Columbia MO

I'm writing in hopes of clearing up a common misconception. That is, that all (or even most) dogs who bite people are somehow not responsible. Many people blame "bad former owners," the fact that the dog was teased by kids once, lack of socialization by the former owner, etc. This is a huge fallacy. Just like with people, there are plenty of psychopaths, sociopaths, etc. among all animal species. There are plenty of dogs that are just dangerous from puppyhood and no amount of training and counter-conditioning can make them totally safe. I personally have owned dogs that have had terrible experiences with people. I once left my ACD, Dagger, tied outside my university library for 15 min. When I came back out, I found a large group of Chinese kids throwing rocks at him. He continued to love kids for the rest of his life, and in fact happily went up to meet the rock throwing kids so they could learn that dogs were friendly. My JRT won an award for visiting 8 nursing homes a month while we lived in England. We went to a brain injury hospital weekly, and my dog was routinely picked up by his tail or his lips, had his skin pinched by people who were physically incabable of unclenching their nails, got hit contantly by people swinging/jerking their limbs uncontrollably. And he loved going there and never developed even the slightest fear of people. I adopted two rescued BCs this year (one now rehomed with a stay-at-home clicker trainer and dog sports competitor). One was 9 months old, from a rural trailer trash kind of place--turned in to the HS due to "moving." She had never seen a collar, leash, strange dog, car, stairs, TV, toys, etc. But she quickly learned the ropes and was bombproof with everyone and everything--no fears, phobias, aggression, etc. I had to grab her a couple of times by her tail the first week and she thought that was a super fun game! She'd happily jump up on the grooming table and offer her nails for clipping, and tried to have me clip them again as soon as I was done, she liked it so much! My other rescue was taken from a puppy mill seizure at 15 weeks old--before that he had likely never met a soul other than the breeder. He loves all people: men, women, kids, people of different ethnicities, men with beards, people in wheelchairs, etc. He was leery of other dogs the first couple of times he saw them, but now loves all of them too. He has no noise phobias either. My show dog, purchased from a respected breeder is the only aggressive dog I own. As outlined in my earlier post, this dog was hand fed by 4000 people and still has numerous fears and phobias and does aggressive displays towards certain strangers in certain situations. He was BORN bad... it was certainly not due to a lack of positive training (he's 100% clicker trained) or lack of socialization (10 hrs/day for 6 months, then almost daily meetings with strangers for the next 3 years). And it is DEFINITELY not due to any mistreatment or bad experiences while with me or the breeder. It is just GENES. A dog with a good temperament will keep that good temperament DESPITE any amount of abuse, neglect or lack of socialization. A dog with a bad temperament will still keep that underlying tendency for aggression despite massive socialization and total LACK of any bad experiences with people. Please do not blame yourselves, your dogs' socialization (or lack thereof) or your dogs' former owners for the aggression that you are observing! Columbia, MO

Spottydog, Regarding the foster dog that bit your friend in the face.... Last I knew, Patricia McConnell, Ph.D. dog behaviorist and author, has ALWAYS recommended euthanasia for a dog that has bitten a person on the face. She believes that dogs that bite legs, hands and arms can be worked with successfully (or at least managed), but dogs that actually lunge up and bite people in the faces are a whole different ballgame and very dangerous. I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who owns a fear aggressive dog that has lightly nipped one person and has never bruised/drawn blood. My oldest BC was genetically fearful from birth. I quit my day job when I first got him and spent 6 months, all day, every day, desensitizing him to people. He was handfed by 4000 people during that time and has met more on a daily basis since then. But he will still erupt in an aggressive display with no warning--all but one time he has been on the far side of a fence during these displays. Luckily, I know his triggers and can manage the situation. He is 100% safe at shows and with kids and visitors. His triggers are ethnic men appearing "out of nowhere" while we're on a walk and running up to him (he ignores them if they don't run), or people approaching my very isolated, 5' fenced backyard when I'm not home. As much as I totally adore this dog, I have to say that I NEVER want to go through life with another fearful dog. Fear aggression is FAR worse than aggression due to dominance. Dominant dogs are usually easy to change through NILIF and generally the owners can avoid situations that set the dog off by removing rawhides, feeding in a crate, moving the dog off furniture using a long line, and using positive training methods. Fear aggressive dogs can have so many triggers and be uncomfortable in so many situations that they can "go off" with no warning. The only justification for keeping such a dog (IMHO) is the knowledge that the dog has great bite inhibition or a very high threshold for biting. Good luck with your decision, whatever you choose. Columbia, MO

