JMack

I know this is an older thread but hoping for some feedback on longevity. My BC is 13 1/2, was diagnosed as in kidney failure a year ago, and has been on a diet to address that ever since (mostly homemade food). According to the vet, she shouldn't have lasted past August (2 months ago), yet seems to me to be going strong, maybe peeing a little more frequently, some mild arthritis and is mostly deaf.

When she was diagnosed, the vet gave her a year (which would have been August). Her labwork improved  a few months after going on the low-protein diet; again the vet said 'about a year' (which would've been this month). Indeed, from whatever moment or health condition my dog finds herself in, she apparently has a year to live.

I'm not sure what I'm asking here except perhaps for anecdotal evidence about old BCs, longevity, and kidney failure. When I got the diagnosis the first time, I put into motion some significant life-change plans, including moving in a year and a half or so (and out of the country). Now I'm wondering if I (we) should plan to stay put for a few more years. 

"It sounds now like people are arguing that the dogs are really happier when they are in pet homes. So it probably would be better for them not to work at all."

I don't hear anybody saying that, either. It sounds to me as if you want to hear that people are arguing for this, because it's an easier argument to have. In fact, I think people seem to be saying to you that this is way too complicated a question to reduce to any easy yes/no argument.

Strange, too, that your starting point seems to be that dogs on farms never have problems. Really?

I adopted a border collie because I had met a few when I lived in England & liked them (these were house dogs). When I returned to the states & was ready to adopt a dog, I heard that border collies ended up in rescues, shelters, etc., in very high numbers. So 'rescuing' one seemed an appropriate (& responsible) thing to do.

You are strangely nostalgic, Tommy Coyote, for a past that likely didn't really exist the way you've imagined it. As others have mentioned, environments & the animals who are part of those environments (human and non-human) change according to the circumstances. My dog's problems seem to come largely not from her breed, but from her past. Because some idiot on a farm-- who also thought a border collie would be a good 'watch dog' -- bought her from a breeder & then chained her up when she began to herd the goats.

My guess is that Katz's advance on his latest book was (at least) in the mid tens of 1000s, so why he couldn't spend some of that figuring out what might have been a curable medical issue baffles me.

I remember one time at a dog park I had to break up a major problem waiting to happen. We are always in movement at the dog park, occasionally throw a ball, and rarely stay for very long. I just love to watch Jedi at a full run, all stretched out in a lightning fast blur, so we sometimes go. Anyway, out of the corner of my eye, I notice several dogs circling a dog and a lot of barking going on. I'm looking around for owners and there are none anywhere near. Jedi and Cadi are starting to notice the commotion and are about to run over, so I leash them and hand them over to my son for a moment so I can investigate. I walk over there and one of the owners must have followed me because she said, "They're just playing". So I said, "Does that dog look like it's having fun to you?"They were circling and nipping one dog who was by this time very upset. So I started waving my arms, yelling, walked through the middle of it and broke it up.

 

It just made me realize that even the owners who take the time to supervise their dogs at the dog park, don't really know what they're looking at in dog/dog interactions. So I think it's very important to study up on dog body language before you ever go. Just my 2 cents.

Yes, I've seen this, too. Recently with a pup (perhaps 4 months) who was besieged by other dogs, not unfriendly, just very aggressive play. The pup had its tail tucked and was yelping! One of the owners of the other dogs went to leash them, apologized and THE OWNER SAID: Oh, that's okay. He does that to the cats, so it's good for him.

And another instance in which a young dog/ pup was being run over by a group of larger, play-aggressive dogs and kept coming to the owner and trying to hide between his legs and the owner said: It's good for him. He needs to be socialized.

There's a guy who brings his two young german shepherds to the park here & "controls" them by letting them trail their leashes. Once I picked up a stick to throw to Durga (we were perhaps 20 yards away) and one of them jumped up on me after the stick, almost knocking me down. I very nicely called out: Could you call off your dog? He laughed and said: You can't wave a stick around in front of dogs! and then went back to what he usually does in the park, leering at the young women there.

What a prince. Fortunately, he's never there if the weather isn't perfect.

