C Crocker

Anna, That was a class act to take Lucky in her last period of life. She was your dog as much as anyone else's I suspect and the hurt is just as bad as it would be if she had lived with you all her years. Carolyn

Sure wish I did not have verrrrrrrrrrryyy slow dialup which allows no videos at all as I am sure would like to be able to see this. Your photos I have seen are great and no doubt your videos are just as good. Carolyn

Eileen, You are correct in your info on April. I was not going to enter this discussion for a multitude of reasons, however I do know April so here I am adding my 2 cents. Epic ( April's dog) and Harley ( Sandi Andersen's bitch) I believe to be litter mates and would now be 10 years old. They were ( before I knew either dogs or owners) briefly started by Jan, then went to a friend of mine as very green dogs which is when I met both ladies and dogs. Then both moved to Suzy Applegate and both owners' left their litter mates there to be trained and take lessons. Both started in Novice/Novice then up to P/N . Harley and Sandi moved up to Open and have competed up to and including a very good run in 2001 at Finals. ( In fact Sandi made the semi-finals with a dog Brock that Suzy bred and trained). April I think split her time between lessons with Suzy on sheep and Obedience at a high level with Jan. I know nothing of Obedience/Agility but have met many folks who have/do go to Suzy with their dogs who won in these venues at a nat'l level. Jan has a very good reputation with these folks in Obedience/Agility. I know of one bitch Jan had in stockdog training with Suzy for a bit. I do not remember her trialing this bitch, but maybe Jan did when she got her home. That was some years ago, I believe before Jan moved from CA. I would guess she was refered to Suzy by either April or Sandi but don't know for sure. The trial that April won the P/N class is at the Sonoma Wine Country trial in Santa Rosa, CA. It is a very very tough trial , including the P/N. Tough range ewes and handlers from all over the USA and Canada. I was extremely happy to have been 4th there this year ( 44 head) with my borrowed retired Open dog ( my dog is being trialed by Suzy so I am fortunate enough to have been given the chance to trial her two retired dogs.) Tough P/N seems to be discarded as nothing let me say the same field and same range ewes are used and it is tough. It takes some handling as well, as I can tesitfy! The one dog I trialed had won the Open Overall there twice and Res twice and I RT! The other dog had won the Open on the field where I was 4th and I was thrilled with that1 So April should be proud of her run with Epic. It was not a gimme for April. Both these dogs from Jan's breeding have been fortunate enough to have owners who sought out great training and applied themselves seriously to the ISDS style of the trialing world. This is neither an endorsement nor a critisism of Jan's program, of which I know virtually nothing. Just an attempt to set the record for two dogs from the HN program. Carolyn

You mention of running backs with the Kelpie reminded me of another thing the Welsh shepherd I refered to in my other post said to me--some of his Border Collies run on on the backs of sheep to encourage forward movement of a large flock (usually in a fenced area/lane of course) Oh and the Border Collies that do this are the same ones that he takes to the Nationals and Internaionals.

I would have to disagree with this thought you posed in this quote. I know nothing of Welsh Sheepdogs but do know a Welsh shepherd who runs approx 1500 sheep and 400 head of cattle and uses his Border Collies daily in his work. Border Collies were bred to go the distance to gather stock and do so to this day no matter the terrain. Gathers of a mile are not uncommon in everyday work. By coincidence this man also trials his Border Collies ,including being a Welsh team member for several years and competing /placing at the International. He was also one of the judges at the 2008 World Trial. That said he will be the first to tell you that his Border Collies are work dogs first, trial dogs second, as he needs them for his livelihood. In fact he told me he works his young dogs for at least a year on the farm before he ever trials them. The daily work is what trains them, in his situation. He is not all that unique in the UK. Of course you are correct that Border Collies are good workers up close as well .

But to pup a dog in training, which I thought the Op wanted to do, is not nearly that cost per hour. isnt the $50-90 you are refering to a lesson /clinic?