I finally got around to looking up this guy today online. I see what you mean. It's an obvious puppy mill with 18 "breeding" males and 17 "breeding" females, and about 40 puppies listed for sale from a dozen or so litters. The puppies are close in age, so he's apparently breeding over a litter a week. Some of the testimonials state that people got their puppies at the far-too-young age of 6 weeks old, all delivered by a driver that drives around to different states dropping them all off. I can't believe anybody would fall for this guy. He definitely still lists the ABCA registered dogs prominently on his website. I'm trying to figure out how he is a "member of the ASPCA and HSUS." Has anybody told them about this guy? He also claims to be running a shelter, though some of the dogs there are obviously puppies his puppy mill friends couldn't sell and have passed along to him to do it. I feel sorry for one dog I see on there who has its CGC and lots of training. How did they end up handing over this "indoor only" dog to a guy that apparently has around 100 BCs on his property. (And those are just the ones pictured on the website). If anybody has more of a history on this guy--particularly those who have been involved with trying to shut him down or whatever--please send me a PM. I'm just curious, especially after reading every page of his website. Yuck! Columbia, MO

Hi there, Thanks for providing additional info on what you're looking for! You mentioned having a 6 yr. old daughter. If she is a nice dog-loving kid that is very quiet and never runs in the house OR yard, a BC might fit right in. However, you might want to think about her friends that will eventually come to the house. This can be a rambunctious age, with kids racing around the house chasing each other, running to the kitchen for a glass of water, etc. Most (but not all) BCs would be VERY overstimulated by this kind of activity. My normally laid back, high-in-trial-winning obedience BC loves kids but I have to manage him every second in this environment, giving about 1 treat per second for not chasing. Being a Border Collie, he wants to get ahead of the kids, cut them off at the pass. He will try to turn them around by using eye contact, but when that doesn't work, his next move would be to snap, and eventually bite. Not all BCs do this, but enough do that this might be a red flag. The other thing you mentioned is that your wife wants a lap dog and that you are typically at the computer but want an excuse for more exercise. If you get a typical BC, you might be in for a LOT more exercise than you had in mind. Most BCs do not just lay quietly around the house waiting for that 30 min. frisbee session. My current BC puppy brings toys to me NON-STOP every second I'm home, shoves them against my legs, bounces them once per second on the floor to get my attention, flings them at me, etc. If I won't play, he will grab the noisiest thing he can find--like a metal food dish--and chase it around the house for hours, slamming it against walls and making a horrible din. NOBODY could work through this racket! This kind of high energy dog will drive your peace-loving wife CRAZY!!! Not to mention... if you normally spend a lot of time in front of the computer but want to lose 25 pounds.... what happens after the weight comes off? That Border Collie is gonna build up a huge exercise tolerance, and you will still be expected to go for 10 mile daily hikes for the next ten or so YEARS! The BC exercise schedule doesn't fit into most peoples' lifestyle very well. I did not get a BC until I bought a house on 10 acres. Besides racing around the 3 fenced acres fetching balls/frisbees several times a day, my two Border Collies get a daily MINIMUM of at least one formal 1-hour training session (tracking, herding, agility, obedience), plus at-home practice in their other sports, plus a trip to downtown/pet stores/the trail for "cultural enrichment" plus a long leash walk. Most days, the older BC also herds my ducks for 30 min. When we come inside, the 3 yr. old dog sleeps. The 5 mos. old begins his obsessive-compulsive toy fetching/dropping/chasing. There are definitely BCs that do not require this much exercise, but if you are set on having a great frisbee dog, the drive required to play frisbee may have a whole related suite of behavioral traits that would not suit your wife one bit! Columbia, MO