AND he wears a really stupid hat.

In some breeds Elbow dysplasia for example does not exist or is extremely rare no matter what you do to the dog as a pup.

Sorry -- still trying to understand this. Would that not mean that if you stopped "breeding" border collies strictly along "breed-specific" lines, and allowed a little genetic material from a "breed" that does not develop elbow dysplasia in, that you would reduce the likelihood /prevalence of elbow dysplasia in the dog population?

I regularly take Durga to a park at the end of our street, which is an unofficial dog park. It's a good group of (mostly) friendly dogs and (mostly) responsible owners. There are owner/dog combos, whose appearence at the park, signals for me to leash Durga and leave. The park, though, was essential in socializing her and helping her overcome her fear, especially of men. We've made a lot of friends via the park (human and dog).

So, as others have said, I think it depends on the park. I do think there are many naive dog owners out there who assume that any dog wants to go play with any and all other dogs. I don't think it's laziness necessarily, just not understanding dog culture very well.

I just saw this and have to share it. The author has a great dane and was able to quickly id bloat in her dog and managed to save her.

 

click click

http://www.erinvey.com/bark/2009/05/07/bloat/

I just read this & now wonder about 2 episodes my 5 yr old had a couple of months ago. She was restless, hunched up, circling, and just ODD. The first time it happened I had been out of town. Her sitter had brought her home around 6-6:30, fed her, then left. I came home about 8:30. The oddness went on for perhaps 30 minutes.

The 2nd time we were at the park. I can't remember about her food--but I don't feed her before we go out & try to wait until she's cooled down when we get back. She pooped, seemed fine for a minute or 2, then it happened again, though it wasn't as severe as the first time. Again, she was hunched up, circling, seemed to be in pain, then lay down & wouldn't get back up. A friend went & fetched my car (we just live a few blocks from the park) & by the time she returned, Durga was fine.

I thought it was something orthopedic, but the vet could find nothing. It hasn't happened again.

I soak Durga's kibble for 5 minutes before I give it to her. (She got rather gassy after going on prozac & this seems to help.) She does wolf it down.

Yes. That would work. But then we would have no border collies. And life without border collies would be no life at all.

Durga agrees. I read her your comment and she stretched, yawned, and looked rather smug. Then I pointed out how nice it might be not to be in charge of everything all the time. Rather exhausting, isn't it? I asked her. She has retreated (sulkily) into the next room.

What if people stopped breeding dogs? I'm no expert about genetics, but surely that would drastically reduce hip dysplasia in the dog population.

I agree that jblaylock is giving some terrible advice but it seems to me very unlikely, from Pansmom's various posts, that she would take such advice (& jblaylock seems very, very young-- maybe too young to realize how very complex these situations can be)

Pansmom,

If a behavioral vet seems financially out of the question right now, have you considered talking with your regular vet about going straight to medication? Clomicalm or fluoxetine seems worth a try; both are inexpensive. You (& the dog) don't seem to have much to lose at this point. While it might be ideal to get an exact diagnosis first, medication is always a bit of a crap shoot & you only know for sure if it will work is by use.

Just a thought. Sorry you're dealing with this & impressed with your patience & commitment.

Flouxetine has been wonderful for my shy/reactive dog. She's been on it for a few months now. She still flings herself at the front door if anyone approaches the porch but no longer does it when, say, a leaf fall from a nearby tree. I don't think I realized just how much of a change it had wrought until I realized that she doesn't react much to mild thunder, only to full-out storms. It used to be that at the slightest rumble she'd be under the bed.

You may see some stomach upset. I've ended up breaking the pill in half & giving it with food twice a day. That seemed to help (& I think Durga just got used to it).

Thanks for all the encouragement. I'm so happy there are others on this board that have had these issues as I've mentioned before it doesn't seem that common on my other boards.

 

Nancy,you explained exactly why I hesitated. Well, that and the fact her regular vet kept telling me if she wasn't destroying anything, then it was fine.

 

Melanie, thank you for your posts in the other thread. I got her appointment right afterwards. I hope this works as well for her as it did with Solo. We've gone our first day with no side effects so I'm relaxing a bit.

