Loretta

WOW... First off, I train my dogs on stock, trialed in USBCHA trials, and we also do some contract work for local farms. I also train and trial my dogs in agility, where they do quite well. I think people on EITHER end of extremes are to be avoided. Just my opinion of course. Extremists are just that...extreme. My dogs understand corrections as a form of communication. Think of it as a game of hot and cold. A positive reward is "you're getting hot! Smoking hot!" and a correction is "you're FREEZING. Nothing more. I have to admit I was more on the positive everything side of the training debate until I witnessed the amazing communication between a very talented stockdog clinician and her dogs. They were happy! They understood what was expected of them! They LOVED their owner! And they were well behaved, well adjusted dogs. And yes, they were corrected. And that changed all things for me. I think we don't give dogs credit for their extreme intelligence, their resourcefulness and their ability to understand humans. I had a dog that was definetly a very hard dog to train on stock...but after learning how people train stockdogs, she turned into a completely different dog, on stock and in life. Not one time was she abused, hit, or in anyway harmed. But she was communicated with. In tones she understood, with pressures she understood and using her instinct to let her figure things out. I never understood how the word "lie down" could mean 10 different things...but now, I do. I tell everyone that comes to me for lessons, if you are not into any kind of correction, go watch a stockdog clinic or trial. Watch the amazing communication between the handler and dog. I never had that with my dogs until I learned how to train a dog on stock. We communicate with each other using corrections...why do we think a dog is too sensitive or stupid to do the same? Just my 2 cents...which is about all it is probably worth Loretta

I have a three year old female that is out of Ettrick Tweed x Peg. If that is the correct Peg Peg is by Ettrick Scot and Patrick Shannahan's "Hannah". Loretta

I am so sorry you are going through this with Maggie--recovery can be very up and down Good luck and I hope you can find it! I witnessed amazing results with my dog! Loretta

There is a product called Traumeel that is a natural remedy for injuries. It contains Arnica plus many other natural ingredients. I used to use Arnica, but I was given this by my canine rehab therapist and it works great. MUCH better than just Arnica--it comes in tablets, creams etc. I would see if you can find some. Really helped with my dogs rehab. Loretta

I have done accupuncture, accupressure, massage, and herbal treatments on Zip when she had her shoulder injury. She tore the muscles on her entire side and also her chest and triceps when she slipped on ice. I think without all of those things she would still be injured--she did no work for 11 months--but she has made a full recovery with no scar tissue and I will continue with the therapies. I don't know exactly WHAT happens...but it works. Loretta Loretta

I have three (7 years, 3 years and 1 year) and they all sleep They look forward to my departure because they all get ready to "assume nap position" when I get my keys and go to the door. The oldest one has taken residence on our couch and that is a no-no. But I see him eyeing it up as I am getting ready to leave--hmmmm. They seem irritated also if I come home early and wake them up Loretta Ace, Zip and Klink

I have to say I was wondering the same thing Jaime--I just hadn't found the topic yet. Loretta Mueller Pierz, Minnesota

<<>> I have had both kinds as well, spent a lot of time working one of my dogs on jumping---but when I hear people talking about breeding a dog because they are a "natural jumper", sorry but it makes my stomach turn And I hear it all the time. And I am not saying you would do this, just saying it happens

Rosanne, I was just pointing out that you did just what you were claiming not to do. You are supporting those breeders that mass produce sport border collies. As to if the parents work on the farm? Have you seen the parents work? Or did this breeder just tell you this and you believed them? Round pen work does not count as that is not "working around the farm". And with as many dogs as this breeder has and all the litters, how much time realistically do you feel that this person has to work their dogs? That is all I was meaning to say.

To those who did not understand my quote about peeing on agility equipment. Eileen described it perfectly---a Border Collie instinctively knows how to herd sheep, but they do not know how to do agility. I am not "peeing" on other activities, for goodness sake my dogs run agility! Geesh. But I understand that agility is purely training and teamwork. It is not instinct. If you can show me a 6 month old Border Collie puppy that can go "instinctively" do a set of Weave poles or an a-frame like my 6 month olds who have never seen sheep go out there and fetch them to me like a grown dog--THEN I might change my mind. I think part of the problem and why we are losing this special trait is because people do not realize how AMAZING it is. They don't take the time to find out.

