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Withzia

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  1. Maralynn, thanks so much for this informative reply. I've been really curious about this, given my SAR experience and the fact that I've got one pup in very beginner herding lessons right now. I do have a hunch that there is something qualitatively different about the kinds of work that require the dog to take initiative and use their own judgment and other activities. Plenty of dogs, including my current border collies, can be content without the "thinking" work, but I felt as if it was really important for my search dog, Zia, to have an activity where she was in charge like that. She was both an extremely responsive and a shy dog, and the search work seemed to fill a psychological need for her--a part of her life where she was taking in information and making judgment calls that didn't depend solely on what humans wanted of her at that particular moment. Maybe I was reading too much into it, but she seemed healthier and happier when she was searching regularly.
  2. Trust me, no way was I asking that. I wouldn't think that either. In your post before this one you stated that you had a qualitatively better relationship--one you hadn't imagined--once you went into stockwork with a traditional stockwork training approach. My question--and I apologize for not being clear enough--was whether you attribute the difference to the activity (obedience versus stockwork) or the training method (treats as rewards versus the different techniques you use in training stockwork). Which, the different nature of the activity or the different training method, do you see as responsible for this qualitatively better partnership?
  3. They already did it--it's called a Corgi! I'm kind of with you on this. Maybe there are some significant ways in which this trend differs from the kind of cross-breeding that led to today's breeds, but in any case what's the harm in it? Sure, it would be better if the people buying "canine hybrids" instead adopted from rescue, but since these are probably people that would be buying AKC-style purebreds, how is it a bad thing if instead they buy potentially healthier mixes and the whole breed thing gets a bit more mixed up?
  4. Denise (and others who have had both kinds of experiences), do you think the difference between these two things is the training method (click/treat versus another method) or the activity? I'm asking both because I'm curious and because I think that's where this discussion has gotten a bit confused, with people talking past each other. And I'm also personally curious about whether anyone who's had experience in both stockwork and SAR sees a qualitative difference there. What is it that makes for a better, deeper, more meaningful partnership? Assuming it's the nature of the activity rather than the training method, is the crucial variable the instinctiveness of the behavior or the amount of initiative and judgment it demands of the dog?
  5. It seems as if in this discussion the term "mechanical" has ended up being applied to the behavior rather than to the training method, so I suggest taking a look at the implications of this. Mechanical behavior is--in this discussion--behavior that is not instinctive. More specifically here, it seems to be behavior for which training has to provide even the very motivation, correct? If so, I'd like to suggest that non-mechanical, or instinctive, behavior is not necessarily the hallmark of a thinking dog. When greyhounds chase the mechanical rabbit, that's surely instinctive behavior, isn't it? But is this an example of a "thinking dog"? Conversely, when after locating the subject, my search dog left him/her and went back to get me to bring me into the subject, was that a natural behavior? I'd call it mechanical, since that was something I had to work hard to explain to her was necessary. But she had to think and take initiative to do it--she had to go back and locate me, she had to pick a route that a clumsy human like me could follow (not necessarily the same one she had taken), and she had to look back at regular intervals to make sure I was within eyesight and could see which way she was going. So there's an example of a thinking dog doing a mechanical behavior. Looking at how illogical that sounds, I'd suggest just dropping the word "mechanical" and using instinctive/non-instinctive or natural/unnatural. Seems a lot clearer.
  6. I'm amazed at how individual words that Kristine is using are dissected in such a fashion. She was clearly responding to an earlier comment in this thread that behaviors trained with treats and clickers appear mechanical, as opposed to behaviors that have been instilled in different ways, such as how you work with your kids. The claim seemed to be that the demeanor of the dog in doing the behavior will be different if the behavior is trained with clicks and treats. Since the term "mechanical" sounds somewhat pejorative, I can see why she's working hard to try and explain why she doesn't believe her training methods result in a mechanical dog. And while yes there have been some posters in this thread explicitly using "mechanical" to refer to any behavior that is not natural (meaning instinctive), I have seen none of them using the term "mechanical" to describe when their own stockdog lies down or recalls on command, which this definition would logically imply. In fact I've seen "mechanical" opposed to a "thinking dog." If your dog has a reliable recall, your dog does some "mechanical" behaviors and has been trained in part "mechanically," right? Is there anyone here who doesn't have a dog that is trained at least in part "mechanically"?