Oh, she's fine with her crate.... until you walk out of the room. She'll sleep in there at night, she'll go in there of her own accord and bring a chew or something.

My not-quite-5 year old seems to have developed certain signs of aging almost over night. She is still extremely active, usually the fastest dog at the park. But is rapidly getting a lot of white on her snout & face & her eyes appear to be a little cloudier.

This seems to have happened within a span of a couple of months. I've looked back at photos & am pretty sure I'm not imagining this. I'll ask the vet about it when we're in for her next annual but wondered if anyone here has any thoughts on this. The only changes in her life are (1) diet food and (2) prozac.

Didn't Sam's dad already say he was going to quit with the bike? Sorry for being harsh, but you might want to read the entire thread.

I am disgusted every time I see a person riding a bike and their adult dog running along beside let alone a puppy. Lets use some common sense here. Dogs are not joggers and I am sick and tired of people telling me that this is exercise and the way to better health. I am tired of people assuming that this sort of thing because they think is good for humans must be good for the dog. To the original OP, you are well on your way to causing serious damage to this puppy if you keep it up. Are you thinking. Puppy's require exercise but observe a group of puppy's and you will quickly discover they do not go jogging. Why, because repetitive exercise is of no value to them and will cause serious joint problems. You will quickly discover that they run and jump and wrestle and in this they are learning something and getting both the outlet for their energy and exercise to grow healthy and strong. You may well be on your way to creating an obsessed dog. Get off your bike, be creative and give your puppy what he needs to grow and be strong. You are serving no purpose other than to satisfy yourself and riding your bike with the puppy crashing and banging his joints into the ground is just plain lazy. Do some study and understand. Sure border collie puppies require a lot of exercise but in a natural way. I allow my puppies to play until they exhaust themselves but I allow them to be puppies not robots and my puppies turn into big, strong, healthy and happy working dogs. And when they are working dogs they can work stock from sunup to sundown at times and be completely spent but they have the spirit and drive and the power to do it.

I am Canadian, I have played hockey since the age of six, I was drafted to junior at the age of fifteen and I was drafted to pro hockey at the age of twenty. I was finished at the age of twenty-three with bad knees and all sorts of join problems. Today I can hardly get up from a chair and walk across a room without pain. All this from body punishing exercise. Do your puppy a favor and let him be a puppy not an exercise machine. Do yourself a favor and get off the bike and learn something about dogs, learn something about puppies and socialize with your dog.

Sorry for being so harsh but you are way off base on this one.

I'll try and remember to take a photo and post it. This has been a good solution for us and our 4 dogs.

When you get a chance, please do post a photo.

I am working through my yard bit by bit & have not yet used up the bag (in fact, I'm only about 1/3 of the way through). The website says a bag covers 1000 sq, so it would take quite a bit for you. You might think about converting it 1000 ft at a time (esp. since you'll need to keep foot traffic off it while you're seeding it anyway). I'm figuring 3 years to convert my entire backyard.

ADPATO,

Please, if you decide to give up the dog, consider contacting a Border Collie Rescue rather than returning it to the breeder. I am uneasy about the advice the breeder has given you. Perhaps s/he is more responsible than s/he sounds, but ---

Ecolawn is great! It's a little work to get in going but wonderful once you do (NO MOWING!)

It has a 9-inch root structure so once you get in going, most weeds can't grow up through it. And it only grows to a height of 4-5 inches then flops over. It grows slowly so if you want to mow, you only do so infrequently. But I never mow mine at all & it looks great.

I hope to transform my entire yard in time, but am doing it 1/3 at a time. The first third is in and thriving.

Good for dogs, for more free time, and for the planet.

This slight veering should probably be in Coffee Break, but thought I'd follow-up here.

There is a relatively new product on the market called Eco-Lawn. Link below:

http://www.wildflowerfarm.com/index.php?p=...CFQKJxgodZCp_6A

Its a fescue mix, meaning its very fine and equally tolerant of full sun, part shade and even quite significant shade. Its low maintenance, meaning requires very little (if any supplementary) water, fertilizer and mowing. It grows very densely, so weeds are often not a problem, and it stands up pretty well to a lot of action.