In response to agility vs. herding---I had a friend once tell me: "Put my dog in a field with sheep and he will work them....put him in an agility field and he will pee on the equipment." I think that sums it all up very well

This entire thread has been a very interesting and eye opening experience and I have learned a great deal from it. Rosanne D. wrote : "If you wish to group me in with Sport Collie breeders who produce a high volume of untried puppies please continue to do so." Didn't you purchase Kiba from a well-known high volume breeder in Oklahoma who does the very same thing?

The person that made the original statement is obviously in some other world... I am pretty new to Border Collies and herding, and I am in awe EVERY SINGLE DAY when I work my dog...the fact that my pup went out at 6 months old having NEVER SEEN ANY KIND OF LIVESTOCK in her life and did a perfect mini outrun and went to balance and stopped... How can a person say that is environment?!?!?! My pup was never raised around stock?? Ugh...shaking my head... Pardon my language but people like that should not have the priviledge to own a Border Collie. Loretta

Well we just got back from the vet...x-rays look awesome..nothing wrong anywhere in any limbs...everything from that aspect looks as perfect as it can---- SO...she will be on rest, no herding etc for 4 weeks and then we will see how she is. Thanks for the feedback! Loretta

sorry...and negative for Ehrlichiosis...and to my knowledge there was not a traumatic event that started this Loretta

Thanks Rebecca This as been somewhat of an ongoing thing...it started about 4 weeks ago I thought maybe she has pulled something and the vet recommended rest...and we did and she seemed fine. Haven't really had any issues with her. Then last night she was doing this again. We went herding yesterday..just light working not anything strenuous. She has been checked for soreness swelling etc.And nothing is coming up--and once she stretches out you cannot tell anything (trust me...I have spent DAYS just staring at her....and she looks at me as if I have lost my mind..smart dog!)... She has an appointment today to go to the vet for most likely x-rays. She tested negative for lyme about a month ago...and the weather up here has been cold since then...BUT I might still run that by the vet. Just trying to figure out of there is something I am missing here... Thank you, Loretta

I have a 2 year old Border Collie female that has had some "offness" to her gait recently. Basically she is getting up from resting and she will take 3-4 strides limping on her right leg....and then stretch, and is able to walk this out and after that shows no symptoms. This only happens when she is getting up from resting. But being only 2 years old--I would think this should not be happening Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Loretta

OH NO! GASP! My dogs were both outside in a BARN/KENNEL until I got them! Does that mean they are like your dog Rachel?!?And Becca's dogs?? Whatever will I do?!? Loretta Ace, Zip and Klink

I would like to know how you can assume the dogs you run against in Novice see sheep all the time?? My dog only sees sheep once a week?? I think that is a MIGHTY huge assumption you are making--unless you took the time and polled every participant?? AND--I will say this as I have seen it over and over again--there are dogs that are best for beginner herding people and then there are dogs that are best for experienced people. I have found that the "easier dogs" get out there and trial quicker with novice handlers..and might even win. Those dogs you don't have to hold the reins on. But I like the dogs you have to hold them down a notch. They are more of a handful, but when they are ready...watch out! So remember that when you are comparing dogs (although you shouldn't be according to your post). Just because a dog starts out pushy and close on stock and in a hurry--doesn't make it a bad dog. The bottom line is this: Put the ego aside with the other BC, don't expect Repo to act like him, they are not the same dog. Don't blame it on their breeding whether he is herding/show/agilty whatever bred. When you do go to that Kathy Knox clinic..I am sure you will hear her "ego and pride" speech...take it to heart. There is no place for it in dog training. Maybe you should talk to Kathy about his behaviour..I am sure she would tell you the same stuff all of us are saying...in fact I almost guarantee it As she has taught me everything I basically know about these dogs and how to handle them properly. The BOTTOM LINE---You haven't held up your end of the deal in his training...start doing it. Teach him an off switch, don't let him self reward, and work him mentally, not just physically---if he needs more work than your "other dogs" then so be it..step up to the plate and work the dog more. Don't look at it as a pain in the rear, look at this animal as a dog that NEEDS to herd...there is a difference between wants to herd really really badly and NEEDS to herd. A HUGE difference. I don't care if the dog was a Yorkie....it is exhibiting boredom behaviour, and becoming OCD about EVERYTHING, I would never put up with that, right now my 2 are resting..one in the middle of the livingroom and my pup in her x-pen...QUIETLY.