Sue, I am so sorry to hear you lost Bute. Please keep in mind when you feel as though you 'let him down" that sadly we cannot save them all. Three is young but from the looks of his photos, it was a good three years as far as Bute was concerned. Carolyn

Dianne, Assuming all pups got the nutrition they needed while on mom, I don't see how the litter number affects the one pup you are getting. I would look at what the parents have done, and if they are old enough what their trial record might be, if any, or how they are used on the ranch , if you are looking to trial your pup. The person I train with had a litter of 12 about 4 years ago and the majority of the pups are trailing Open, with various handlers. In other words, genetics more important than numbers in litter. Good luck with your pup. Carolyn

Hi Diane, Of course you can imagine how envious I am that that woman got nine pups from Owen's Roy! Don't know her, don't know her dogs, but do know , as you do Diane , Roy. I don't know the bottom side of this litter, but I can't imagine these pups being sold for anything other than stock work. Carolyn

See if your friend will make a quick tape of the dog's whistles so that you can listen to them shen the dog is not near. The first dog I borrowed were on the same whistles as mine, but this dog I have now is on some different and some the same but meaning different flanks. So it is taking some getting used to. One thing dogs seem to do better than us--they "transalt" our botched whistles very very well! Good luck and I hope it works out. Oh and don't wait until you "get it perfect"with your older dog--get out on that trial field-That's where you learn as fast as anywhere else. The you come home and try to learn what you find you don't know in a trial situation. And HAVE FUN! Carolyn Sorry -didn't proofread and typing too fast. "shen " in the first sentence should be "when". And the first dog I borrowed "was" not "were" . And they "translate" not "transalt" Maybe I should start using that spellcheck.

If this dog can be competitive at this age I would sure go for it. I started trialing in 07 in Pro/Novice ( I am on the West Coast, so maybe the class description is a bit different than where you live), with my dog that the trainer trialed in Nursery in 06. She was fully trained to Open level when I got her back in late 06. In 08 I loaned her back to my trainer to trial in Open and borrowed an excellent retired older Open dog from her. Similar in some ways, different in others, such as not as fast to cover sheep as my dog. I had gotten fairly comfortable with my own dog, so trialing another was a different learning experience. I had to learn to be pro active instead of reactive as my dog is quite fast and the older one not so much. I got to trial both of them for a few trials and that was even more of an education, having to change my "strategy" , such as it is for a P/N handler. This year I am borrowing another now retired Open dog so I have yet another opportunity to learn how to handle a different dog. With the older dog I am careful to make sure they are as fit as I can make them. They get ( as all mine do) daily supplements and Adequan shots every two weeks. I feel privileged to be able to trial these older successful experienced dogs . A very successful Welsh handler refered to these older dogs I have as my "wonderful opportunity" to learn. I think you may feel the same if you decide to take on this older dog you have been offered. Good luck! Carolyn

Carolyn Crocker (CA?). Hi Sue, I live in Livermore, CA. I'll get my sponsorship money out to you quickly. Thanks for doing all this work. Carolyn

I have already sponsored two handler/dog teams for this year, but I would be glad to jump in with a team of anyone's choice for $25. Carolyn

. I collected my new dog from a farm in North Wales on Thursday evening, and i'm really pleased with my choice, he's has a lovely character, lots of energy, and loves to chew! However, i'm unsure whether his mum/dad were pure breed Border Collies, i asked the farmer and he was adement that they were all Border Collie with nothing else in them.....but they look completely different to my last Border Collie named Tara (Female), i'm aware that you get short haired and long haired, i would have said Tara was a long haired Border, and my new bundle of joy is a short haired, but looking at the photos of her parents i keep questioning myself....... If you wouldn't mind, can you take a look at my website here (and let me know what you think):- http://www.sonifenton-scott.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/MyDog.htm The farmer was adement that the parents and pups were all collie with nothing else in them. One thing i would say though, the parents were SO energetic around the farm, i've honestly never seen such energetic dogs! I asked the farmer if the pups parents herd sheep, and he said 'yes - and cows!' Sure looks to be a working border collie pup to me. And both sire and dam are quite good looking as well. What town in No Wales did you buy them from? Can you register the pup, or did the owner register him by chance? Good luck with him . I think you picked a winner! Carolyn

