Columbia MO

As the token owner of an AKC conformation champion (who is also a Pro-Novice USBCHA dog), I don't think this excuse holds up at all. Here's why... In my state of Missouri, there are--MAXIMUM--maybe 5-6 Border Collies that have ever been shown in conformation, including my dog and his littermate--both now retired and neutered. I am not aware of a single BC conformation breeder in the state. According to the BCSA Breeders' Directory, the only AKC BC breeder in MO lists her only activity as herding. And it isn't only Missouri. Nationwide, there are only about 200 members in the BCSA, and I would guess about half of them either don't breed or don't do conformation or both. They are FAR outnumbered by working lines breeders. Here in Missouri, I would guess there are probably 5,000+ working Border Collies, of which about 50-100 trial on a regular basis. We're one of the top cattle states in the country, and so they are very much in evidence in working environments, at fairs or anywhere that cattle are in evidence. When I take my dogs on the street--one b/w rough-coated AKC conformation Ch. and one very lightly coated ABCA-lines dog, split face tri with ticking-- everybody knows right away what they are and knows they are the same breed. They recognize them if I only have one of the dogs with me too. I would say I have virtually 100% recognition--higher than when I had a Golden Retriever. The reason? It is hard to find anybody in small-town MO that does not either have a BC, have a relative with one, or grew up on a farm with one. They have no problem realizing that they come in different colors and coats. Maybe the problem with recognizing the breed is more of an urban problem. I think the general public tends to be uneducated about breeds in general. I have had several people identify my Jack Russell Terrier as a "Jack Dempsey" terrier! He has also frequently been called a fox terrier, a rat terrier, and often a "terrier mix." Note that he was the 1997 #1 conformation Jack Russell in the USA. Being a conformation champion and terrier group winner did not mean people automatically recognized the breed! My Australian Cattle Dog was either a wolf, dingo, dalmatian, pit bull, hyena-mix... or when he was a puppy with big ears... a BUNNY! I'm enjoying this thread. But anyway, if you guys want the general public to recognize your BCs, you should move to a state with a lot of cattle! Columbia, MO

I just checked out their site. (Great dogs--wish they would adopt out of their state!) Anyway, they have about 50 dogs available and I only see where it says that about 2 of the dogs. I personally think it has more to do with sun bleaching or maybe even genetics. My half-raw, half-Innova fed black/white dog has red highlights and was from a predominantly chocolate-red litter. Maybe it is what happens when a black dog is recessive for red? Columbia, MO

Hi everybody, Thanks so much for your replies. I really appreciate the helpful stories of dogs that have already had the surgery. I thought that FHO seemed like the dog would still be severly impaired, but apparently that's not the case. Nice to have this info before going to the ortho vet to make our decision on type of surgery. We have apts. at both the Univ. of MO Vet Teaching Hospital and a specialist in St. Louis at "Associated Veterinary Specialties." Thanks again!

Hi everybody, I just posted an update about my rescue dog, Repo, under General Discusion "How are all the Awesome rescues doing." Repo is 15 months old, and just got diagnosed this week with severe unilateral hip dysplasia, and I thought I would post about that here. Anybody whose dog has had any type of hip surgery...please post with your experiences! Here's the story: Repo was rescued from a BC puppy mill last summer at three months of age. He has turned out to be the most athletic dog I've ever known, with fabulous, ground-covering gaits and super fast turns. At 11 months of age, I sent him to a trainer for five weeks to learn to work sheep. Unknown to me at the time, the trainer also trained him on cattle, as a surprise. I'm sure this involved a lot of getting kicked in those early stages. Repo developed a mild limp a few days after returning home, and I took him to the vet. The vet refused to do x-rays, insisting it was just muscle strain. The limp went away within a day, and he competed at a trial later that week. Repo is now 15 months old, and has continued to train and/or compete on both sheep and cattle a few times a month. He also plays a LOT of long-distance ball fetching in my 3-acre front yard. Though he didn't continue to limp, there was something a bit "off" ever since that limp Earlier this week, I pinned down what had changed about Repo's gait--he was keeping on his left lead, even when circling to the right. In addition, he had recently begun holding up his right rear leg for one or two steps in the middle of a trot. This past Monday, I convinced my vet to do full OFA-style hip and knee x-rays. It turns out that Repo has one Good/Excellent hip, and one (the right hip) has Severe dysplasia. This type of unilateral dysplasia is very likely due to having a kick and dislocation that wasn't caught at the time and eventually popped (mostly) back into place. Because Repo is so high-drive and intense, there was no obvious change to his gait or activity level during the dislocation phase. Repo now has an apt. with an orthopedic surgeon, and I will pay whatever it takes to get him back to 100% function. I've looked online, and there only seem to be three options: THR - total hip replacement - can only be done on dogs about 50 pounds and up. Repo is too small, at only 35 pounds. TPO - triple pelvic osteotomy - can only be done on dogs under 12 months of age. Repo is already 15 months. FHO - femoral head ostectomy (cutting off the "ball" part of the joint) - This seems to be the only option left. It sounds okay for an elderly arthritic housepet, but not for a young dog with a competition career ahead of him. I'm hoping there are more choices available than this. Has anybody had experience with a dog Repo's size having hip surgery? What did you chose, and are you happy with the outcome? Also, does anybody have experience with "acquired" unilateral hip dysplasia? How did your dog get injured? I'm trying to figure out if it was from the cattle work or something as simple as too much rowdy ball playing. Thanks!

