Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

As a scientist you know better than to tout divine retribution It is the fruit of undertaking a task without full knowledge of the science behind it and then having it blow up.

Black dogs with blue eyes do not readily occur in shelties unless the dog is a merle and it is not likely to have the merling pattern over eyes but not coat. Generally, if you see a merle with lots of black color on the head you will see brown eyes. I would look to other black with blue eyed dogs' genetics for answers to this, like sibes. In shelties, white factoring can be determined on a colored dog by checking the stifle for white. If the dogs stifles are white then the dog is white factored. Two dogs bred with white going up the stifle have a 1 in 4 chance of producing a Color Headed White pup (not called white factored although the dog has white factoring on both sides). If one of the parents happens to be a merle than said white pup has a 50/50 chance of also being a merle. This often can look like a "double merle" or "homozygous merle" but it is not. As I said before, I would look to other forms of recessive coloration genes and their risks for sight and hearing impairment. Breeds I would look to for this information are Sibes, Dobermans, and Dalmations. Because their coloration is more limited than BCs they can more easily define their problems. BCs share the same color genetics as these breeds as well but they do not always show up because of the wide variety of type of color gene influence. I bred Shelties for quite a while and I studied their genetics quite extensively. I showed Dobies for quite a while and even though I never bred them I did come to understand how they got blues and fawns (or isabellas) from black or red dogs. In short they are a dilute as well and those blacks and reds that produced them are also dilute to an extent (not just carriers), but they don't show it until they are bred. When I first looked into BC color genetics I was impressed with the sheer variety of color genes in the breed. It proves to me that these dogs were never selected for color. And it also explains why mostly blacks, reds, and sables, were ever bred, with recessives cropping up so infrequently. Why limit the pool of dogs to choose from if the odd colored ones can have so many problems? If we fully understand the genetics (which old time farmers didn't and to an extent, the BC community isn't all that much better today with having it all figured out-JMO), then we can easily know how to breed that odd colored dog so that we don't have problems with the young. BUT that is only if that dog is the hottest herder since sliced bread. Not that I think it's impossible that the one dog is a phantom merle but in shetland sheepdogs, which are way more overbred than BCs you see it very rarely. This would be the second genetic discussion we've had in two months (?) where we are suspecting a phantom merle. I think that this breeds lack of selecting for color has created a wide array of possible combinations which is akin to mixing a bunch of house hold ingredients. Each is a simple solution and you can mix some of them together in different combinations with no incident and maybe even create something interesting but at some point you are going to mix up a cocktail that has consequences.

I have only heard of emu in that it's healthy lean meat.

I was crushed when I found this info! I'm half spaniard and we believe that garlic, olive oil, lemon, and yogurt are pretty much all the medicine anyone needs I still wouldn't hesitate to fry it up in olive oil and give a few finely minced pieces to my kids every so often. When I was a kid I had a pet first aid book that gave a recipe for dogs with sick stomachs. It was a ground beef and onion mixture, believe it or not. I was 10 when I got that book, that was 25 years ago. Corey- no beer or ale for Barra! Don't you know BCs should never drink & drive! ahem...or fetch Oh go figure- Potato was on that list of toxic foods too!

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cl...&articleid=1030 this is one source.

I've been feeding whole prey now for almost 6 weeks. I've fed another form or raw before where they got daily portions and that went fine. I fast them on the odd day and no grains or carbs of any kind are fed. Ironhorse they will eat the garlic if I lightly sautee it in a drop of olive oil for sure! I love garlic myself and believe it has lots of good uses for the body. I'll let everybody know what happens. I'll start with daily portions for a week and then give the garlic.

Thanks Donna, They get 2 lbs of either chicken (1/2 of a whole one), a slab of beef ribs, pork necks, or pork hock every other day. I have 2 hard keepers and one very easy keeper so the easy keeper gets about 1 1/4 lbs every 2 days. They do get some meatier cuts inbetween but these meats are the most readily available. There isn't anything in their teeth Ironhorse, were you serious? I'd try that! -well just about anything but last I heard garlic was just as bad for dogs........? I'd LOOOOOVE garlic breath over this. Smells like I have road kill in my house some where.