  7. I don't get what any of the instances in the second quote and most of the instances in the first quote have to do with the "money for grades" thing. Surely trophies for everybody and "social promotion" and credit for just showing up are at the opposite end of the "use of rewards" spectrum from "money for grades." I didn't understand an earlier reference in this thread to "money for grades" as a manifestation of "political correctness," either. I would expect the politically correct (assuming you mean the good-hearted granola-crunching idealist types in Birkenstocks) to be the last people on earth to pay their kids money for good grades. Would it be out of place for me to warn against lumping together all the things you don't like into a single category, whether they fit together logically or not?
  8. Good Lord, I didn't say "Julie Poudrier says that only ..." and I didn't say that absolutely no one had brought up those other activities--you did in the context of handler and dog working together for a socially beneficial purpose. (You didn't bring up the initiative and judgment angle as far I can see.) I thought it might be interesting to throw this activity in the mix and think about it systematically.
  9. I've been finding this discussion interesting--particularly the question of whether stock work is somehow qualitatively different from other kinds of activities for dogs, and if so why. Let me suggest introducing one more type of dog activity into the mix--search and rescue. Let's look at how it measures, in terms of the types of variables discussed on this thread: * Extent of initiative and autonomous decision-making required of the dog: Very high. If you've ever seen a good SAR dog "working out a problem," you'll know this. I'd be glad to back up this point if you have any doubts. * Whether the rewards are extraneous or intrinsic: Mixed. My dog clearly loved searching itself more than anything on earth, and appeared to get a kick out finding people, but SAR dog-training does have the ritual of always providing the toy play-time when the dog leads the handler to the subject. * Whether or not clicker training is used: Not in my experience. * Whether or not it's what the dog was bred to do (a variable that usually appears in these discussions, whether or not it's appeared in this thread): Nope. * Whether or not the human's living depends upon the activity: Not in the volunteer work that predominates in SAR training in the US. Still, it can be life and death for other people. I'm not sure what this implies for the biggest points of contention in this thread, but I wanted to correct the implicit idea that stock work is the only work border collies can do that requires them to take initiative and use their own judgment. I know it's not what they were bred to do, but there's something beautiful about seeing any well-trained SAR dog work. The best SAR handlers know to defer to the dogs as much as possible within the limits of the instructions they received from Incident Command.
  10. So is this pretty much how Brody was when you first brought him into your home? I think that the more similarities you see between this behavior and his behavior when he first came into your home the less I'd worry. Is it possible that this is just how he reacts to a new situation? He might always have do this when his world is shaken up, and it might always take him a while to calm down and accept the new situation. How long did he act like this when you first got him and how long has it been since the puppy arrived?
  11. I realize that this is a non-political hi-jack, but I have to say that I love Zin and Zephyr's low-maintenance coats. They never get baths, we're terrible about getting around to brushing them, and yet they always look so shiny and beautiful, and garner compliments wherever they go. In contrast, our rugs and upholstered furniture are all very high-maintenance. They keep collecting all these black hairs from somewhere or other, and to keep them really clean I'd have to vacuum twice a day. I'm thinking of getting rid of them.
  12. Zephyr is almost always mistaken for female. (After two years our next door neighbor still can't get it right.) And I've lost count of how many times I've been asked if he was Zin's mom. To me he's such a goofy boy, so I just can't see what other people are seeing in him.
  13. This sounds like a description of livestock guardian dogs rather than herding dogs. (And I thought that for LGDs it's not such much independence as that they're bonded--or should be--to the livestock rather than to their people.) Disclaimer: I've never had a LGD and am just going on what I've read and heard.
  14. Twice now we've got a second dog when our first dog was one year old (all BCs), and it worked great for us. I admit that we slipped a little into the "second dog syndrome"--not working hard enough on training the second dog individually--but that has to do with our own laziness and not anything to do with the age of the dogs. I also wonder if it might be that the best time to add a puppy (as opposed to an older dog) might be when the first dog is already well-trained but still has plenty of the puppy playfulness left. (Which for a border collie might be years and years.) Our dogs have quickly bonded with each other and become great playmates. Now this is pure speculation on my part, since my only experience is as described above.
  15. My first BC loved it. More than anything else on earth. And every SAR person who saw her work raved about her abilities. But how it will work for you depends in large part on what your local SAR-dog team is like. Every team will have different requirements and even different training protocols. I'd start by locating that team--whether through the Internet or calling up the sheriff's department and finding out if they have contact information for a local team. At the same time you may want to try out your pup on some basic exercises to see if she's got the aptitude and likes it. You can pick up a book, or I or someone else here can explain about "puppy run-away" and other exercises.
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