia due to behavior problems; an alternative protocol should be considered for most shelters. This could include making puppies available for adoption without a two week quarantine but keeping them in an area separate from adult dogs; cleaning and caring for puppies using separate staff or at least prior to caring for adult and sick dogs; using separate supplies for puppy cleaning and care; exercising puppies only in areas that can be routinely disinfected. Recommendations for puppy socialization: The shelter should have two exercise yards, one for puppies present in the shelter less than two weeks (quarantine), and another for puppies/dogs that have been at the shelter more than two weeks (post-quarantine).The quarantine exercise yard must be easily disinfectable.[*]Post-quarantine puppies should not spend time or visit areas for quarantine puppies.[*]Kennel staff should clean cages of post-quarantine puppies before quarantine puppies.[*]Post-quarantine puppies should be placed in socialization groups earlier in the day than quarantine puppies. Potentially infectious puppies should be handled last.[*]Shelter staff and volunteers who handle quarantine puppies/dogs must walk through a disinfectant foot bath and wash hands or spray hands and arms with trifectant before handling other dogs. This does not prevent transmission of parvovirus (pants and shirts still potentially carry disease), but may reduce the risk.[*]Exercise yards should be cleaned with disinfectant after every play group. Trifectant® or Virkon® are good choices, because they are non-irritating to tissues. A new group of puppies can enter the exercise area after allowing the disinfectant to sit for 10 minutes.[*]Ideally, puppies should play with the same group of dogs every day, so that if a parvovirus outbreak occurs, a smaller proportion of puppies will be at high risk. It is preferable to allow puppies to play with slightly older dogs (> 4 months old) rather than other puppies from diverse sources.[*]The shelter should have a 'parvovirus quarantine protocol' in place. If a puppy is diagnosed with parvovirus, play groups should be discontinued for a two week quarantine period.[*]Keep data regarding who gets parvovirus and their relationship to play groups (who they played with and whether they became infected).[*]Keep data regarding post-adoption follow-up and the development of behavior problems with vs. without the socialization program. References Carmichael, L, Joubert J, et al. A modified live canine parvovirus vaccine. II. Immune response. Cornell Vet 1983;73(1):13-29. Duxbury M, Jackson J, Line S, Anderson R. Evaluation of association between retention in the home and attendance at puppy socialization classes. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2003;223:61-66. Neidhart L, Boyd R. Companion animal adoption study. J of Appl An Wel Sci 2002. New J, Salman M, King M, et al. Characteristics of shelter-relinquished animals and their owners compared with animals and their owners in U.S. pet-owning households. J of Appl An Wel Sci 2000;3:180-201. Patronek G, Glickman LT, Beck A, et al. Risk factors for relinquishment of dogs to an animal shelter. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1996;209:572-581. Salman M, Hutchison J, Ruch-Gallie R, et al. Behaivoral reasions for relinquishment of dogs and cats to 12 shelters. J of Appl An Wel Sci 2000;3:93-106. Schroeder J, Bordt D, et al. Studies of canine distemper immunization of puppies in a canine distemper-contaminated environment. Vet Med Small Anim Clin 1967;62(8): 782-7. Scott J, Fuller J. Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog. Univ of Chicago Press 1965. Tuber D, Miller D, Caris K, et al. Dogs in animal shelters: problems, suggestions, and needed expertise. Psy Sci 1999;10:379-386. Socialization_and_Parvovirus_Risk_1.rtf Canine_Parvovirus_Info.rtf
  10. Maybe pointer or lab mix? She's a cutie though. Good Luck finding her a home! ETA: She's very barrel chested like my boy. There might be some boxer or another bully breed mixed in there
  11. I would probably go with the protein content then as there are probably very few additives. The diarrhea issue you're having isn't that uncommon with liver treats. Best advice is to mix up the type of treats Dexter get. Like a treat trail mix.
  12. Umm... What brand? There may be some additives that make it so. Other than that, the protein content might be too high for him to have many, thus causing intestinal .issues.
  13. It all comes down to interpretation, one of the fundamental failings with the written language because tone and emotion are not well conveyed for the most part. It's the reason people continue to debate the meanings behind some of the greatest literature in history. My direct interpretation of Milton, Frost, Shakespeare, Lawrence, etc. might vary considerably than yours. And it should! That's part of the magic. It doesn't mean that we all walk on egg shells when conversing, but it does mean that we should be open to other interpretations and understandings without ridicule or seeing something as a personal attack. It means we hold discourse until we come to some sort of accord, even if it is to agree to disagree. After all, not all disagreements can be remedied, and we should not have to give up base principles, through words or actions, to make someone feel better. In light of that, I personally feel this thread has lived out its usefulness. The arguments have been stated, beautifully debated by some, and conclusions reached. What more is there except to get off topic and sometimes silly? ETA: Just to clarify, at first, I was hurt at the implication that other breeds were somehow lesser, which is why I joined in the conversation in the matter. Now, I think there is a much better understanding from all sides, and I think we've come to some sort of agreement on it. And ps I've watched that Wolfe run like 20 times or so, even paused it to figure out if I could see where that back paw was just enough on the contact. Maybe it's the video itself, but I still think the bc flew off without touching it. Other than that, Diane I think it was? did a great analysis of that run.
