Pat Warne

Hi guys, In case any of you aren't on Sheepdog-L, I just posted the message below to that list and will be interested in seeing the responses. I haven't been on the Boards in awhile, so missed most of this discussion, but I have a 17-month old pup, so far unaffected. **But** out of her litter of 5, 2 have started seizing, one male clustering at 13 months of age, the other -- a female -- with one seizure about a week before she came into season for the first time at about 16 months. Turns out the sire, unbeknownst to me or the dam's owner, had thrown a few epileptic pups in the past. And now we know the hard way that the dam is a carrier for this probably recessive gene. Oy...... I, too, am confused re the number of ongoing studies (i.e., the Missouri study and the one Mellissa is involved in) trying to find a marker. Given the difficulty of getting the samples and all the relevant info, are they really not pooling their efforts. I am a research scientist at a big medical center funded (very very competitively) by NIH grants, so I know the science game. But the point should be to find the gene/marker, not win the first publication prize (ok, off the soap box). Anyway, I certainly could get samples from this entire litter and the Mom. I would think they would want both affected and unaffected dogs from the same litter, no? Here's what I posted to the other list......... Dear list, I know there is no DNA test for epilepsy (as we now have for CEA), but what are people's impressions of the prevalence of idiopathic (i.e., inherited) epilepsy in the breed? I would imagine that no one would breed a dog that itself had epilepsy, but do people routinely research the history of seizures in the lines behind (and along side of) the (unaffected) dogs they are considering breeding in order to judge the odds of them being carriers of the gene? If a dog has thrown several pups or has sibs or 1/2 sibs with diagnosed epilepsy (as opposed to seizures brought on by infection, environmental causes, etc.), would people pull him/her from their breeding programs or, alternatively, at least let anyone who might be affected by such breedings (i.e. puppy buyers or stud dog/dam owners) know about the possibility (however slim) that the dog may be a carrier of the gene? I understand that inherited epilepsy is genetically complex: the consensus seems to be that it's an autosomal recessive mutation, but I gather it may be polygenic (ie more than one gene involved); so we probably won't have a test any time soon that can give us any guarantees. Thus, it may be all the more important to be vigilant and candid about the situation. It has affected me and my dogs recently, and I'm wondering how to make decisions about taking future pups or planning future breedings and what the consensus is (if any) among you. Thanks, Pat

Hi Joan, Glen's Pat here. Remind me again how old Dhu is and when/how you found out about her impairment. I had Glen out on sheep the other day and it's clear his hearing has degenerated. Plus, I think that the "I know I'm supposed to be doing something, but I don't know what it is and this is making me shut down" thing is operating, too. It was kind of a disaster. Meanwhile, he's having a grand old time watching TV, playing ball, and running in the parks, etc. I'll be getting a vibrating collar soon, to train him on a recall for when his hearing totally goes. I say this, not to be discouraging, but to keep you sensitive to the fact that there will come a time when continuing to work Dhu will be more stressful and upsetting to her than not working her. I know it's extraordinarily painful and sad, but there you are. And I know ultimately, you want what's best for her. That said, you should contact Dave Fetterman who has Leah who is deaf (e-mail me privately and I'll send you his address). He's working with two electronic collars (actually one collar but two receivers -- one on the right side of Leah's neck and the other on the left. He has them in vibrating mode only, and he's training her to take "come-bye" when the left one vibrates and "away to me" for the right. Then I think both are a lie-down or some such thing. It's not perfect and limited in terms of subtlety and variations, but it's an option. Of course, the issue will be whether your sanctioning organization lets you trial her this way or not. But if you just want to work her for fun and/or maybe run her non-compete, it would allow you both to still have fun at it. Pat

Hi folks, There is kind of a parallel thread under "raw food" here and I've just posted there, too. That post was re my 1 y.o. Kate who was critical with with HGE two weeks ago (doing fine now). Similar to RDM, the vets all had a field day of course. :confused: Thanks to Laurie for her post. This is more like what I was feeding. My source for backs was 39 cents/lb so it's hard to forego that. But I will. I'll try to find quarters and whole chickens on sale, etc. I see the point of increasing the ratio of muscle meat to bone and doing whole foods as often as possible for many reasons. I'll still probably feed Bravo, too -- it has a lot to offer in terms of convenience and is still much much better than kibble. I have two distributors near me with whom I don't want to compete or I'd do what you do, which is basically become a distributor. I think you need to order 500 lbs at a time to qualify for their distributor rates. I don't have the freezer space right now, but with 6 dogs, should probably consider it. I am also going to add some probiotics and tripe; which I hadn't been doing. Six dogs presents a challenge for me, not only in terms of money, but also in the logistics of giving them all their shot at working whole food slowly without causing any fights. I think they eat faster than I'd like because there is some competition going on (tho I try to feed them spatially dispersed, if you know what I mean). Two are retrievers and it's amazing how desperate they get for food no matter how much you feed them Pat and Miss Kate -- who made it through her first year as of yesterday!!