Hi Ironhorse, I'm one of the people with an Awesome dog. I went to Southwest and picked up five puppies and an adult one year ago today. I kept one puppy (Repo) and placed the adult (Lucy) and two puppies (Freeman, Balou) locally. The final two puppies (Remy, Reid) were placed through Mo-Kan BC Rescue. Freeman is living with a positive obed/agility trainer and her family and in training as an agility competition dog. He was born with a fear of strangers, but the owner is working hard and gradually overcoming this. Balou is living with a business owner and her family on their natural beef farm. He is in training to work on their farm and possibly compete in herding and agility. The owner has recently bought some sheep to practice with. Lucy is living with a couple that I work with, enjoying her retirement (she's 10) in a small town. She has been introduced to both sheep and agility, but a bit too old to really get involved in either. However, she is still a fetch-aholic and loves meeting people that will throw balls for her. Repo is the one I kept, and has a beautiful temperament, very sweet and cuddly with everybody he meets. He is ball crazy and also has the type of OCD known as "water freaking"--so is obsessed with paddling and slapping at water. He has been in training for herding, agility, and obedience. He earned all three AHBA Novice titles on sheep at 12 months of age with very high scores, and also has a CGC certificate. Repo went to his first USBCHA cattle trial in Iowa at 14 months of age, and placed 5th out of 14 in Novice. (My AKC conformation champion placed 2nd). At his first USBCHA sheep trial a few weeks later, Repo placed 2nd in Novice. (AKC conformation champion held sheep to the setout guy--can't win'em all!) Repo is going in for $2000-$3000 hip surgery in the coming week. I'm posting about that on a different thread about "unilateral hip dysplasia." He's worth every penny I spend on it. Thanks, Ironhorse, for precipitating the rescue of these great dogs! Sharon

The people I know that have a dog door going into their main house all have built small "huts" around the dog door on the outside. That is, they build a sort of small doghouse sort of thing, constructed on the side of their home. This house then has another dog door that is installed in a wall perpendicular to the first door. This keeps the wind from blowing in. So the dog goes into the "dog house" through one door, makes a turn and goes through the dogdoor leading into the house. This setup seems to work pretty well. I'm looking for ideas on good dog doors, myself. I currently have a dog door only going from the "daytime puppy room" (a converted 2-car garage) outside to a large kennel run. My two adult dogs do not have a dog door while I'm at work. I'd like to install one from the living room to the backyard. However, I'm worried about my JRT going outside and digging holes in the muddy backyard, then running into the house and tracking huge amounts of mud all over my off-white carpeting. When I'm home, the dogs don't come into the house from the backyard until I wipe off all twelve feet. I've thought of putting in mandatory "foot baths" at the entrance of my future dog door, covering the entire living room with sheets to protect the carpet, etc. It all seems very unwieldy and unreliable. Also, I'm not sure if I want to build the "hut attachment" on the outside of my house. If anybody has solved this problem, please let me know! Columbia, MO

Lisa, Thanks for your advice and your success story with Ben--I have actually started working on the mat idea and it is working very well. I picked out an ACD puppy for a coworker from the shelter this spring--she is identical in age to Repo. My co-worker has been teaching her puppy to stay on a towel and chew toys until given permission to leave. Her puppy is definitely the best mannered ACD I have ever met, and in fact one of the best mannered of any breed. So I know your mat advice is good! About the crating in the car, I have done that in the past with my JRT when he was a puppy and had separation anxiety. I'd alternated days in doggy daycare with days in the car while at work--and of course many breaks for walks and playtime. But now that I have this huge puppy playroom with dogdoor to an outdoor kennel surrounded by forest... I hate to have to crate Repo for 10 hours, and prefer to just make his rooms more puppy proof. Anyway, I made Repo out to be much worse than he is out of a sense of comic hyperbole--in other words, I had started this thread to be a comic story of a zany day in the life of one 6 mos. BC puppy! Other than bringing me the balls, Repo is actually wonderful in the house. He will settle down and chew hooves for long periods of time, and never chews inappropriate items. He is not pushy with me or the other dogs, and plays appropriately with them for short periods of time... then goes and entertains himself or trains with me. He has been housetrained for several months, too. It was mainly him being silly in his outdoor room that I wrote about in my original post. I thought it would be fun to share the story of him knocking out a lightbulb, carrying it outside and burying it--that has never happened in my 40 years of dog guardianship. However, a friend of mine (and board lurker) pointed out that in my original post I seemed possibly upset, and insinuating that Repo was abnormal in his activity level. In fact, I think he is quite normal in his activity--I just lucked out with my first two BCs. I think he is a super funny puppy. In the last few days, I have fixed Repo's destructive tendencies in his playroom, and he is having a wonderful safe time out there now (safe for the textiles, that is!) For the rug/mat chewing, I had tried Bitter Apple, which didn't work for him. Then I had tried some "Fooey" (more bitter stuff) and that was the day he destroyed his dog bed. It turns out that Fooey does work--and VERY well!--I just hadn't sprayed it all over the bed but only on the front edge. I have now been using it more liberally for the past 4-5 days, and no destruction at all. I even put in a new dog bed (tied down with wire, and sprayed with Fooey) and he has not snacked on it or on the carpet strip. He is now happily playing with his stuffed Kongs and his bungee tug toy that hangs from the ceiling... and I removed all nearby flourescent lights, just in case lightning strikes twice! For the repeated ball-retrieving, I decided to extinguish this kind of retrieving totally. I had been trying to teach him to bring the ball to my hand, and because of this, I was rewarding some of his retrieves (the ones where I could touch the ball before he dropped it) and ignoring all the others. However, this served to put him on a variable reinforcement schedule, which meant he just brought the ball more and more, thinking that he had to simply bring it 20 or 50 times before I would throw it. Starting on Friday, I started ignoring EVERY retrieve. I simply don't look at him or the ball, or try to get my hand under it, or encourage him to bring it "the whole way," or anything else. All it took was two evenings, and he gave up bringing me the ball and simply started chewing hooves by himself. So the ball bringing had been inadvertently "trained in" by me, and was pretty easily extinguished. At the same time, I'm devoting about 15 min. each evening to "formal retrieve" lessons where he is rewarded for various components of a GOOD retrieve, such as holding the ball, moving on leash with the ball in his mouth, etc. When he masters retrieving "to hand," I may allow some informal retrieves during the day, though I will be careful to initiate them myself instead of letting Repo decide that it is time for me to throw for him! Thanks for your great advice, and it was nice to hear of the success you had with Ben. Columbia, MO P.S. Yes, I was just kidding about Repo having to win Open trials in a few years. I would also forgive him for the lightbulb incident if he wins some Ranch classes...