I posted about gas before and it's not gas. Their breath smells like rancid meat hours after I've fed them. Is this common? Is there somthing I'm not doing right? We can't stand the smell- help please!

Never fed gaines burgers but I fed my Persian Cat Purina Tender Vittles, he was a very sick kitty most of his life and that was the only thing he would eat. The Dog: I had to switch between dog chow and gravy train because he waan't an easy keeper either. He was an outside dog and ate poorly in the heat of the summer. I prefered feeding the dog chow because it didn't seem to have the dyes that the other did. I have a good friend that feeds her 5 dogs Dog Chow to this day - she used to feed Eukanuba. Ran into a rough time in life and had to feed something cheaper. When things got better, her dogs were doing so well that she didn't feel the need to switch back. Sometimes, I wish I could get over my "dog food phobias". This is what happens when one reads too much

Two more off my head: Say your prayers. and Are you shy? Sounds like lots of fun!

I think we all fed substandard foods at some point in time. The argument made to me eons ago was by a vet that said that Ralston Purina put so much money into canine nutritional research that they could not possibly be wrong. What he failed to realize is that they are a company working within broad guidelines of what is reasonably safe (ie. won't make the dog/cat drop dead over night) and will keep animals alive. So if they do the minimum they make money and if they do something a little better then it's "premium" and they charge more and they still make lots of money. The point is that as a company they need to make more money than they need to provide ideal nutrition because they couldn't make the same profit margin doing so. That's my take on the whole thing anyway.

You're right Mark! And when I'm wrong I expect and hope that someone more knowledgeable will correct me. This is the type of dialogue that I learn from - you and Renee have actually taught me quite a bit and I thank you for it.

Ironhorse: Wow. I'm so sorry. I feel so bad for you. Bless you for caring. If I can do anything for you guys, please let me know. I'll keep you and your family in our prayers. Hug Thunderbolt and know that he is safe and much luckier than the dogs that you had to leave behind today- take a little solice in that. I'm crying here myself Ironhorse, I never wanted you to learn this way.

RDM, Short of DNA testing the dog and the parents, no. The AKC requires chip or tattoo for ID but not at litter registration. At least last I checked. They don't enforce the IDing either. I've never been to a show or trial where any ID was checked. Edit: the ABCA is more relaxed because they probably know it isn't feasible to enforce. The result would be less registered litters I think

No it is not required. Canada has much more strict requirements of breeders to permanently ID their dogs. I have a Canadian tatooed dog.

Hey Miz, I understand why you feed Boyden this way because you are trying for life enrichment in letting him "scavenge". But in a dominant dog this is probably not a great idea. If pack order is generally defined by who controls the resourses, mainly food, then having him find his own food, in his mind removes his dependance on you for that resourse. He is capable of ensuring his own survival then and doesn't need you. And the domestication of dogs is based primarily on them needing a relationship with us for survival. So even though you are doing NILIF with him, you don't control the resourse that is his main drive for survival (Food, since he's neutered) so the of your work doesn't have the effect it normally would. So maybe this is a piece of the puzzle too. I do think it is several things causing this not just one and just trying to help you get to the roots of it. I'm doing loads of reading as I'm sure you are too.

Hi everybody, My dogs are about to run me out of the house with the smell! They smell like rotted meat from both ends! They are smelling like this often. The first bony meal they got this week was chicken and I did feed the whole critter. Most of them didn't finish. Late last week they had chicken too but before that they had a slab of ribs each and 3 out of 4 of them not eating any bone. Am I feeding too much bone? I don't get it at all - HELP! I don't think I can take it and hubby is about to toss us all out into the desert! Thanks,