Hi folks, Not heat stroke for Kate. More and more, I think it was an unfortunate confluence of a slightly depressed immune system (approaching 1 y.o. and first heat?? stress from new dog in the house??) and challenge from the chicken backs that she must have gulped in such a way that some significant bone pieces made it past her stomach into her lower intestines. BTW, she's doing really well, and in another week or so, I'll probably be switching her back to raw. There is some really weird kibble out there Just want to make sure her gut is completely healed before I introduce any potential pathogens. And no chicken backs!! Of course the (*&%^ she's eating in the back woods and the state park are probably challenging her gut enough!! I went on the Yahoo rawfeeding list for awhile and, altho there was some good info (which I will incorporate -- I now see the merit of only 10-15% of the diet being bones, etc.), I must say they are a intense bunch. They border on fanatic and rude (even the moderator has had to remind them to be civil). It was a creepy list -- tho there were some nice and supportive folks there, too. But I will be using larger cuts of meat with higher proportion of muscle meat to bone (e.g., chicken leg whole quarters that they have to work on rather than backs or wings). Thanks to that group for that. Re heatstroke, RDM is not the first time I have heard of a dog who had heat stroke becoming more sensitive in the future. Seems to lower the dog's set point at which heat stroke is triggered. Another reason (besides the obvious) for us to be very careful about cooling our dogs down in the summer. thanks to all of you again for your support. Pat

Thanks Annette. I did just join that Yahoo group. What you say makes a lot of sense. I can't believe how hard it is to switch them back to kibble. I need to "digest" this a little more before I start raw again, but I hope you (all) don't mind if I turn to you for advice and support. Pat... and Kate who is turning one year old tomorrow!

OK folks, I was feeding raw for about 6 years with 4-5 dogs ranging from mini LH dachshund to border collies to lab to golden retrv. -- all without incident. Then the week before last, my 1 y.o BC pup came down with HGE (hemorrhageaic gastroenteritis) and was critical for a few days. You can imagine what my vets all said -- dietary "indiscretion" -- well, actually I had fed her those chicken backs on purpose. Oy. I've been feeding raw, rotating among whole chicken backs and various Bravo ground mixes for years. On Monday I fed backs. On Tuesday I fed Bravo ground beef/veggie mix and Kate only ate 1/2 her meal. Then threw up later in the evening. I didn't think much of it. Wed AM she was clearly lethargic and not herself. Threw up a couple of times. I brought her to my vet (who had broken her ankle two days before having been sideswiped by a sheep). She was dehydrated with a 105 fever (Kate, not the vet). Xrays showed bones in her lower digestive tract, but scattered along the length -- not a bolus indicative of an obstruction. Still, those bones had clearly gotten past her stomach. They got the fever down and hydrated her, but didn't have facilities for 24 hr care so I brough her home. By Thurs AM she had deteriorated again and threw up what little water she had been able to drink, so I rushed her to a 24 hr vet. Xray that morning was clear -- no bones. But her fever was up again and she was dehydrated. She went on IVs again and heavy duty antibiotics and it was 3 days before I could bring her home. Now she's right as rain. The vets admitted that while they were tending to think this was due to bones/ and/or raw, it could have been due to her eating sheep poop during training just as easily. So here's the problem.... If I had lost her I would have died. I can't bring myself to feed raw, but hate the idea of kibble and, not surprisingly, none of my 6 dogs is doing particularly well on it. It was much easier switching them (including Kate at 7 weeks old and two adults I recently acquired) to raw than from raw back to kibble. I have a freezer full of beautiful chicken backs and some Bravo. Compared to kibble, it seems like such a pure way to feed. But I just cannot bring myself to do it. I'm beside myself. I'd love to hear what you guys think. Also, if there is a vet on these boards, I would be very curious to hear her/his take on all this. What should I do???? I'm losing sleep on this (not to mention the GI distress all the dogs seem to be in now -- tho nothing like Ms Kate had). thanks Pat