I would guess your dog is arthritic? If you think that is a cause of his discomfort, I would try Adequan shots . I use it on my 12 year old who has arthritis and it helps her greatly. All the dogs are on a daily joint and vitamin supplement and salmon oil, but when I added the Adequan injections for the old gal I saw a great difference. I started her on the once a week protocol for 7 shots, and now I give them to her every two weeks. Good luck with your senior citizen. Carolyn

Anna, By your example , for me, you have hit the nail on the head. It's the connotation of the word which may differ from person to person. Personally I own a working border collie and I raise reined cowhorses. Makes sense to me, maybe not to all. Carolyn

This comparison to halter AQHA horses to working AQHA horses is very much along the same lines as comparing the conformation show border collies versus the working border collies. Although it is a valid concern when one sees the halter horse, not to worry, there are plenty of folks raising true working bred AQHA horses. I raise reined cowhorses and I assure all that they do not in any way, pedigree, looks, ability, and longevity resemble that photo of the halter horse. And no other breed can top the cowhorse -bred AQHA ( or APHA) horse at it's job. It's really no different than the show border collie versus the working border collie. Carolyn

What a lovely sentiment you have expressed toward your dog. You sound as though you have both been lucky with this match. Carolyn

Becca, I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your Ben. These dogs work their way into our hearts and I hope as time passes you will smile when you think of Ben. Carolyn

Of course I don't know your exact situation, but but I would say if your trainer "cut you loose", and by that I think you mean you are left to your own devices to carry on with your dog, then that to me would be a problem. When my dog came home after training, I worked her at home by myself to get a feel for her and (hopefully) get her used to working for me with my not so great whistles. Tested the waters so to speak. Then it was on to lessons once a week, as close to that schedule as I could keep it. In our lessons, depending what was happening any given moment, I was told what to do in a "training" session with my dog and also how to respond to the same action in a trial( which is often different from one another) to correct whatever the dog was doing at that moment. Always the two were differentiated and the info came hard and fast, as the dog was working. I feel everyone is different and there are many different goals for all. For me I have had that experience of training ( using the term somewhat inaccurately) my old(er) dog and she made a fine ranch dog. I wanted more than I had the tools for so went the way I went with the next dog. Seeing the numbers of Open handlers who sent young dogs to my trainer to start reinforced to me that having a trainer work with my dog was an ok plan. We all need to do what we want the way we want to and enjoy the dogs. Carolyn

Been there done that! For me the Pros were--my dog got a great start that I had not enough knowledge to give her. I went up to see her work every few weeks and through some watching saw some of the work done with a young dog. I did alot of research before picking a trainer--taking lessons with my old(er) border collie with this trainer, seeing the facility and getting a feel for the program. And the key is that it IS a program. Any person , even a great handler, can take your dog for training, but unless that trainer actually puts quality time in, you have wasted money and gotten your dog off to a bad start. I left my dog there for more than two months , but that was my choice. I have not stopped taking lessons with her since and I am trialing her and I love it. The cons for me--none. All the posters I think have given you great advice. Good luck! Carolyn

Her breathing, while somewhat labored before, is changed that now. On exertion, her breathing rattles -- IOW is noisy and audible where it wasn't before without putting your ear to her chest. I'm hoping that the rattling is a sign that the congestion in her lungs is breaking up and not that it's getting worse. . Keep her in your thoughts and prayers and send all of the good vibes you can muster our way, OK? Oh, and thanks. I am sure you are doing this, but I would immediately report any change in her breathing to your vet . I don't believe it's uncommon to have to change the meds during treatment for this type if illness, so frequent updates could help your vet with his/her decisions. Will think good thoughts. Carolyn

[ ETA: If anyone would still like to donate to the Ovarian Cancer Awareness Walk, you can do it online at www.ovarianawareness.org Select Joan's team name (Joan's Knightingales) from the list to give us credit. The walk is next saturday, Sept 27th, so there's still time. Thanks again to everyone. Done. Hope alot of money is raised. Carolyn

I would love to enter. Tell me what to do- how much --where to send money. I would enter both Lyn and Bet--if we want to be accurate put me in P/N-if we get to dream-put me in Open! I hope your trial raises tons of money. Carolyn