I agree with Kim. Everything I've read too says you aren't to push the dog into escalating that aggression. As a dog groomer, I've learned that there are some dogs you can supress to just get things done with verbal correction or by lifting all 4 feet off the ground (with 2 hands)and there are some dogs that you can't. Those are the ones that you get a muzzle on to groom them, and some of those dogs have escalated over the years of muzzling that you can no longer muzzle them without much danger to your hands or face so they get tranquilized. Remedial Behavior Mod is really what you need here. I do think that with you bringing Fynne over and him being cages and not able to get away that you behaved in a away he didn't expect that you broke trust with him and that is why he reacted that way and an underlying cause for all that could be the high BUN/protien and meds could indeed help. But because this is such a complex situation you need someone (Veterinary Behaviorist?) to watch what is going on between you. You did the right thing backing up, the only way I get near a dog who's eyes have gone hard & flat like that is with a snare pole and only if I *had* to. And it would totally break my heart if my dog behaved that way toward me. Kim I have to ask. Is behavior councilling backed by a standardized theory? I would like to see more of my sources line up so I can avoid further confusion. I ask because the book/text? I'm reading breaks aggression on to Interspecies and Intraspecies and then with aggression being either predatory(offensive) or as in the case with most humans defensive. Any suggestions for reading material, that won't give me a migraine or make my eyes fall out (sorry, I'm adjusting my meds today). I'm totally committed to learning but I'm not ready to read doctorate material for doctors- I need undergrad syle reading. I have no problem paying upwards of $80 - $100. for a book as long as I can learn something from it. OT: BTW Miz, No I haven't killed anyone, the meds take a little of the edge off. I've asked my hubby if it would be ok for me to withdraw for a week. I think the meds are too high a dosage for me. I experienced terrible headaches yesterday, and jitteryness and insomnia,- the success rate for this med long term is only 1% higher at 300mg vs 150mg. It is just physical pain and mental pain - of all the pain I've experienced in my life this is just one more and I know I'm stronger than any physical or mental pain. Neither has killed me yet. And this too shall pass. Today is so far better than yesterday and I'm going on 41 hours smoke free. I endure the pain one hour at a time and I drink plenty of juice to keep my blood sugar up until my body can learn again not to live on the adreneline response caused by smoking - Just for 3 days. I'm OK! and that is a good thing, I don't fear the withdrawl/pain, I embrace it, knowing that it is a response of my body healing itself and the duration is short lived. In 10 short days I'll be down to one little psychological craving a day and as long as I push that away (it lasts only 3 minutes- watching the clock is an excellent way to distract yourself intil it's over). Within a month I'll be brand new again! The thing for long term is to develop alternate stress coping mechanisms. And when you feel stressed and you are recovered- it is not physical addiction that makes you go back to smoking. It then becomes a conscious decision that you control, you can just as easily choose to do something else. Right now I'm using deep breathing (works really well!) and light walking. Even drinking a nice cold glass of water releases endorphins that help. I'm not saying this is easy but it's more doable than we addicts think.

Kim, I read that page by Dr. Overall today, it took me all day to read because my concentration isn't so good today. I'm on Bupropion myself as I go through some personal behavior modification-quitting smoking. I did however retain what I read because I took it so darned slow I find it interesting that every behavior that is abnormal is neuropsysiological- here I just thought underlying things like anxiety and phobias were. And so as such, a neurologist is a good place for Boy to start out and the recommendation of one does not necessarily mean a serious, life threatening thing, but along with a behavior modification treatment possibly the shortest route to lifetime management.

Nutrition and aggression: Generally it says that dogs fed high- protien diets decrease excitability and increase trainability. BUT some evidence suggests that adjusting dietary protien levels may provide a viable means for influencing the behavioral thresholds of some forms of aggression. Basically, excess protien in the blood significantly reduces the amount of tryptophan reaching the brain for the production of serotonin. Decreasing the protien intake, increasing carb intake, and adding the suppliment 5-HTP yielded a significant decrease in aggression scores. (This might help! I know you can't really give him carbs but you can give him 5-HTP, available in health food stores) Edited to add: this makes sense to me in that wild canids need to be geared toward aggression for survival so what they eat should support the hard wiring necessary for survival. I suppose in individual domesticated subjects the results could vary widely from little display of aggression to big displays - which is why we do not see raw fed dogs becoming dangerous as a whole- but this is just my musing.