Rachel wrote: > take your dog away from his comfortable time in the house where you might already have trained an "off-switch" and train him during a difficult time to have an "off-switch". Does that make sense? Yes! And thanks for letting me know that your dog finally responded to some food. What did you use that finally turned him into a little "shark"? About training in the off-switch, you are right. I'm going to take your advice, using the method in Sue Garrett's new book. She basically uses NILIF even during training sessions. If Repo loves tunnels, I won't let him do a tunnel without first doing something like eye contact, 30 sec. stay, roll over, tug with me before entering the tunnel, etc. This is also what I'll do at the pond. I have also started doing something else from her book which is to avoid creeping start lines. You have the puppy sit, do a lead out, then instead of saying "go!" you ask for other position changes, such as down, stand, back up, etc. Then you go back and reward with food or a tuggy. Is this the kind of off switch training you're talking about? I also think I should start either crating Repo or tying him to a doorknob for 15 min. or so right after a training session, just so he learns to settle down when asked. Right now, he is at liberty all evening to bring me those 500 balls that I don't throw... and he's very distracting even when I try not to acknowledge him in any way! Columbia, MO

Jodi wrote: > It's fabulous that Repo's parents both come from working lines .... Just because a male dog and a female dog may have come out of nice lines does not automatically mean that breeding that male to that female will get a good result. I do agree that just because two dogs are good workers they will not produce a good worker. I have met numerous ABCA registered dogs that will not even look at sheep. However, I guess there is a difference in opinions of the definition of "well bred." You and Julie are seeing this phrase as referring to the qualities of the BREEDER and her intentions. Or in other words "bred by a knowledgeable breeder based on information on the working abilities, structure and temperaments of both parents." Which I agree is the goal that should be behind every breeding. (And I would strongly agree also that people from any registry should not be breeding BCs unless they have evidence of working ability, not merely "instinct"). I'm using "well bred" in the more common usage, in which I'm referring to the PRODUCT of the breeding--that is, the puppy--having good qualities. All I'm trying to say is that both Repo and my adult BC happen to have turned out to have great herding and sports abilities (or potential, in the case of Repo). That their abilities are somewhat unexpected is beside the point. I consider them "well bred" for herding because their various pairs of genes combined to make them both into dogs that have excelled or are likely to excel in both herding and a bunch of other sports. (Repo had his first herding lesson in an arena at the Ozark Empire Fair this month, and I had serious offers of trial people wanting to buy him due to his style and eye). The fact that one was bred to be a conformation/sport dog and one was bred based on color (Repo's breeder priced puppies higher if they had unusual colors or ticking) doesn't negate the fact that they both turned out to be nice, "well bred" dogs. It just depends on whether you're definining well-bred by the breeder and her intentions, or by the final result--the dog--and his abilities. So I can see your point, but wanted to explain what my definition was. Columbia, MO

Rachel, That is true--I had an ACD that was born with no off switch, too, but got one "trained in" later. At 7 weeks old, I had to walk the ACD 4 miles each morning (offleash on dirt hiking trails) just to take the edge off--he was sooooo athletic. Even Repo probably couldn't have kept up with that baby ACD! In fact, most 7 week old puppies I've known couldn't make it around a block very well without getting tired. I think the thing about Repo is that I was taken a bit off-guard by his energy level. When I started fostering him, he had come straight from puppy-mill life, where he likley had no exercise. He was loaded with internal & external parasites, coccidia and was very malnourished and anemic. Right after his arrival, he slept most of the time or played a bit with my other dogs. He couldn't focus on clicker training sessions for more than about 2 minutes at first, which was very low for a 15 week old puppy, but understandable given his condition. After a week or two, he could focus a bit longer for training, and learned to do a couple of easy things like sit/down. And he was able to take a walk of about 1/3 mile (equivalent to going around one city block)... though he would zonk out sound asleep right after we got home. In fact, he even toppled over sound asleep sometimes after bringing me a ball a few times at the computer (which I ignored). He almost seemed to be narcoleptic a couple of times! So I had thought of him as a pretty low energy puppy. But after all the parasites got cured and he got on some good chow, the REAL Repo came out. However, that didn't happen until just 8 weeks ago or so, at 5 months old. Because of his low energy before, I never bothered to work on a "settle" or on extended stays or anything you'd do with a typical high-energy puppy. So now I'm gonna get started. We're having our first private lesson with my friend Betty tomorrow morning. She is a local OTCH trainer and BC owner. However, other than bringing balls and dropping them all around me so many times every evening, Repo is great in the house. He is housetrained, totally non-destructive (the destruction is in the puppy room while I'm at work), makes eye contact and sits for everything (all the dogs are on NILIF), will not run through an open gate but waits for permission, and I can recall him away from people, other dogs, ducks, sheep, cars.... but apparently not the pond! So the hooligan example I gave in my original post is not to say that he's a bad boy or trouble-maker normally. Just that he gets bored and needs more exercise... and that no matter how puppy-proofed you make a puppy room, there is always some puppy that can figure out how to knock 4' fluorescent bulbs down from the ceiling so he can take them out in the yard and bury them! Columbia, MO