Hi Robin, What's the latest? Keep us posted; hugs to Belle. Pat

Hi all, Kate's home and is terrific. She's really back to her old self. Still on a bland diet for another day or so, but all looks normal -- oh yeah and loooooottttttssss of antibiotics for another week or so. But my girl is back. That spot on my bed is filled again. Crisis over. The discharge vet was very balanced about this whole thing. He doesn't feed his own dogs raw and he sees pros and cons to it, just like pros and cons to feeding commercial foods. But, interestingly, he said that hemorrhaegic gastroenteritis -- HGE -- which is what she had, can be due to a broad spectrum of things. It could have been aggravated by undigested bones... but maybe not. It could have been due to feeding raw food... but maybe not. It could have been due to eating sheep poop (who, us???).... but maybe not. And the list goes on. So now I'm just enjoying her and letting her eat white rice and Gerber's chicken baby food for another day or two. thanks to all for your input and support. Pat

So, since no one answered the original question (!!!), I'll tell you what I pay: $20/hr to rent. This is in NJ about 30 miles outside of Manhattan, so factor that in. (there are some other things you could factor in, too, but we won't go there......)

Hi All, Sorry I've been out of communication, but I've been having a rough week with Miss Kate. I brought her home Wed night, but she got much worse overnight, so took her to a good 24-hr care multi-vet practice that I've used for years. It was compounded by the fact that my "favorite vet" got HBS (hit by sheep) and broke her ankle ( =-O ). So Kate really couldn't be managed well by that small practice. Anyway, she's been in the hospital since yesterday AM where she can be treated and monitored around the clock. When I brought her in she was weak, somewhat disoriented, still vomiting, and had a fairly hi temp. Worry was E. coli into the abdomen from the tears in her gut and/or pancreatitis. But all bloodwork was normal, so we seem to have dodged those bullets. This morning her temp was down from 105 to 101, and her vomiting/diarrhea has stopped. She was much more alert, and they gave her access to water by mouth which she's been able to keep down. She ate about 1/3 of a can of ID at 3 this afternoon, so they're waiting to see if she keeps that down and eats more. They want to keep her till tomorrow and I agree. I'd like to have her eating and drinking before they take the IVs out and I bring her home. I'm afraid to see how skinny she's gotten. She was pretty lean to begin with. Maybe I shouldn't keep my dogs quite so "slim." So now I'm surfing around trying to decide how to feed my dogs. For those of you who had asked, this was after a feed of whole chicken backs; my theory is that, atypically, she gulped some pieces down without really chewing them up and they somehow made it past her stomach's digestive process into her gut, where they did a little shredding job. So I'll be making lots of chicken stock with those remaining backs now -- not feeding them to dogs. It only takes once..... I probably will still feed Bravo tubes tho, since, as someone pointed out, that bone is really ground up. But until Kate is totally healed, I won't feed her anything raw to be certain there's no "bacterial challenge" to her irritated gut. I think after all these antibiotics, etc., her own flora will need to regenerate, etc., so that the normal mechanisms are working again. So thanks to all who responded on this. I miss my Kate!! Pat

Hi folks, I've been a big proponent of a balanced BARF (bones and raw food) diet for the past 5 years. However, this morning my 1 y.o. pup, Kate, was vomiting, lethargic, pale gums, and a 105 temp. X-rays showed that her colon is impacted with bones. I'd been feeding Bravo ground meat/bones/veggies; chicken backs; and some kibble on a rotational basis throughout the week to keep things nice and balanced. I'm beside myself with guilt and worry. Kate is stable now, on fluids and antibiotics, and perking up. But I'm getting rid of all my raw food and going back to kibble (yuck). I'd appreciate any brainstorming/support -- no "I told you so's" please. My main concern is finding a really good kibble, etc., that's not loaded with grains, etc. Pat

Hi all, Swamped at work so haven't been checking the Boards, but of course this is a topic of great interest to me. Glen -- his Royal Deafness -- is now leading a very happy in my lap (surprise, surprise) and also seems to be relieved not to be asked to do things he doesn't understand (i.e., hear) out on sheep. I'll check in again, but will be more than happy to help with any of these initiatives re Chu's research -- like at Sam's trial, etc. I have a huge grant going out in a few days. Talk to you all after that. Pat

It was the BAER test for Glen. It doesn't really tell levels of hearing, just yes or no for each ear. However, if they find hearing loss, they can turn the volume of the stimulus up and then look at the nerve response. If there is some response, they can make some very general estimates of level of loss. But it's really rough from what I understand. This was how they determined that Glen might still have some hearing in his right ear, tho no where near normal. However, his left ear did not respond to the higher volume. Joan, you should know that Glen is safe and sound and loved. If I find the ideal pet home for him I will let him go; but if I don't I'm committed to keeping him with me. One way or the other, he'll be where he should be. Dear soul. Pat

