krazy15k

The thing is when I originally said it I didn't even mean that one was better than the other. Just that there are good dogs in both catagories, and sometimes they can cross over and sometimes they can't. But there are a lot that can do both. But I think that different people have different ideas of everyday work as well, and that might be a factor contributing to all the confusion on this topic. But I didn't mean to spark the debate on which was better. But as far as trial dogs being good for farmers/ranchers. It depends on the dog. A strong trial dog will be plenty of dog on the farm, and there are trial dogs like the ones mentioned above that wouldn't be. It depends on the dog. I don't think we can use a blanket statement and say all trial dogs do this or all ranch dogs do that.

I am not saying that all trial dogs make bad farm dogs or vise versa. I was simply saying that a trial is not the only way to see if a dog is a good woker. And some that trial are more fine tuned which sometimes causes them not to be as independent as a regular farm dog who knows his job and gets it done. Which isn't always pretty. And some farm dogs don't have the finesse of a trial dog, which doesn't mean it is less talented or able, it just has been used for a different purpose. For example when working a herd of cattle, sometimes you have to let things slide that you wouldn't with your trial dog because you want to keep them fine tuned to listen to your every command. And you don't want them to get in to habits. I am not saying people have different dogs for each. I am not biased against trial dogs, I was just saying that there are different ways to see a dogs working ability. I think the trial dogs at open level are great, and they do have a lot of talent and are good dogs. I am sorry if I was not clear in my statement, because I was by no means bashing trials. I was just saying that a trial is not the only place to see good working dogs, and perhaps the pups that are off colored were sent to working homes and not trialed. So we don't know what is out there. My trial and farm dog are one in the same. Granted I am not a great handler, and starting a business means I don't have time to trial much, but I respect the difficulty of a trial and the training to get t that level. And the time and energy put into it by the people and the dogs.

Another prime example of stupid people. I still say there aren't things wrong with the dogs, but stupid people misusing them for profit. And being so damn greedy that they can't see what is best for their dog. Not just in bc's but in all dogs people need to quit getting dogs to breed to line their coat pockets with a little extra cash. As far as just wanting a specific color, this person obviously hasn't been educated about the breed. Let us hope if they do get a pup they take the time to learn about bc's, and eventually join our way of thinking. Also, that is a very good point about them not disappearing

I guess I just don't understand what is so wrong with Merle? As far as health problems associated with Merles, first off there are health problems with all dogs, secondly, it's not like all Merles have health problems, and as with every breeding, you make sure your dog has good hips, get there eyes checked, and realistically you already know there ears work because you have been training them. And by the time you get ready to breed you would know that your dog is sound because you have been working it for many years at that point. And, as mentioned before you breed to a solid colored dog to avoid any homozygous merles. Which are generally the ones with health problems. Now, as far as breeding all merles out because of color. Not choosing a good pup because of color is just as backwards as choosing a bad pup for a specific color. Because if you breed a really good merle to a really good black and white all those puppies have the same chance of working. The color isn't going to affect let's say their out run, each puppy is going to do what they are going to do in accordance with their training and natural ability. I don't get why you would limit your chance of getting a great dog by automatically throwing out half of the litter. As far as you having these pups and then selling them to people who are going to start mass producing puppies with them, for me that would never happen. Because I wouldn't have so many puppies that I wouldn't know the people they went to. I wouldn't give a puppy to someone who was going to start breeding mass quantities of pet merles. But that's just me. And what is the liability? At a distance a dark merle looks like a black and white. I can attest to this. I have seen my girl at a distance and she pretty much just looks like a black figure with white on the ends. And, having no value in a working home, I know most people want a good dog, and are not going to turn a pup down because of the color. Trialing homes may not be as open minded, but that is due to the belief that a judge will mark you down for having an off colored dog. I have had people say this to me. But I don't know about any one else, but I want a good/healthy dog, I don't care what she looks like. I guess I look at this from my point of view that I have a working Merle who would never be irresponsibly bred, and some people are looking at the problem from the irresponsible merle breeder perspective. I just wish there were not so many out there giving the rest of us a bad name And that people could distinguish between the two, and see that it is just a color. Oh by the way, I wasn't saying the trial field is a bad way to evaluate bc's by any means. I was just sayign there is more than one way. And, granted there aren't thousands of sheep around, but there are some people that do use them for farm work, and use them on various types of stock, such as goats and cattle. A good trial dog doesn't always make a good farm dog, and a good farm dog doesn't always make a good trial dog. But there are some that can do both. So sometimes it is difficult to evaulate who is worth breeding.