Julie wrote: >we should remember that the pup in question came from a puppy mill and in no way represents a well-bred working dog any more than Columbia's other dog does You are totally wrong on both counts. First of all, Repo definitely came from a puppy mill, but he is quite a well bred herding dog. Both his parents were bought from decent working stockdog breeders under false pretenses. With the help of ABCA, I tracked down these breeders, and they were shocked to find out that the person they sold them to had been a puppy miller--one actually burst into tears when he heard the news. Repo's dam's breeder is a veterinarian here in town with two working dogs. The female (Repo's grandmother) was imported from Ireland. The male is the son of a multi- Open trial winner. Repo's sire was bred by another Open level competitor in SW Missouri, and that dog's sire is a son of a dog named Job, another multi Open trial winner who was the foundation dog of my herding instructor. Repo is apparently a dead ringer for Job, both in looks and temperament. I have no beef at all with his genetics, his working aptitude, etc. He is already VERY stylish and if I can get enough access to sheep, may even make a great Nursery dog. He does have a very glaring conformation fault in that he is very cowhocked and narrow in the rear, to the point that his hocks slam against each other when he moves. He is still very fast, and I do think that some degree of cowhocks adds to a faster turn, so I'm withholding judgement whether or not the cowhocks are a disability until he is old enough to do real work. The "puppy mill" portion of Repo's background was the neglect: he was kept at a run-down place with 40 dogs running around, some caged, many loose, some dead and left in the yard, and a bunch of puppies covered with parasites and very anemic. Now that Repo is healthy, I certainly can't blame any part of his behavior on being from a puppy mill (in fact, he has a very friendly and outgoing temperament and is bombproof around noises or the "unexpected"). Repo is just a very exhuberant puppy with no off switch, and I have known many BCs just like him from both conformation lines and herding lines. Lets all learn to treat dogs as individuals: Not "all conformation-lines dogs are lazy, slow, and crappy at herding" and "all herding dogs are fabulous workers, active and high maintenance." I know so many exceptions to both statements that I can tell you that there is no truth at all to either statement. About my conformation dog, there are in fact various conformation titles available, including championships offered by nearly every developed country, international championships (from FCI), German style evaluations of conformation, not to mention AKC and UKC, which both have different requirements. In addition, after a dog earns its AKC championship, many go on to be "specials," meaning they are shown against other champions to rack up points towards "Top 10 BC of 2005," or "Top Herding Group Dog" based on points earned in group wins, etc. These are not titles, as such, but are much craved by a small fraction of show people. Because I only show for fun, a spirit of competitiveness, and to make sure any prospective breeding dog has good structure, I got his AKC championship and stopped there. In addition, you are also asking a lot for my dog--conformation bred or otherwise--to be doing Open level work when he is 3 yrs. old and has actually been in a pen with sheep or cattle about 80 times in his entire life, including trials. Since last November, he has had exactly six practice sessions (most 10 min. each), and still managed to compete at three USBCHA Novice trials, where he came in at the middle of the pack against a dozen or so dogs that all get to work daily. The reason he is not winning Novice and going on to compete in Ranch is that he developed a new habit this spring of crossing over on his outrun to hold the sheep to the setout person. And no, that's not because he's a "show dog" but because he enjoys working for knowledgeable men more than for me... and he figures the setout guy at the other end looks a lot more sheep-savvy than I do! We are going to two clinics in the next month (Danny Shilling and Kathy Knox) in order to address this issue before we move up to Ranch. By the way, you folks that are constantly dissing AKC herding trials have obviously never been to one, and it shows. I will definitely agree that the AKC A course is easy, but the AKC B course is identical in every way to USBCHA. AKC Started = USBCHA Novice, Intermediate = Pro-Novice/Ranch, Advanced = Open. Many AKC and USBCHA trials are held at the exact same venues, with the same sheep, same obstacles, same distances, same obstacle settings and same JUDGES. In fact, most or all of our AKC and AHBA judges so far have also been USBCHA judges. By the way, the highest scoring American at the Internation Sheepdog Championships in Ireland this year was Robin Penland, who competed with two dogs that she bred and trained. Robin's dogs are all AKC registered. She is both an AKC and USBCHA judge, and has two dogs in the USBCHA top rankings. At the AKC Border Collie National Specialty this year, Robin was the show secretary in charge of.... conformation. If the American that scored highest at the Internationals respects AKC conformation shows, I would hope that any lesser people in the herding world would also get off their high horses about the alledged "division" between show and herding dogs and treat each dog as an individual rather than a "first class" (i.e. herding bred) or "second class" citizen. Columbia, MO

I should have mentioned that future trips to the pond will be on a Flexi until he will reliably come out of the water. This was his first time swimming, and I had no idea he would respond this way (he had only waded a bit his first visit and was quite uninterested in water). I'm going to use the method that Sue Garrett used with her water-obsessed dog, Buzz. I will be taking him to the pond on a Flexi, practicing some obedience beside the water. When he complies, he can go in for a bit (on the Flexi). If he comes out when called, I'll let him resume swimming. If he refuses, I'll reel him in like a fish and we'll immediately head for home. Don't worry--I'm not going to let him swim and ignore my "here" commands any more after that first time! Columbia, MO