Rebecca, Sorry I missed the "mix" in your retriever mix recommendation. I agree that in some mixes, the Lab personality would be toned down enough to make a decent pet. There are also full Labs that make decent pets. I was simply saying that everybody seems to jump in all the time recommending Labs without realizing that dog trainers/behaviorists find them to be one of the least suitable breeds for families. To me, recommending a Lab as a "laid back, easy going, family pet" is the same as recommending an Akita as the perfect pet for a family that runs a home daycare. Yes, there are Akitas that do not attack strange children on sight, but the breed certainly wouldn't be at the top of anyone's list for this scenario. In the same way, the "stereotypical" Lab that is laid back, perfectly mannered, sleeps all day in front of the fireplace, and simply requires a weekly walk around the block for exercise is a myth that--unfortunately--most of the American public still buys into. Regarding the dogs whose photos you sent... how are you judging personality, temperament or trainability based on a photo? The descriptions themselves can give a lot of info if you read between the lines. I randomly opened the very last photo on the list. The dog's description is: "Ritter is such a handsome dog. And he has the most expressive face. He will listen to you and tilt his head to the side as if he is trying to figure you out. Ritter was found as a stray on 9/12. He appears to be an Aussie Shepherd mix. He has gorgeous merle coloring. He looks to be about 2 to 3 years old. He seems very intelligent and extremely handsome." Where do you see in this description anything about "loves people," "friendly and affectionate," "loves to work for people," or anything else that would make a good family pet. According to Sue Sternberg (and I agree), if they can't find a single nice thing to say about the temperament of a dog, watch out! Saying a dog "seems intelligent" and "is handsome" is common "rescue-speak" for a dog that is most likely cold, independent, dislikes people and may have other temperament issues, including aggression. The best dog to look for will have a description like: "Sally is a sweet, good natured hound mix who loves adults and children and adores meeting new people." THAT is the dog that will be the trainable, loving family pet that won't attack you when you go to clip her nails. Not the "handsome" dog with the personality where they can't think of anything nice to say. Columbia, MO

Somebody mentioned Labs & Goldens as good family dogs. As a former dog behaviorist who has had over 1000 dogs in my classes, I would definitely give a thumbs up for the Golden. Some lines have developed fear aggression recently, but a Golden is still a relatively safe bet for a family pet. I definitely do NOT recommend a Lab for most people. Goldens and Labs are absolutely and totally different personalities. The only thing they have in common other than being popular yellow bird dogs is the fact that both breeds tend to have horrible manners with other dogs and can basically only play with other Labs or Goldens. (That's another story). In an informal poll of dog behaviorists, they overwhelmingly voted Labs among the worst family dogs and one of the worst breeds for a first-time dog owner. MOST Labs (not all, but most) are extremely dominant, pushy, attention-seeking and demanding. Labs rank #1 of all breeds in pulling on leash and jumping on people. They are very high energy, and are one of the most destructive breeds when left alone at home. I have also had numerous Labs over the past few years that arrived in class extremely dog aggressive. (Lunging/snarling). The dominance problems with owners are also getting worse. I worked with a Lab who had disembowled his owner when she tried to block him from going out the door ahead of her. I will let my dogs play with all kinds of dogs, including the bull breeds. The only breed I absolutely won't allow to get near any of my dogs is a Lab. Labs can pretty much turn any dog they meet fear aggressive through their rough body-slamming play style and inability to give off or read calming signals from other dogs. There are plenty of exceptions out there, but they are generally NOT a good family breed. They are good dogs for people with lots of training experience and leadership ability, who are home all the time, and want a very active bird dog and don't mind spending a few hours a day working on the jumping, and don't mind walking the dog in a Gentle Leader for life! Just my $0.02 cents. If the OP wants a nice dog for playing frisbee with, I'll add my vote for an adult rescue BC or BC mix. I have a show-bred BC that is extremely well mannered in the house and absolutely undemanding. If you want to play ball, frisbee, or do any sports, he instantly turns on and will play for hours. But when I had knee surgery and was housebound for a few weeks, he just slept all day, every day without so much as even a walk. I can't say the same for my new herding-bred puppy. He brings tennis balls about 500 times a day and needs about 5 miles of running a day just to take the edge off! There are similar examples of hyper show-bred BCs and laid back herding bred ones. The best thing to do is check out adults in rescue and find one that fits your requirements. Good luck! Columbia, MO