So, if someone did have a really nice merle female, and was breeding her to a really nice (and I use this to refer to working ability) male, non merle of course, then there wouldn't be a problem with the breeding? Just making sure I am clear. I would loved to have had pups out of my merle. But sometimes things just don't work out. So really the issue shouldn't be the color of a dog being bred, but irresponsible breeders in general. There are a lot of black and white dogs that had no business being bred, just as there are a lot of reds, and a lot of merles. There are too many bad breeders in general. Look at all the cookie cutter black and whites that were bred for the wrong reason, and now won't work if their life depends upon it. Also, I don't think the trial field is the only way to determine if a dog is worth breeding. What about regular stock work, where peope use their dogs to actually work. The trial field does demonstrate a dogs ability, but actually having a job and being great at it seems like a good measure as well. So really just because you don't see them on a trial field does not mean they aren't out there doing what bc's are supposed to. Working. As far as color, as I have said before a strong dog is a strong dog. She can move stock regaurdless of color. Also, I don't know if anyone is familiar with other types of stockdogs. But in Florida we have Cur's, which are all yellow, or yellow ring necks (pretty much). They are a light color, and I know for a fact that the cows don't sit there and debate whether a yellow dog is as good as a black dog. But I think debating color is irrevlevent. It is like saying blondes aren't as good at teaching as brunettes. I have come to the conclusion that I don't have to defend the color of my dog, a blue merle, once most people see her work, they don't see her color anymore anyways. Hopefully, they didn't come off the wrong way.

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Yeah, this pup has definetly been completely different than the last. My other bc turned on immediately she has been gun ho since she saw sheep, my new puppy (who came from a comepletely different home life before us) is not thinking these sheep things are that interesting. But yeah everyone says it just depends on the dog, that it can be when they are a little puppy to when they are a year old or older. It takes time.

I have a question how long did it take your dogs to turn on to sheep and start working? Was it immediate or did it take a while? Just wondering because I have heard people have puppy's both ways.

But selecting for a good worker could work just as well for keeping merles, let's say you have a litter of pups, and after training the merle pup is the best, then you breed him/her. There is another generation. It is just as easy to keep merles as it to breed them out. We are assuming that the black and white pups are going to be better, but color is just that some physical trait. I still don't see how it is going to effect working ability. From that hypothetical litter all those pups have basically the same genes, the same chance to be as good or better than any other pup in the litter. I think there has been an explosion of border collies in general. Used to I never really saw them that much, but now evey time I go down town someone has their bc out walking with them or at a bar or resturaunt. You also see them on tv tons. It seems like they have become popular with so many different types of homes that they are everywhere. I mean herding, agility, flyball, frisbee homes want them, and now there are more conformation bc's being bred and shipped in (sigh), plus all the regular people who think they would make a good pet because they saw them on tv or a friend of a friend has one. No wonder we see them everywhere.

See I don't think sheep are going to challenge a dog based on color. They are going to challenge a weak dog without presence. Black and white dogs get challenged as well. My black and white pup doesn't have near as much strength presence wise, instinct, or natural ability that my merle has. And she came from working lines as well. As far as being able to see them mine has a good bit of white, and she is a dark merle so from a distance she looks like a black and white dog with a big white mane and a big white fluff on the other end. I ride cutting horses as well ,and this would be like saying a cow is going to try harder to get past a white horse than it would a bay horse, and that just isn't the case. They out smart a horse that is out of place, slow, or not reading them correctly. Sorry, I know this analogy probably is a little out there. As far as them getting weeded out, let us hope that the people that have these merles (and all bc's for that matter), even if they got them for color or sport, will come to see the beauty in herding and take it up. That way there are even more people being educated on the fact that bc's are stock dogs. I think the more people we have who understand what bc's were bred to do the better chance we have in preserving them. Also, is there this much controversy in color in other breeds? Like do Kelpie people debate over brown or black? Or Aussie people? Just wondering