Hi all, Back to the topic, thanks for the suggestions of how to occupy Repo during the day. I had considered a doggy daycare (I used to teach obedience at a facility that had one), but the one here is only 1-2 days a week and very expensive. It tends to have very bullying, overexhuberant dogs like Goldens and Great Danes. However, I did find a great thing to wear Repo out. I have a pond in the far corner of my property, up a very steep hill. I almost never leave my tame lawn to go into the rough part of the property. There are HUGE amounts of ticks most of the year, and when the ticks stop, the burrs begin. I will agree with any of you that say "conformation dogs" are impaired with regards to burr resistance! If my adult BC runs about 30 yards into the field, it means an hour of grooming when we get home--he gets burrs stuck to every square inch of his coat, his eyelashes, etc. Anyway, I bit the bullet and took the dogs up to the pond. It then suddently occured to me on our trip there, that in the 3 months I've had Repo, it was only his third or fourth off-leash walk. No wonder he is getting cabin fever! Here's why... I have an invisible fence for my 3 acre front yard, at the end of a dead-end country road. Until last year I worked from home, and my other dogs (pre-Repo) would run around out there all day while I gardened and did chores. When I got Repo, there were several things conspiring against him going into this large yard to run around: 1) A family moved into my upstairs as tenants. Their door leads to this front yard. They use it to walk their 3 very large dogs (who my dogs have never met). I live in the walkout basement with my three, and they go out into a smaller, chainlink fenced backyard. So the huge front yard has been "off limits" since just after I got Repo. 2) Repo was too young to train to an invisible fence prior to having the tenants arrive. Dogs have to be at least 6 months old. And besides that, he is a car-chaser in the making, and it is unsafe for this kind of dog to use an invisible fence. Anyway, all this talk of Repo not having enough exercise (which is true) made me realize what a different lifestyle he has had from all my other dogs. He gets his 2-3 mile daily walks on a Flexi, running all over along the sides of our country road, but it's not the same as being off leash, digging for moles in the orchard, chasing each other around for hours, etc. So I took them up to the pond yesterday, burrs or not! Repo had no interest in swimming on his earlier visit, but this time he plunged right in. He swam from one end to the other in a very obsessive way for over an hour. He would not come out when called, or for treats, toys or tuggies. He resolutely just plunged ahead with the most gawdawful swimming "style" (basically flailing wildly), swimming back and forth with a glazed look in his eyes. He did not even notice me calling him or waving toys--he was mesmerized by his own flailing or the water droplets, or whatever. (Sue Garrett's dog Buzz is the same way when swimming in her new book "Shaping Success"). I had to actually leave and go back to the house and hope Repo would eventually tire and come out. About 10 min. after I got home, he showed up at the door very wet. Anyway, I'll bet he sleeps GREAT today. Although I did have to brush my other BC for an hour when we got back, I'll have to incorporate a daily swim as long as the weather stays warm enough. With an hour of swimming a day (especially HIS version!), I don't think Repo will need crating, daycares or trips to work with me! Columbia, MO P.S. A few of you have mentioned that I am spoiling him or wearing him out by "playing fetch" 500 times every evening. I didn't say we were playing fetch! I said he "brings me the ball" 500 times each evening. I don't throw anything for him unless I take him into a separate room and initiate a game with a "special" fetch toy. But when I am otherwise engaged, he still brings me balls and other toys over and over, dropping them at my feet, in my lap, shoving them against my leg, setting them politely on a nearby table, etc. even though I TOTALLY ignore him, do not look at him, speak to him or touch the ball. So there is no spoiling or forced exercise involved here. It's all Repo being obsessive!

Various posters wrote: > Your other dog is a conformation dog, which is why Repo seems like such a challenge, I guess. > I noticed the conformation dog in the photo as well. There was one that looked very much like him in our agility class. It was the most un-border-collie-like border collie I had ever seen. He looked like he was moving in slow motion. > A working BC is very diffrent from a conformation bred dog(can't really call them BC's). ********************* Hey, my "conformation dog" resents these comments! He has ONE conformation title (champion) and SIXTEEN titles in performance events, including herding. He's now doing AKC Advanced herding, USBCHA Novice (could do Ranch, but we're working out some kinks first), agility, obedience and tracking. He is a High In Trial obedience & agility dog and a Reserve High In Trial herding dog (from the HRDII class in AHBA). He is definitely NOT slow... he runs 5.6 yps in agility, and every time he has Q'd in Excellent (70% Q rate), he has been first place, beating usually around 15-30 herding-bred BCs. He is the #2 BC in the U.S. right now for Excellent A agility and working on his MX. He runs only 0.2 yps slower than Remy, the AKC National Champion. This "conformation dog" could certainly not be called "low drive," or "slow"! Call me naive, but could it perhaps be the fact that he has good structure that makes him able to be such a fast and agile agility dog?! The difference between him and Repo is not beauty or breeding, but that he has an off switch hard-wired into his brain and Repo doesn't! And another similar point is that the rescue I had for 6 months (rehomed last month) was obviously from herding lines rather than conformation lines. She was surrendered in a rural cattle farming community, and is a smooth coated, prick-eared, black tri... and I trained her a bit in herding, so she definitely had the instinct. This dog had waaaaay less drive than my conformation dog and was calm and well mannered in the house. She did enjoy rough and tumble play with the other dogs, but was happy to lie down and chew toys if I was otherwise occupied. All BCs are individuals. Being from conformation lines doesn't mean they'll be lower drive, and being from herding lines doesn't mean they'll be high drive with no off switch. Columbia, MO