Hi Sue, Southwest Auctions is a notorious puppy mill auction place in SW Missouri, right on the border of OK/MO/AR for easy access to all the rural puppy mills. They specialize in selling "used up" breeding dogs from one puppy mill to another. They may also wholesale to the pet store trade, but I don't know this for sure. Their website is: http://www.onlinepetauction.com. You can read a good article about rescuers going to Southwest to buy Whippets here: http://www.anniesangels.org/1st-hand-account.html Note that the facility where they were keeping the BCs was much nicer than the one described in the article. It was a converted turkey barn down the road from Southwest's main facility. I was prepared for a "house of horrors," but in fact the dogs were in clean, gravel-floored runs that looked like a normal boarding kennel. By the way, for several miles leading up to Southwest, many of the "farm" properties appear to be puppy mills, though of course you can't see any dogs from the road. But they're the stereotyped weed-strewn properties containing multiple run-down trailers, weed-overgrown cages, or tumble-down barns that are often used to house "breeding dogs." This seems consistent with the animosity of the locals that is mentioned in the Whippet article. Columbia, MO

Shandalei, The conditions you describe don't sound nearly as bad as the conditions you yourself kept these dogs and puppies in! (Complete with at least one dead dog on the premises). At least they had food and water, whereas I'm pretty sure they didn't even have this when they lived with you. As I mentioned in another thread, the puppies/dogs that you bred and owned for 14+ weeks, and that Southwest had for about 6 days were diagnosed as having: coccidia, whipworms, hookworms, roundworms, pressure sores, foot scars (often caused by standing on wire cage floors), umbilical hernias, ringworm fungal infections, anemia, malnutrition, ticks, and massive flea infestations. When they first arrived, some of the puppies could only pee/poop while lying down--they weren't able to balance while standing up. These were not tiny puppies, but were already four months old! Several different vets guessed the age of the puppies at 9 weeks old, when they were actually 15-18 weeks old--that's how malnourished and small they were. Many of the puppies/dogs are very outgoing and confident, but others have a high degree of genetic shyness and will require massive amounts of socialization to accept strangers. I guarantee none of this "bad stuff" was caused by the 6 days they spent at Southwest. While at Southwest, the dogs/puppies were in a converted turkey barn in chain-link runs, each with its own Dogloo and a deep gravel floor. The runs all looked like they were cleaned daily and the place was 20 degrees cooler than the outside temps. There was clean water and food available in the runs. I don't want to excuse Southwest for their horrible "profession" (which I think should be illegal), but I have to admit that their boarding arrangements were certainly adequate. So if you're concerned about the conditions of these dogs, Shere, you only have yourself to blame for overbreeding and for not giving the dogs any medical care or socialization. I know your behavior may seem normal down there in Southwest Missouri, but in the rest of the world, breeding a litter of puppies each week and selling them over the Internet equals "puppy mill." Columbia, MO

Hi everybody, I am the person that will be going to the auction place to buy at least one of these dogs tomorrow. I have some friends locally who have been wanting to adopt Border Collies, so hope to be able to buy some for them as well. (They can't get off work on such short notice to come along). I have only lived in Missouri for 3 years (previously London, then Wisconsin). Something most non-Missourians don't seem to realize is that Missouri makes $2 billion each year from puppy mill sales. Nearly everybody here considers puppy farming a perfectly respectable business, just like any other family farm. The Dept. of Ag. not only doesn't shut down puppy mills, they actively support them and give advice on how to increase sales. They also give them millions in grants each year. The biggest puppy mill broker in MO, the Hunte Corporation, has received at least $1.75 million dollars in Dept. of Ag. grants over the past four years. Until today, my co-workers--all scientists with graduate degrees--did not even have the concept that a puppy mill was "bad." To most of us, it's a dirty word, but to Missourians, it's no worse than saying somebody is a soybean farmer. The MO Dept. of Ag. is actually here to SUPPORT the puppy mill breeders, not to police them--so I think any letters you send will fall on deaf ears. There are over 2,400 USDA licensed puppy mills in the state, and only 7 part-time Dept. of Ag. agents to inspect them. If I recall correctly, only two puppy mills were prosecuted last year, and most do not even receive fines, no matter how egregious the violations. (And MO has pretty lax standards, as you might imagine). Anyway, you can write letters if you want, but I think the best help right now is if a bunch of you fellow Missourians on the list will join me tomorrow in adopting one of these dogs for yourself. If any of you do go, remember that they will only adopt to people who will be keeping the dogs as personal pets. NOT to people who are fostering or who are affiliated with any rescue, or who are pro-rescue. If you want to see why the Dept. of Ag. and puppy millers have a chip on their shoulder about rescue, I highly recommend reading the following account of a visit to a Missouri puppy mill auction. The story has no graphic photos and a happy ending: http://www.anniesangels.org/1st-hand-account.html Please read it!