Miz, I'm taking time out to read Applied Dog Behavior and training VOl. 2 by Steven R Linday. It's a bit dry and is like boring text and so far regarding aggression all I've made out is that most studies conducted seem to contradict each other and the only thing that is generally agreed on (so far in reading) is how to classify aggression and that with Interspecies aggression (humans) it's generally a defensive effort to gain control of environment. So far there is no mention of aggression induced or aggravated by drugs and the only thing they site hormonally that worked really well was to give progestin as a testtosterone antagonist, dogs became calm (to lethargic?) and after a 3 month course many dogs retained their lack of aggression but some didn't and the practice of using progestin got much criticizim because there were alternate drugs available with less side effects apparently. Based on my reading, everytime you backed off of Boy, he got a jolt of endorphins at his resulting win. This reinforces further (and more intense) displays of aggression. So you can't give him an inch and when you approach him for testing the way you did, you need to be prepared for any result so you can act accordingly without having to go back and think about it. This is not a criticizim, just a clinical type of assessment. So once again, I ditto- ErinKate! 18 hours smoke free- concentrating is hard about now. Gonna do it this time- I can change my behavior if I can change my dogs. Thats my new mantra.

In a book I read by a prominant behaviorist in this country he says that he sees regular cases of aggression in dogs that have been on corticosteriod therapy, most for allergy releif. He says that if a behavior problem is on the cusp of developing, that a time on corticosteroids could exacerbate the problem and if it was going to happen naturally, then it won't go away when med therapy stops. Incidentally, he mentions some skin problems really have an underlying cause of low thyroid and this is why the steroids, low thyroid, and aggression can be related. He recommends a complete endocrine testing and a spinal x-ray and if there is a physical problem that can be managed, then a remedial behavior modification program is likely to be successful. This is only one guy's opinion and I'm going to crack yet another book today so we'll see if there is another theory or perhaps this theory will be supported by another reference.

Miz, Kristen has some very valid points about pack order being diverse even on a given day. Based on what you said here in your post I'd say that Boy sees you as leader and Fynne sees Boy as leader and maybe Boy has the mentality that if he has pack support he can over throw you. BUT and this is a big BUT- you know your dog better than anyone and if you say something is off then you are probably right. If your vet who doesn't see Boyden every day says he's off too then that vet is a pretty darned good one (as long as you didn't say it first) and there is probably something medically wrong with him. Have you had his spine checked by x-ray for misalignment? Just another stray possibility, He could have hurt himself playing with Fynne or even when he was correcting her and went overboard that first time. Who knows? a Chiropracter might be in order. I also read where dogs with spinal misalignment will not show pain (it's a weakness) but can show aggression. My expreience with big male dogs is that if they refuse to perform on command where they were fairly reliable before - the result has been premature onset arthritis or either the back or hips. Actually my friend just noticed similar behavior in her 6 year old agility dog and on x-ray found so much wrong (including a really bad back) with the dog it was amazing that she didn't try to kill anthing that touched her. Most of these problems didn't just start at age 6 they were there from early on and got worse over time. It is always best to rule out physical stuff first before trying to dissect your dog for serious mental issues. I think swimming is a fabulous idea! Or go get a facial or a pedicure. A good facial can feel like a full body massage. I imagine you can't have massages because of your back? Or I'd suggest one of those. Sounds like an awesome day I have going for you, can I come? I'm not a true girly girl either, kind of a tomboy but I endulge in these little treats now and then and I highly recommend them.

Miz, Not sure if you even want to think about this anymore but I did some reading in Behavior Problems in Dogs by William Campbell. It's an old one for me. He writes a bit about behavior problems (aggression) that are endocrine related. All of the ones that seem like they could apply to Boy's case are following steriod prescription and in the case of thyroid disfunction following steriod use, neutering or allergies. Mr. Campbell states that dogs on the brink of certain behavioral issues that could be exacerbated by steriod use include: Aggressiveness, Excitability During Isolation, Submissive urination during stress, and Tendencies Toward Excessive Vocal and/or physical Tension-relieving Activity. So things can be exacerbated by giving him steriods and it just doesn't go away but can get worse. So your doc is on it by taking his blood. And all this stuff here is fixable if it's his hormones, ok? Annette