Hi guys, Thanks for the suggestions! I do realize Repo is bored and needs more exercise. I have a bike with a springer attachment, so I may have to start running him 3-4 miles before work. That's what I did with my ACD for years when I lived in an apartment. Doing a training session BEFORE work is also a good idea. Crating is out--I'm in the middle of nowhere, no nearby neighbors, no local friends outside work (I'm a relatively recent arrival) and across town for almost 10 hrs. a day (incl. travel time). However, on decent days I can try closing him into the outdoor kennel that has the concrete floor and nothing at all to chew up. That will keep him from rehearsing the bad behavior. About "why did I even get a Border Collie?" I got my first one 3.5 years ago when I had a home business. He is a very high drive dog when training, but super mellow otherwise, even as a puppy. He got to hang out with me all day, getting to go out for potty breaks virtually every hour. But when I returned to a 9-5 job last year, he adapted instantly to being left inside 10 hrs. a day... did not chew, bark, have housebreaking accidents, etc. He appreciates a nice stuffed Kong, but he has no interest in hoofs, rawhides or toys, and apparently sleeps quietly all day. This spring, I got a 9 mos. BC from the local Humane Society. She did super in the setup I described that I have for Repo. Did not chew or bark, and entertained heself all day with the Kongs and hoofs. So that was two BCs that were perfectly fine being left alone during the day. (The very sweet rescued BC was later rehomed with a fellow clicker trainer that needed a friendly dog to help her man her agility equipment booth at trials). The last time I had a puppy and was working away from home was my JRT 10 years ago. He was crated (I came home at lunch). By the age of 7 months--just two weeks older than Repo is--this otherwise very active JRT was able to have run of the apartment for 9 hours a day, with no barking, chewing or housebreaking accidents. So having had two BCs and a JRT prior to this puppy, I thought I knew what I was in for. But Repo is like the BCs I had read all those horror stories about! I had a friend who had to quit her job to raise her BC puppy years ago... which is what had scared me away from the breed back then... but I figured she was exaggerating until I saw what Repo is like. Anyway, I'm totally not upset, mad, frustrated or anything with him. He has me grinning ear to ear all the time. He's just such a crazed lunatic puppy, I thought you all might enjoy his story... if only to make your own crazed lunatic BCs look almost "calm" by comparison! By the way, has anybody tried a doggy treadmill? I had some clients with a human treadmill and their dog insisted they turn it on for him to use all the time. I just wondered if maybe I hitched him to that while I'm in the shower or having breakfast that it might take the edge off. Columbia, MO

Hi all, Thought you might like an update on the puppy I adopted after 26 Awesome BCs puppy mill dogs were confiscated by the MO Dept. of Agriculture in July. Repo is now 6 1/2 mos. old and is a total hooligan! I've been training and competing in many sports (earning several High In Trials) for the past 28 years, and I have never in my life seen such an outrageously hyperactive and destructive puppy. He'd better make one heck of a stock dog to pay me back for all the stuff he's destroyed so far! Since I work across town, I'm gone 10 hours a day. Fortunately, I have the perfect setup for this at my home, which is in 10 acres of forest. I have a 2-car garage downstairs that I outfitted as a training room. It is a cinderblock room painted pastel yellow, with lots of cheerful lighting. There is rubber matting covering the floor, with a hallway-sized carpet runner along the garage door side. There's a fan in the summer and a "dog safe" space heater for the winter. (It also stays warm from being part of the house). There is a dogdoor leading out into a 20x20 kennel. The floor of the kennel is half concrete and half deep bark mulch. The kennel is surrounded by a nicely landscaped and fenced backyard, which is in turn surrounded by several acres of forest. Each morning before I leave for work, we take a 1 mile walk down our country road on a Flexi--so the puppy is actually running at least 1.5 miles going back and forth. We play fetch while I'm showering, dressing, eating, etc. (In the evenings, we trail hike another 1-2 miles, practice obedience & agility, do lots more fetching and games. So it is not like he doesn't have exercise). Then Repo goes in his room, outfitted with: - A large Kong stuffed with canned food and frozen overnight. - A 2-L soda bottle or a Buster Cube (I have three kinds!) filled with his breakfast kibbles. - At least two newish toys that I provide on a rotating basis to keep him from getting bored. - Rawhides and hooves. - A homemade, very cool bungee toy hanging from the ceiling with several dangling "handles" made from udder tugs, retrieving dummies, squeaky toys, etc. There is also a Dogloo, but any bedding I tried to put inside (towels, old blanket, carpet sample, new bath rug) got shredded instantly. As of a few days ago, I bought him a nice dog bed, punched grommets into the edges and strapped it securely into the Dogloo, where it remained untouched (at first). Everything that is not a toy is sprayed liberally and DAILY with Bitter Apple or Foey. This includes all edges of the rubber matting, the carpet strip, all visible portions of the dog bed, electrical outlets, the Dogloo entrance, the dog door and surround, and the bottom of the garage door. (No wonder I'm always late for work, between this spraying and our walk and stuffing Kongs!) Anyway, no matter what I do, I always come home to shredded bedding, shredding carpet strip, and several 1'-2' deep holes in the outdoor kennel (filled with water from our nearby drippy faucet). But the last two days, Repo really outdid himself. I came home to find a fluorescent lightbulb half buried in the mulch/mud. Repo was out of his kennel and in the yard, which was a mess. I was able to reconstruct later how he spent his day. He started by playing so hard with his bungee tug that it leapt up and slammed into a fluorescent light, breaking the part that holds the bulbs in. One of the 4' long lightbulbs fell to the floor, hitting the rubber mat. Repo then dragged the unbroken bulb through a small dogdoor to the kennel and proceeded to bury it. Then he went back inside and chewed through the straps holding the toys to the bungee rope, took the toys outside and played with them in the mud. Then he went to the chainlink gate. He had recently learned to open these, so I had "cleverly" slipped a metal clip into the hole to prevent him from lifting it. He knocked the metal clip out, and THEN lifted the latch, letting himself into the yard. He then proceeded around to each of the garden beds, digging down to the landscape fabric (just installed a year ago), and ripped it all out. And that's about the time I came home. The next day, I put leash clips on the kennel gate. I reassembled his bungee toy and gave him an extra Kong. This time when I got home, he had found the one square inch of his new, grommeted, securely strapped-down $35 dog bed that I couldn't reach to spray with Bitter Apple, grabbed that square inch, ripped the entire bed from one end to the other, and proceeded to remove every single bit of stuffing. And he doesn't even make up for this by being sweet or affectionate. He's one of those total workaholic BCs that just brings a ball 500 times every evening and doesn't particularly enjoy being petted. As I said, he'd sure better make up for this by being my first Open trial winner a couple years from now! Here is a picture of the little devil: Anybody have any ideas on what else I can do to entertain this guy until he is old enough to wear out by herding livestock? Columbia, MO