OK--the first thing that is really bugging me is this. You say the dog has a water obsession already...which you dont like...YET you are going to take him back to that obsession over and over again...and you think that is going to HELP? I raised 2 border collies in a 850 square foot apartment. Space to me is not an issue. My dogs have off switches now, and were fine growing up. Unfortunately you have let this dog create LOTS of jobs for itself that you are going to spend a long time working through. I totally agree with the persont that stated you are creating a self-rewarding dog. You cannot compare this pup to ANY dogs you have currently or had. As each dog is different. If you think Repo is going to act like your currenty BC, sorry. Repo is bored out of his mind and is trying his hardest to find things to do. Tearing up things is much more rewarding than being good--I don't blame him I am sure if I let my 9 week old pup out in the yard I would for sure come back to bad things happening....to me that is a fact of life, so I don't allow her out like that. The first year is keeping these dogs from obsessing about things, and developing the relationship to work WITH you. Nothing in life is free and Repo is getting ALOT of freebies. As I said earlier...you have let him develope a tone of obsessions already. Not a good way to start off. I am not going to say I am the "guru" on border collies, but I have raised three herding bred dogs and they are a challenge. PERIOD.

I think the key with them (at least as far as I know) is to keep everything black and white. They are the masters of "the grey area" and are just too darn smart sometimes. The more black and white life is for them, the better. They are bred to deal with the grey side of life, and that is a wonderful trait....except when you are trying to outsmart them I remember a quote from a clinic I went to "If everyone thinks that sheep are so stupid, why does it take the worlds smartest dog to work them?".....SO true

I guess now that I am posting I might want to introduce myself eh?? My name is Loretta Mueller and I am in Minnesota. I have 2 BC's an almost 7 year old named Ace and a 2 year old named Zip. Ace is a rescue I got when I lived in Missouri and Zip is a pup I bought from Kathy Knox. Lots of good stuff on this board! Loretta

For the whining I would tell her Be Quiet ONCE that is what I meant (although now that I read it that is NOT what I said! LOL)...tell her once, then after that she is put up. Same with the cat. Since she is not totally understanding the "stop working" command "that'll do or enough etc" then I would teach her that first. With playing and then putting the toy away and saying that'll do. Then transfer it over to working the cat as well...that command just means "stop working what you are working" period. And give her that command and if she doesn't..THEN put her in the crate. But ONLY after she knows what your stop working command is. If you have to help teach her...tell her that'll do and offer her something else (aka a kong, a cookie etc)to help her understand. Take cream cheese or PB and stick the kong in the freezer...would like to see her get THAT out in 5 minutes! LOL Loretta Mueller

RcknR, Yeah I responded before I got that post! :)Sorry! Why give her warnings on the whining? Just get up and put her in the room. She is just being pushy and trying to take that inch and get a mile or 2 out of it ...I did this with Zip when she wanted to herd the cat..worked very well, if I warned her she would stop..but still eye her, once I stopped warning her and just did it....that stopped. Just a thought again. Smart dogs Outsmarting them is the hardest part! Good luck! Loretta Mueller

RcknR, She is a 7 month old BC pup )) Mine didn't settle during the evening until she was 2 Mentally and physically work her. Train train train Ignore the whining IMO, ignore the behaviours you don't want (as negative is still attention)...and praise the behaviours you do..give her one of those treat balls to work for her supper, stuff kongs with treats and have her work. Something that also worked well for my girl to learn to entertain herself in a constructive manner was to put her in an x-pen with toys and let her learn to play without me. She can entertain herself quite nicely without me now But I would not expect any of that if she had not been worked well. Loretta Mueller