  14. ^^This^^ Whether it was intended or not, some previous posts by several different people really seemed to downplay the specialness of other breeds, and, thereby, the connection between the owner and the dog.
  15. Now that would make sense to me given what I've seen. Perhaps the difference is more purpose of instinct. In my area, there are still a lot of dogs bred for their original purpose, and they definitely bring something different to the table. So much so that I can usually spot them in an instant.
  16. I really couldn't help myself Far too much fun
  17. How can we then be so sure that they're not talking about the speed with which a border collie just flies through the course? Or the apparent ease that borders have in learning with the right handler? Or maybe it's not really the breed, but the "smug arrogance" of border collie owners (my apologies, only repeating what I have heard)? I'll admit, there are some breeds that it takes me a while to train, but I've seen those same breeds learn something very quickly with a different trainer who understands that breed and knows their motivations. You can be sure that dog it giving its all, but might not be as physically capable of some of the same maneuvers. I belong to an all breed club. I'll hear things like "wow, she's fast!" and "you've really been working with him/her." Specific breeds really don't come into the mix. We're encouraging and supportive of all, and never, not once, does anyone say this breed is better than that breed. Every unique dog is special because of their backgrounds, because they are loved, and because they give everything they have and more to their owners and vis versa. Through this club, I'm learning even more how to train and react with other breeds by utilizing their natural attributes and motivations. That's partly why I say I see sparks in all of them, not just borders. For many of them at the higher levels, the difference I see has more to do with physical capabilities than anything else. ETA: Wow, this thread certainly has taken several interesting turns!
  18. I still have to wonder if it's not the fact that certain breeds appeal to people. I've two friends that talk the exact same way about their dachshunds, and others who will say the same of labs, goldens, corgis, weims, and a whole host of others. It might have more to do with a person's mentality and personal preference. Take my bf. Mav, Lily and Roxie (especially Roxie) appeal to him because of their personalities. KZ, on the other hand, he failed miserably with because there was no connection between him and border collies. He's better with chows and I've heard the same speech from him about how special chows are, that they're different and have a special spark about them that he can't explain.
  19. Perhaps then it's that most of the border collies in the training places I've been have been bred for either sport or show, which would just further prove the point not to breed for anything other than stock work. I just don't see that special something you're talking about when I've run other borders, and with KZ, it's still too early for me to make any suppositions, but maybe someone with more experience in other dog breeds can expand upon it.
  20. Hmmm... I'm not so sure of all of that. And all here that follows is based on my personal experience. The only "spark" I ever feel is when I'm working my own dogs. Maverick running a course because he loves it brings me to tears sometimes because I know if we did any serious agility training, he would be in almost constant pain. He's slower than KZ, but he puts his whole heart into it and needs great timing on directions from me to make the obstacles or else we lose even more time. I could get him to go faster, but then we would be inviting injury because of his back legs, and winning first, or even placing, doesn't mean that much to me to cause my dog pain. He runs for fun on the equipment I've made, and that's enough. Before I figured out the thing with his legs, I pushed him, and he gave me his all and more. Kellie was fast and kept me on my toes because she seemed to think three obstacles ahead, and would do them in the manner she desired unless I told her otherwise far enough in advance. I still felt a connection because she was my dog... and my heart dog at that. KZ is working her way. We'll see how she is on the course since I just started her on some of the obstacles. Meanwhile, Rogue, my niece's aussie, can match KZ for speed and agility and focus, and actually jumps higher than KZ. But, Rogue is my niece's dog, and I don't feel any spark when I run her. It's the same with my niece when she runs any dog other than Rogue. And again, the same thing with my other niece when she runs Max. Max will pour his heart into the agility run for his owner, but no one else, and when he does that, he is fast. Oh yeah, Max is an All American Heinz 57 dog and he regularly beats border collies in agility, obedience, and rally. He and my niece have more first places than I can count in the venues he's allowed to run in. Even if we put the adult divisions in on the same course, Max still wins with a perfect score and the fastest time. Like Maverick, Max is so completely devoted to his owner that he gives his all and more. We'll never see him in any world championships though because he isn't purebred. I think that special spark has more to do with the dog/handler relationship than just the dog. As a person, border collies appeal to me because I too am a thinker and I like mental puzzles; however, there are other breeds I can see similar intelligence in and I might consider owning when I'm rich, retired, and have a lot more time. There are other dogs and dog breeds that I personally think are dumb as rocks... and that sentence just might be insulting to rocks.
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