Hi all, I'm not affiliated with any BC rescue, but am one of the people that had stepped forward to foster a Border Collie from the group of 40 or so that were surrendered by Awesome Border Collies last week. It turns out the the Missouri Dept. of Agriculture, in an effort to support puppy "agriculture," will not be offering any of these dogs to a rescue. Instead, the dogs/puppies are being offered unspayed and unneutered on a first come, first serve basis for $30 each. Commercial breeders are welcome to adopt, but anybody affiliated with a rescue is not. They started selling the dogs today, and were careful to NOT alert any of the rescue people that have been following this case. I have been told that most of the adopters have been local farmers (whether sheep farmers or puppy mill farmers is still an open question). The dogs are being held at a Springfield MO area puppy mill auction place (http://www.onlinepetauction.com). They have already sold 11 of the dogs today, and there are two more buyers coming later today. I'm located 3 hours away and can't get there before they close, but am taking the day off work tomorrow and going to adopt at least one of these dogs myself. I'm hoping that every Missouri BC lover on this list who possibly can will join me in adopting one of these dogs. The holding facility is located off Hwy 76 and the physical address is Route 1, Box 9D, Rocky Comfort, MO 64861. They are open normal business hours. Note that MO Dept. of Ag. will ONLY sell dogs to people that are NOT affiliated with rescues and will NOT consider selling a dog to somebody that is acting as a foster home for a rescue. You must be willing to KEEP the puppy or dog that you adopt. If you have any questions, you can call John Cupps, MO Dept. of Ag. at (417) 489-1214, or the puppy mill auction place at (417) 652-7540. Be courteous--both of these people were very nice when I talked to them on the phone. You can also reach me personally at k9shrink@prodigy.net. Columbia, MO

Hi all, I was just alerted to this thread today by an aquaintance. I thought I'd share what I know about Shere and Awesome. I was contacted about a month ago by a man in St. Louis that was looking for a puppy and asked me to check out the Awesome website and give my opinion. He had spoken to the breeder and thought there were some red flags. I had never heard of this person or kennel, but I read the entire site and was appalled. Shere Thomas was obviously a puppy miller, as evidenced by having approximately a litter every two weeks, taking Visa/Mastercard and shipping to people site unseen, charging for puppies according to their color, referring to her supposed pets as "Sires" and "Dams," claiming to do OFA/CERF but without providing any actual certificates, etc. I also cross referenced her phone number with an ad that appears in every issue of a local classified ad publication. The site was also riddled with made up "facts," many of which have been reiterated here--such as the 7 million dollar "winnings" alleged for one dog's ancestor. She was obviously unfamiliar with competitive dog sports, saying that many of her dogs were "frisbee champions" or had titles in BOTH "agility" and "obstacles." Anyway, since she was referring to ABCA on every page and also inventing trials that her dogs had supposedly won, I contacted both USBCHA and ABCA to see if they wanted to take any action. Within the week, most of the made-up information vanished from the website. And now I've been alerted to this thread, which apparently vindicates my conviction that this is a puppy mill. Anyway, I already wrote to Iron Horse, but want to reiterate to the group that I'm willing to foster at least one dog, and hope that a bunch of us will come forward to prevent the regional rescues from becoming overwhelmed. I hope that Iron Horses' absence on this list is because he is right now calling up every rescue and Humane Society in the area where this woman lives. I live 3 hours north of Springfield, but would be happy to spend this weekend down there cleaning up and transporting dogs, etc., if she will volunteer to relinquish them to rescue groups. Shere, if you're reading this, please let those dogs go so we can all pitch in to find them a situation where they will get the care and individual attention they need. Columbia, MO