Keith, Great idea about the rugs and bones. I'm considering feeding some "raw" bones, and the rug idea would be great for teaching the dogs they can't drag them all over the house. I don't have crates set up indoors (only in the car, plus folding crates for shows), and was wondering how I was going to keep all the blood off of the floor. That's good to know this is something that can be taught so quickly. Columbia, MO

Hi everybody, Wow! Thanks for all the terrific advice. I'm going to try lots of these, as they are very compatible. I especially love the idea of the towel target. I've been putting my hand on the ground, but he always "just" misses it. It is getting frustrating for him as he only gets a 1% rate of reinforcement. That is a great idea to expand the target and work my way smaller gradually. Thanks everybody!!! Columbia, MO

RcknR, We should trade dogs--you want a puppy that will bring you the ball and drop it at your feet. My puppy does that beautifully! I want a puppy that will hang on to the ball, even when I am tugging at it. I want a very solid "hold" behavior because I compete in obedience. Our puppies must have been switched at birth! Rebecca, Thanks for the great advice. I do sometimes train a "lie down" command, but I haven't done that yet with mine. You've reminded me it's high time to get to work! Coumbia, MO

I'd love to hear the advice for this too! I have a 6 mos. old (today) BC puppy that is equally intense. He brings balls or other toys to me literally 500+ times each evening despite lots of walks, games, clicker training, etc. He'll try dropping them near me and staring to try to mesmerize me into throwing them. I NEVER NEVER NEVER will even acknowledge him if he drops the ball on the floor. I turn and walk away and refuse to speak to him or make eye contact. The only time I will throw is once in a while when he holds the toy long enough for me to actually get my hand under it before it hits the ground (under 1% of the time). However, he has NOT learned to deliver the ball to my hand (he's clueless about that part), but has instead learned that he "needs to bring it at least 100 times and drop it or bounce it at my feet" before I mysteriously decide to throw it. Normally, I would allow this behavior to extinguish by walking away time he brings the ball. However, I'm so busy trying to trick him into actually putting the ball in my hand that I am inadvertently encouraging the pushiness. It is this very pushiness that kept me from getting a BC for 20 years. My first two BCs were nothing like this, so I guess I'm overdue for the obsessive retrieving behavior! My puppy has an obsessive desire to have something in his mouth. He cannot even walk without holding something. He'll carry a toy for 2-3 steps, then see another toy so he drops the first and snatches up the new one within a fraction of a second. Five steps later, and he's on to the third toy. Yet if I throw a toy for him, he looks at me like I'm nuts. He just sits and stares at it. When I give up and begin working on my computer, he will then scoop it up and begin the obsessive retrieving and ball bouncing. I'm 99% sure it isn't so much about the ball or about play as it is about controlling the owner and seeking status. Any opinions on this? Columbia, MO

Regarding Missy's pedigree, I got to looking at it this morning, and there was a heck of a lot of inbreeding going on. Based on the AIBC numbers alone, there are at least 2 brother/sister matings (Jem/Jackie, Billie/Bright Eyes). First, Jem/Jackie produced Rock, Billie and Bright Eyes. Then two of these inbred puppies, Billie and Bright Eyes were bred to each other to produce Babe. Then Babe was bred back to her parents' sibling Rock. With this degree of inbreeding, no wonder Missy has some hip soreness! I'm so glad that her temperament turned out nice though--you got very lucky. The really confusing part is when you look at the names vs. AIBC numbers, especially the breedings between White's JR and Sissy. In one case, they produce a puppy with a number of 90410. In another case, they produce a puppy with a number of 112403, which is very close to the numbers of their two (apparent) grandchildren, Rock and Bright Eyes. Does anybody have an explanation for this discrepancy? All I can think is that the two generations had litters on the same day or so, and all the registration numbers were given out at the same time. Right now, it is too early on a Sunday for my brain to work through this tangle! Columbia, MO

Smokjbc, I'm glad for your reassurance that there are still some pedigrees of EITHER type of BC that are not closely inbred or linebred. Thanks for looking for Wisp. I had read somewhere (one of the major sites like USBCC or ABCA or whatever) that "virtually" every Border Collie in American had both Wisp and Wiston Cap in the pedigree if you looked back far enough. I do not have a pedigree for my rescue puppy (from working lines), so I can't look him up. My show dog goes back to Blwch Taff, but I only have a bit of his pedigree filled in past the fourth generation. Blwch Taff goes back to Wiston Cap though. Columbia, MO