I have a blue merle as well, and like btrent, she doesn't trial as much not because of her lack of ability but mine. I am not a good handler by far, and I give credit for being able to be a good deal with the handicap of dealing with me. She makes nice outruns, drives, fetches, has a lot of style, and is one of the smartest bc's I have run across. She also is tough enough to work cattle, and works some ducks (not our for te) There are great dogs in all colors. Used to people thought reds were inferior, but now they have proven themselves. I think it is just going to take the colored bc's a while to proove themselves because they are not as prevalent as the black and whites, tri's, or even reds. I can see why people are concerned about the merles because you do have to be more responsible when you have one. As people have mentioned before you cannot breed two together. But people who would breed two merles together could probably breed bad litters with any color dog. But as far as other health problems go mine is healthy, she isn't def, sees fine, and has great hips. As far as someone's comment about them going back to rose whatever kennel, mine does not she is actually from reputable herding lines. Sorry to go on and on about merles I guess I just want people to know that not all of them are candy colored agility dogs, there are some stock dogs as well.

That is horrible. Who does that? You don't just raise all these females so you can breed them to random other dogs. And why does he have so many available, and so many available that he is trying to sell bred! Breeding is a really big decision. And I doubt any responsible breeders would want a dog from him. Sorry that shocked me, I wasn't expecting that when I clicked on the link. What a jerk.

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Thanks guys, I knew I had forgotten something obvious...vet records. Luckily she goes right before the trip, so they will be up to date. Also, has anyone ever used those little bootie shoe things because she doesn't normally walk on hot asphalt, and I am sure she will be out and about in some city with us. Also, is there anything else besides vet records you need to cross into Canada because we had thougt about maybe going to Canada as well. Has anyone tried those solar car fans you see on tv? And do they actually work? I doubt they do but just wondering.

In August a friend and I are driving from Georgia to Seattle, down to the south west and back. We are taking my bc with us. She is great in the car, and doesn't mind long trips. So I guess my question is, does anyone have any suggestions on things I might be forgetting to bring, or helpful hints for such a long trip? I think we are covered but there are always little things you remember once you are already gone! Also, if anyone has any suggestions for great dog friendly places please do tell!

I agree that I think it depends on the family, but I wouldn't say that bc's are necessarily bad with kids. I know that my bc goes to work with me where kids play with her, and she sees them when we are out and about, where she goes out of her way to get petted. The other day she was the entertainer for a cub scout troop while I tried to get our art supplies together. But I think being a working dog has helped because she knows that children aren't stock to be worked but little people that will throw the ball 400 times without getting tired. It's sad that bc's have gotten this wrap for being spazy dogs that will bite your kids, and corral them around the yard. But maybe she is an exception to the rule, but it seems with a little time, socialization, and education most bc's could be great pets. I don't think that people with kids should automatically be excluded from owning bcs, but then again I couldn't imagine ever letting a child treat a dog the way some moron parents do. So I guess I see both sides. People in rescue have seen those moron parents I speak of so naturally they are weary. Sorry to get so far off subject! It just amazes me that "pet" bred breeders (that phrase seems so wrong) would breed dogs that are bad pets, that defeats a pet, and they talk smack about working bred dogs? Okay, that was my ramble on the subject.

"So the whole color issue is more of a reverse prejudice--all the candy colors come about because people are breeding *for* them, which means they likely aren't putting working ability first. You don't see those candy colors in the old photos of, say, International Supreme winners. That's not to say that candy colored dogs can't work well, but rather that the breeding choices made to produce them aren't based on working ability first and therefore are in effect choosing *against* working ability. " What if someone just happens to have a "candy colored" dog that works really well. If they breed that dog to another good working dog, and happen to have another off colored dog wouldn't that person be breeding for working ability? Also, you can get a red out of two black and white parents, I know these aren't the colored dogs we are talking about but they are a color that some people find less desirable, and they are bred for working ability (hopefully). Sorry to get on a side note, in my honest opinion the sheep work for individual dogs, their color doesn't really matter. A good sheep dog can move sheep reguardless of color. I think sometimes we get caught up in little details instead of looking at a big picture. It doesn't matter what a bc looks like as long it is healthy and works sheep. But hey what do I know.

You should check out the Georgia Stock dog website they have trials in Florida. I think there is one Nov. 12-13th in Okeechobee, Florida. It's not this month, but its semi close. I haven't been to a trial there, so I don't know anything about it really.