 

However, in terms of major foot traffic (dogs and humans!) with agility and running around, you might need to topdress and overseed regularly to repair the damage. Doing this in the spring when its still cool and moist is the best time. But it means you'll have to keep everyone off the lawn until its germinated. And also remember to keep off the lawn in the very early spring while its still saturated to prevent more serious permanent damage.

 

I wouldn't resort to bentgrass (what's used on golf courses) because although it is ground-hugging and apparently very tolerant of constant foot traffic, it is extremely high maintenance (i.e. watering, fertilizing, mowing, etc.). I believe bahia grass is a warm season grass and doesn't grow where winters are below zero. Not sure how cold you get in Missouri!

Ailsa

I'm sorry. I thought you said you were travelling this summer but it looks like you meant next summer. So you have plenty of time yet.

Yes, that's right -- and why I'm starting early. I lived in the UK a few years ago & the paperwork for me (my visa)invoked a tangled web of misinformation. YOu say 'broker,' but I don't know what that means-- could you name some specific companies? We would likely be going in July or August.

(I have read--even studied--the Defra site, which is why I'm starting so early on this). I was just quoted a 1000 POUNDS cost, which seems high.

I put my 4 1/2 yr old on prozac about 6 weeks ago. While she has come a long way with training (and being spoiled rotten), I came to believe that the quality of her life would be better if she experienced less anxiety on a day to day basis. It was the right decision. It certainly hasn't been a cure-all, but there's less "edge"--she less reactive in general AND therefore easier to focus on me when I want her to come or wait or sit or whatever.

There have been few side effects apart from some stomach upset the first couple of weeks (gas and a little loose stool). I used a little pepcid, but what really helped was breaking the pill in half and giving 1/2 in the morning about 10 min after her food and the same in the evening.

Good luck with your dog--

I would greatly appreciate hearing from anyone who has done this. I will be moving to England for a year in about a year and taking my 5-yr old bc with me. She is shy, so I'd like to make this as easy for her as possible.

I think I understand the forms, paperwork etc that will need to be completed for customs--that information is pretty clear on the website. But information about the actual transport is a little harder to come by.

Airline recommendations? We will be moving in the summer, so (as I think I understand it) she cannot go as checked baggage but must go on a special plane.

I'm having a lot of trouble getting clear information from any of the airlines (Delta in particular was a nightmare).

Obviously, starting to figure this out early is a good idea.

Sea4 & Sue, I think you missed my point, which is--

regardless of how these terms may have been appropriated or claimed by certain groups & associated with them, the word "rights" does have a particular meaning. While 'animal rights' is a phrase that connotes certain things to people, "rights" has a clear, denotative value. I think I can separate out from all that rhetoric my belief that all sentient beings, regardless of whatever phrases get hurled about, do have 'rights.' To me, it is a given.

The problem for me with the word 'welfare' (though, to be sure, you may be using it differently & will perhaps explain) is that animals--and all beings who are powerless or less powerful--are dependent upon / completely controlled by humans. Some humans rise to the challenge; unfortunately, many do not.

Speaking of language--

So often on this board I see people use the phrase 'animal rights' or AR without qualification. It's a term that's come to be associated with what many of you perceive as extremism, in particular with PETA.

But do we really want to live in a world where animals have NO rights? I don't.

No wonder the AKC loves this woman. I agree that language is very important, that it shapes the way we think. But we aren't 'owners' of animals in the same way that we are owners of a couch or a pair of shoes. Well, maybe some people are. But they shouldn't be.

Has anyone had their bc on prozac? My 4 1/2 year old has been on it about a month (for reasons I won't go into). Overall, she is doing very well, but has had some digestive problems--loose stool & flatulence. The vet suggested pepcid 1/2 hr before the prozac, which I've given her the last 2 days, but she now has diarhhea. Could it be the pepcid? Because of the cold, I've been home from work & monitored D. more than usual, so it's less likely that she just got into something.