Joan, can you tell me how long ago you had Glen and noticed this "randomness?" It would help to get a sense of how long he may have had a hearing loss. Dr. Chu would like to figure that out for him. Pat

Laurie, If you could get a cheek swab (extremely simple) for DNA and send that and a copy of the BAER with age, etc., info to Theresa, I bet that would help. Ask Dave for her e-mail address to find out more. I'm so glad that this seems to be raising awareness. Deb's statement about it being heartbreaking to know what these dogs would do for you if only they knew what you wanted went straight to the core of me. That's exactly it. Thanks, Deb. Pat

PS, Theressa Chu, DVM, at the vet college in Saswkatchewan Canada is part of team conducting this study to find the gene for adult onset deafness in border collies. Her phone # is (306) 966-7126 and Dave Fetterman undoubtedly has her e-mail. She'll come and do a clinic at any trial if her expenses (flight and lodging) are paid. BAER testing is normally over $100 a pop from what they tell me (I think it's way more in the northeast -- ask Sandy Hornung). I had three dogs tested, so that was a real bargain. I tried to give Dave money, but truly Dave-like, he wouldn't take it. He and Debbie footed the bill for this one. You could maybe ask for donations or something to cover it. So, Chu BAER tests (takes about 5 minutes -- three tiny needle electrodes in the head and even the nutsiest dogs tolerate it well) and then takes a cheek swap for DNA. She set up in Dave's trailer on-site and everything is on a laptop connected to a portable printer. You get the printout, signed by her, as your record. She's particularly interested in young/middle aged dogs with hearing loss and old (10+) dogs without hearing loss. But she'll do all comers. Joan Worthington and I gave her Gene's Nell (9.5 yrs with terrific hearing) and her full littermate, Joan's Tess (deaf), so that was good for the study. And Theressa is a lovely and committed person. She talks about the study to you; explains what you're seeing on the traces. She even adopted a 4 year old dog they found was deaf at a previous trial clinic! She understands trialling and the way we depend on hearing in a very specific and refined way. So she puts her heart where her job is, too.

Joan and Sam Yes, random behavior -- that was exactly it. Like he heard something but he couldn't distinguish what it was so he just did **something**. And, of course, a significant amount of time it was the wrong thing and he got corrected -- hence, the learned helplessness behavior and shutting down. You know, I'd suspected this since last year. Sometimes he would stand there and I'd know he heard something but I had the eerie feeling he didn't know where it was coming from. That's when I thought it might be differential -- just one ear, so he was having trouble locating the source of the sound. But, hearing loss sounds like such a cop-out (we even joke about "selective hearing") that I kept second-guessing myself and thinking I'd just not been able to be the right handler for him, or that he just had so much psycho-baggage with him. So I kept putting off getting him tested. Thanks, so much thanks, to Dave Fetterman -- for whom this has been a very personal journey with his Leah. Glen has profound bilateral hearing loss. Possibly a small response still remaining in the right ear. He still seems to hear (reacts with his back to me) around the house if he's not very focused on something else. So, I cried the other day -- but for what we've all been putting the wee Glen through, not really for the loss of a potential open dog. Now what? I won't place him unless I find a very, very special home. So he fills a "slot" in my house. Ahhhhh well, where have I heard that before? I just hope I can let him play around on sheep enough with no pressure to make him enjoy it. When Gene and I are just standing around talking and not paying attention to him, he works them around us and clearly likes it. He also like his outrun,lift, fetch, and it's lovely. So that's what we'll do for awhile. My main problem at home is my psycho golden retriever, Zoe, who bites every dog that comes into the house. 9 years old and still going strong. Oy, as we say in NY. Those competitive Reggie genes. So, it's not really the space Glen is taking up, but the dynamics of adding a 6th dog in the house that worries me. Otherwise, I'd be looking (again) for my open dog. Well, we'll see what happens. I just want to say how important it's been to me, even before this, to hear of others' experiences with Glen. Without exception, everyone has a soft spot for this dog, and everyone had problems with him. Everyone, and I mean everyone, says how glad they are that he has a good home with me. That lets me know that I'm not a total screw-up as a handler. And it also means there is this little family of Glen people up and down the East Coast. So thanks to you all. Joan, make sure I meet you when I'm down your way (probably only Sam's trial gets me down that far). and Glen gives everyone a big sloppy hug..... Pat