I'm glad everything worked out for her, and I hope everything works out with the spaying as well.

Is it thundering or has the weather suddenly changed? Some dogs shiver because the weather change makes them nervous. As mentioned before my dog shivers when she first sees sheep, so maybe your pup is excited about something ( like a toy, or who knows what)

Kaos- I was just wondering if there is a site (like in horses) that lists stud dogs, has clips of them working etc. THat was the only info I wanted. As far as the bitch side of the breeding I Have read about that. As far as your advice, no I don't care what random strangers have to say but I thought they might know other resources I could check into. I Just wanted to know if there were some credible sites from people who know about the topic I am interested in. You want me to answer all your questions here it goes. She is not my first working dog, just the first border collie. I visit my parents pretty regularly. Next, I have been trying to get myself ready to trial and take lessons and work with a trainer who has a large flock of sheep. I am not as good as she is by any means, but I am de. trying my hardest. I have been reading a lot about herding as well so I can try and do the best job I can. I have been going to clinics and talking with lots of other people (about herding, pros/cons of breeding, anything and everything border collie), but I wanted to have some additional information so I could have a basis to ask them questions. OKay willing to sacrifice her life for puppies that are nothing like, okay one that is why we have been to the vets to make sure she is as healthy as possible, and to make sure she is able to breed, to reduce the risk as much as possible. As far as nothing like her, that isn't exactly the case. Pups do get traits from their parents. Here is an example. Our dog had a litter a few years ago, there were four pups. Mine is just like her dad personality wise, but she looks like her grandma. Her sister looks like her aunt and acts like her grandam. The other sister looks just like the mom but acts completely different. Its like in people, some kids have traits like their parents and have unique characteristics that make them wonderful as well. Okay now on to the breeding and having a horrible temp. and being sent to shelters to die. Not goign to happen. She has a good temp. and I would (if I did decide to breed) would make sure it was a dog with a good temp as well). Now back to the pups being sent to shelters, these pups are staying in the family (and maybe close friends I have met through herding but that is a big maybe). So I know for a fact they aren't going to a shelter. But if someone wanted to give a pup back would I take it, of course. Do I have the means to, yes. THat is time and money wise. The chance of losing the mom has weighed in heavily on the decision, it is not something I tale lightly by any means. As far as by the time I have perspective I will have been retired, um, that would be decades from now. Right now I work for myself so the dogs can come to work with me, everyday. So as far as walking the walk, I have been researching a lot. And I haven't side stepped anything. Annette- thanks for understanding that it is a hard decision to make. And I have already read all about puppy contracts, non-breeding homes etc. But I don't think the pups are leaving the family, but if they did I would def. make sure there was a contract (good thing there are so many lawyers in the family!) Like I said I have researched a lot of aspects on this topic. kajarrel thanks too! I am trying to be responsible because this is a big deal. Also rebecca I do know what it takes to make a good/great cattle dog. Our current dogs (although not bc's) are great dogs, (my parents used to raise cattle so they had a large herd that the dogs worked in various situations). So its not that I haven't been around dogs/livestock my whole life, I just take the decision seriously and wanted to weigh all aspects. And bc's are a unique breed and wanted to learn more about them specifically. Also, someone mentioned above do I have the resources to help take care of sick pups? Yes. I have spoken with vets about their policy about being on call during emergencies (no need to consider any farther if you don't have someone to help in an emergency). And waking up to feed babies doesn't bother me (I had a calf a couple summers ago that had to be bottle fed). Also, my parents, would be willing to help me with anything I would need. So I also have friends that could help me with pups if I needed it. RDM- I am truly sorry about all of these dogs, and before considering breeding I carefully thought about having a rescue (actually contacted a couple of dogs but they were adopted and another was in a shelter I drove to see her but she was gone). I have taken in many homeless animals (I have two stray cats right now that I love to death). I also donate to the local shelter every month to try and help these animals, I go to benefit dog washes and all the other stuff trying to help these animals. I haven't completely ruled this out, this has been weighing in on the decision as well. There are a lot of things I have been weighing back and worth. This question wasn't supposed to turn into, hey should I breed my dog discussion, but if I do, does anyone have any sites about stud dogs, matching bloodlines etc. And no I wouldn't do this alone a breeder/trainer said she would help me with this. I just wanted some prior information. But honestly we aren't even at that point. I'm just trying to be informed so if I decide to I will have collected as much information in the next year as humanly possible. Also, the dogs I have looked at I did research them, their parents, and what their pups have done, so before anyone says it I know what's behind them and in front of them is important as well. I know no one believes it but I have been reading up on this. So now, back to my question. Does anyone know any sites that I can do further research on? Any sites on matching bloodlines? On stud dogs so you can see them work online? Any great sites that will give me more insight into herding so she can finally trial with me, so I will be more knowledgeable?