Hi, Eileen wrote: >>Perhaps it would help if you posted a list of the top trial winners of the 60's-80's who sired 500+ puppies -- if that was indeed "typical," it should be easy to compile quite a long list. ...in the whole history of the ISDS only 15 dogs have sired more than 500 pups. I said just that: it was typical for BIG trial winners (like the International). When you consider that half of the winners are likely to be female, those fifteen dogs you mention are probably exactly the ones I'm talking about: dogs like Wisp and Blwch Taff who are in just about everybody's pedigree. Heck, my conformation champion has Blwch Taff back there! Whenever I hear about these popular sires, I look them up online, and they usually pop up on a European site (Dutch maybe?) that has bio's on all the famous International winners, along with how many litters/puppies they produced. There are a bunch that I've looked up over the past three years, and the male International winners tend to have TONS of puppies, including several of the over 500 range. At trials in this area, competitors often tell me that their Open trial winners are used at stud a minimum of once a month (often for local farmers' dogs). I'm assuming that over a 5 year period, with 7 puppies per litter, that this would lead to around 420 puppies. I was by no means insinuating that this was the norm for working BCs (only those top winners), but I do find it scary that pretty much every BC alive today goes back to Wisp--or any other single individual. I like to see lots of genetic diversity in a breed. Luckily, Wisp didn't pass along anything like CEA or whatever, but he very easily could have, as no tests were available at the time he was being bred so frequently. I would like to see some sort of rule where no dog can ever be bred more than 10 times in his lifetime. If the breeder can't get an improved puppy (or at least a replacement for the stud) after 70 puppies, I would say they're probably choosing the wrong breeding dogs. By the way, I have a question about Missy's pedigree. I see that most dogs are AIBC registered, until the dam, who is ABC registered. Is the AIBC still an active registry? I can't find a website for them online. Columbia, MO

Rebecca, I definitely agree with your statement, particularly because you qualified it with "a lot"! In my own experience with Border Collies, I see waaaaaay more inbreeding and linebreeding (in a good way) with current herding lines than with conformation lines. My conformation BC is typical for current show dogs in that he does not have a single "doubled-up" name in a six generation pedigree. And yet, he is a total clone of his Australian-bred parents, grandparents and even great-grandparents. The conformation dogs today tend to be "cookie cutters" as far as looks go. What I'm guessing is that the conformation dogs were probably highly inbred/linebred back in the early 1900's, when the BC first became eligible for conformation showing in Australia. Today, MOST BC conformation and sport breeders (with a couple notable exceptions) keep only 2-4 dogs and do not have kennels big enough to practice extensive line breeding. However, most conformation dogs still probably qualify as "inbred" from their past. In comparison, the ABCA trial people that breed in this area generally have 8-20 dogs and do a LOT of line breeding. When I look at most ABCA pedigrees online, 25-50% of the dogs in a 4-generation pedigree are owned/bred by the same person. Top trial winners frequently appear 3-4 times on a single pedigree, and the big trial winners of the 60's-80's typically used to sire 500+ puppies--I'm not sure if this is still going on. This is unheard of (so far) in BC conformation lines. My conformation dog's sire was "Pedigree Top Producer of 2004" and is an older dog that has sired a lifetime total of about 40-50 puppies. Anyway, these are just "fun, personal observations" and I'm not trying to start any flames or debates. I'm just wondering out of curiousity if the current trend in linebreeding that I see in ABCA dogs is going to end up with them someday having as standardized an appearance (purely by accident) as the conformation dogs do? Which would be bad--I love all the different styles of BC currently available. I wish I could hang around for another 100 years and see what happens! Columbia, MO

Yes, I do agree that breeding a fearful dog is as bad (likely worse) than breeding a dog with a known health problem. I am no longer on speaking terms with the breeder/co-owner of my fear-aggressive show dog. Even after realizing how problematic my puppy was, they went on to do a repeat breeding, then scheduled a third breeding between my dog's mom and a son of my dog's dad. I convinced them to cancel at the last minute... but they still bred the mom again. The breeders definitely know they are breeding fearful dogs, as 10-20% of the puppies they have bred have been returned to them, some for biting. Several have been excused from the ring for biting judges, including the bitch they kept--a littermate of my own dog. The problem with fear problems is that they are still the one problem that not a single breeder will talk about. You can see tons of websites where breeders show a photo of their champion, with the accompanying text: "Roscoe will not be bred and has been neutered due to hip dysplasia" or CEA, or PRA, or having produced epilepsy, or whatever. Breeders are admired for doing this (as they should be) and this kind of disclosure is a sort of "badge of honor." I know of several lines of sport BCs that are known by many BC people to be dog-aggressive, fear aggressive towards strange humans, etc. However, I have yet to see a single site--whether an ABCA or AKC breeder--where they say "Roscoe was neutered because he has bitten several people." Hiding bad temperaments is still considered the "normal" thing for breeders to do. Some breeders may not be deliberately trying to hide something, but are simply falling for the outdated and incorrect idea that all dogs are GOOD, loving, kind, etc. until they are ruined by those darned HUMANS! Therefore, they will blame the bad temperaments of their dogs on: "The puppy buyer didn't get him out enough," "He got scared by that Golden when he was young," "I sold him too early/late." Anything except for the fact that it is likely a genetic issue. Anyway, I hope that someday breeders will feel like they can discuss bad temperaments in their lines (and spay/neuter those dogs), just as they are starting to be comfortable about doing this for physical problems. Columbia, MO