I'm just copying this post this here in case some of you folks didn't see my reply to Mark's post on the "health and genetics" section. And because a lot of you seem to know my dog Glen. So here goes.... I would like to second Mark's thanks to Dave Fetterman for the BAER testing clinic held at his trial this past weekend. I was one of those who found out that I have a deaf dog. My Glen is bilaterally severely hearing impaired, and, while he has some residual hearing, he will soon be completely deaf. He is 7 years old and I bought him two years ago hoping he could take us into Open. While this is a heartbreak, it certainly explains a lot for this bighearted dog. He's been offering random behaviors on the field in response to whistles or verbals, or just shutting down. In retrospect, I think that for a long time now he's been hearing enough to know something is being asked of him but not enough to know what that something is -- especially at a distance, i.e. for ranch courses. And he tries and tries and tries and you can see him stressing out and then just shutting down. I am only sorry that he's spent a significant amount of time being corrected -- however mildly -- for something that was not his fault and was undoubtedly confusing and upsetting to him. Being the soft dog he is, it caused him to shut down and get into a kind of "learned helplessness" mode. For the near future, I'll keep letting him work sheep on his own terms, and hopefully he can still have some fun with it. He's quite nice on close work and has a gorgeous gather -- although a silent one And he'll just be the lovey dovey house dog that he's so good at -- either with me or a really good pet home. I know that lots of people on the Boards know -- or have tried to work -- Glen. So now you also know what at least part of the problem has been. Pat

I would like to second Mark's thanks to Dave Fetterman. I was one of those who found out that I have a deaf dog. My Glen is bilaterally severely hearing impaired, and, while he has some residual hearing, he will soon be deaf. He is 7 years old and I bought him two years ago hoping he could take us into Open. While this is a heartbreak, it certainly explains a lot for this bighearted dog. He's been offering random behaviors on the field in response to whistles or verbals, or just shutting down. In retrospect, I think he's been hearing enough to know something is being asked of him but not enough to know what that something is. And he tries and tries and tries and you can see him stressing out and then just shutting down. I am only sorry that he's spent a significant amount of time being corrected -- however mildly -- for something that was not his fault and was undoubtedly confusing and upsetting to him. Being the soft dog he is, it caused him to shut down and get into a kind of "learned helplessness" mode. For the near future, I'll keep letting him work sheep on his own terms, and hopefully he can still have some fun with it. And he'll just be the lovey dovey house dog that he's so good at -- either with me or a really good pet home. I know that lots of people on the Boards know -- or have tried to work -- Glen. So now you also know what at least part of the problem has been. Pat

Lord, go away for a few days and look at the rumors. You southerners have a weird take on life. Glen unfortunately is a dog (OK, so he **is** the most intense and consistent affection I get these days), and he's usually trying to enter my brain by going down my throat -- the lap is just a stepping stone. However, as I tell people, I don't take it personally. It's more like "I love you,, I love you...., who are you again?" It's truly amazing just how maaaaany people in how many states know him. Some (few) days he's on, and some (most) days he's just, well, Glen. Oy. Is he deaf? Is he a basket case? Whatever.... he's eating groceries as Sam would say, but has a home for the rest of his life (sigh).....

jeez, you guys are having much too much fun. What's a girl from the north to do? pat

Joe Anne et al. You should definitely go to trials -- but for **you**, not the dog. You should go to start meeting people, observing how handlers handle, seeing dogs, getting familiar with how trials are run, and networking. Offer to scribe for the judges -- it can be a real education and you'll start to feel part of the party. Don't feel uncomfortable -- these are the absolutely nicest people and, tho I've only been trialling for a couple of years, I think I can count some of them (including some of those posting to this board -- you know who you are) as my friends. They have been incredibly welcoming, sharing of wisdom and insight, and supportive. Plus, they tend to be a hoot at the handlers dinners [[alright, I feel like an idiot -- how do I get those instant gremlins in the message for real?]] Anyway, back to the post -- People will tell you about teachers, offer to have you come work with them. I can't say enough. Yeah, I take my pup who isn't trialling yet out of the car/RV to watch sometimes, but mostly it's for me. I don't think the dogs really get much benefit from watching (tho it's kinda nice to see a young pup focus in on sheep from your lap). And, watch the very novice runs as well as the open runs. You'll see all the eloquence and all the screw-ups, so you won't feel so reluctant to get out there yourself. And you'll see how much everyone is rooting for the new handler and dog who walk on the field for the very first time. Welcome aboard!! Go to the NEBCA and VBCA websites to find the trials. Pat