Annett, complications have def. been a factor as well. I swear I have a pro/con list in my head that is a debate back in worth. This is not a decision I would take lightly by any means. Now, no I don't have as much experience with bc's, but my family has had/bred working cattle dogs since b4 I was born (as well as having the random strays/rescues). And with these dogs you have to pick the best possible match between the dogs, you have to make sure they are healthy, and raise the pups, and find homes for the pups that do not have as much working ability. That being said, I have never said I was going to breed a bc. I just wanted to be as informed as possible on the subject while making the decision. I do know her faults, and so I can keep from pairing her with the same faults. We also breed horses (on occasion) and it is a similar process trying to match the best mare with the best stud for them. Just because a horse is a champion doesn't mean he is going to work with that particular mare to make a great cross. I have spoken with several bc handlers/trainers, and other breeders to learn more about this subject. I have read countless articles online. Seriously I am doing the homework. I just wanted to know more about picking the right stud dog so I would be independently informed, and not just going by what these people say. I believe that it is a must to check out everything before reaching a decision. Now on to the homes question above. They would not go to homes where they would be waiting for someone to play with them all day. They would go to people who have an interest in herding, but not people that are going to treat the bc like just another dog or a tool. No I don't work her everyday but she does go three times a week to work sheep, and has cows to herd everyday when we go to visit the parents. I would never take this decision lightly, or would breed pups so they can end up in a rescue. That would never happen, because I Have the financial means to take a dog back if by some chance someone no longer wanted it. I am not adding to the problem with bc's. I am not a backyard breeder who pairs any dog up because they can. I am someone who has spent years with there dog, and truly believe they are a remarkable example of a bc. So I didn't come here for lectures an=bout how horrible I am, I just wanted more information on the subject because doing random searches online isn't always the easiest way to find things, asking people who can point you in the right direction is. Seriously this isn't a done deal, I have been thinking about this for a really long time. Breeding isn't something to be taken lightly, and I want to make sure I know everything I possibly can before reaching a decision

Books, She went to a specialist recently, and they rechecked her, and they said she would be fine. This has been a long process, and a lot of back and forth trying to get the best information possible. You hate to completely shut a door until you have truly made an informed decision. If she isn't going to be bred, then I want to spade her, but before rushing into that I think you should really weigh out all the options. This has been an issue I have been thinking about for quite some time, and have spent a lot of time and money reaching the decision.

She is working dog (judged by the sheep herder/trainer we go to). She has been hip, eye tested, and has no physical problems. She has a good temperment. Would be an asset to the gene pool. She has many of the characteristics of a bc that I find endearing. And even though it doesn't matter she is a beautiful dog. She is super intelligent. She is a great companion, and I have homes lined up if I do decide to breed (its not official by any means), I want plenty of time to do research. Also, I am at a point where I am ready to have another bc, and I would like to have one from my own bloodline as opposed to rescuing or purchasing this time around. Also, I have done a lot of research about the responsibilities of the breeder, and the process. I have everything covered on the dam side, I just wanted to know more about finding the right stud dog for her. Also, the pups would have plenty of room to run around, tons of love, and all the live stock they can herd ( we have cattle and plan on getting some sheep as soon as I am better at the handler part). As far as trialing, I am not that great of a handler, but I am learning and plan on starting soon. I have also began going to clinics etc. to learn more.

Lately I have been contemplating the idea of eventually breeding my bc. My family has bred dogs in the past, but they weren't bc's, and it wasn't my own dog. I have been doing research on stud dogs, but I can't really find very much information on specific dogs, how much the stud fee is, how to contact them etc., and I haven't found numerous working dogs. My dog works, she has been hip/eye tested, all of those things, I just need to know where do I find info on top working stud dogs?