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Is it possible that this person "Stardew" did in fact need such a correction?

I always thought that If a dog has the "weak gene" it will frequently have a hard time moving cantankerous sheep.

Hi Pearse. First, I agree with you wholeheartedly; "instinct test" makes me cringe. Having said that, I have from time to time had the good fortune to stand with some gifted handlers/trainers when I first put some of my young dogs on sheep. All I ever see is 5-10 minutes of chaos. These fine trainers, seeing the same thing, would make some tentative suggestions as to the amount of eye present and amount of presence. Over the next year or two I would come to see that they were always spot on with their initial estimate. It never fails to amaze me how some of us can be so talented that way. charlie

Hi Donald. About 10 years ago, before I got sucked into this livestock-dog nightmare, I watched a sheepdog trial (an ancestor of what is now "Big Willow"). It was beautiful. I thought, "How hard can this be? I'll do it." Damn. charlie

I rarely have had to deal with the bottle-fed lambs, so, you know, disclaim... but I wouldn't use bottle lambs. They are barely even sheep. They don't act right at all, and the dog will be getting a very weird first impression which *might* flavor a lot of the subsequent training. The dog needs to see/feel what effect he/she has on the sheep from the very start, and I don't think you will get that very well with the bottle creatures. charlie

Regarding sheep behavior, particularly with regards to handling by humans and dogs... I always wonder which is more significant: environment or heredity. While I can often detect certain behavioral things which go with this or that breed of sheep, I always end up concluding that it's how the sheep have been handled in the past which controls how they behave. - charlie

I keep about 30 of these in support of the Navajo Sheep Project. http://navajosheepproject.com/ They are not very big. They are hell to shear. They are really cool looking. They are tough as nails. They will eat anything. They never have parasite problems. They rarely need any help with lambing. If treated right, they work great with dogs. charlie

Hi Jaime. I have some ideas - of what not to do. I give demos each year to hundreds of third graders as part of some sort of educational "farm experience" the schools set up here. Don't ask. For a while I used the good ole "Go ahead, kids. Try to pen the sheep." ploy. Naturally, the knee-knocking, brain dead sheep I use for the demos make the kids look like idiots. And then I take these overly dog-broke farm sheep and put them in the pen in 10 seconds with my open dog, who never even really has to try. The sheep see the dog and they know it's pen time. Works every time. Lots of applause. One year I even made the kids' teachers do it. The kids loved laughing at them. As did I. But. One year I somehow picked some very aggressive little third graders to try the pen. They spooked the sheep so badly the sheep squeezed through the horse panels. Demo over. I spent hours chasing the sheep through the fairgrounds (which contain the horse arena). Naturally, many other little demos were going on throughout the fairground. (This is a cow. This is a steak, etc.) I was quite the spectacular side show as I would chase a single through the "Corn: a many-faceted resource" demo, knocking over stuff, whistling like an idiot, etc. Moral: Don't involve the little bastards in your demo. charlie

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Although I am still a complete novice at agility, one thing I can tell you from my experience ... Don't use the standard Border Collie technique of pulling on their tail to control them. Tails everywhere. WTF? If my advice is too late - see Diane's post, above. charlie

If you want to do it right, stay away from that AKC stuff. Have you considered visiting Norm Close? Norm is pretty damn good. He gives lessons, I believe. He's in Coeur d' Alene. http://www.handhillsbordercollies.com/ If it makes you more comfortable, you can tell him Charlie Torre sent you - but I won't say if that will help you or hurt you in the long run.

"Brace" = Working a group of sheep with two dogs (at the same time). I, too, would like to see it over here. I've always wondered why it never caught on. charlie

Last trial I went to, I smoked too much and downed an entire fifth of whiskey. My open dog did really well. Conclusion? Anecdotally yours, charlie

How many acres are preferable? More. Always more. charlie

Women.

I never could figure out how Houdini made that elephant disappear ... I guess it really happened! charlie

I looked at the USBCHA rules and the ISDS rules and I could not find any mention of a crook. This surprised me. Did I miss something? Maybe someone will come up with something. But, even if there is something in the rules, unless you are running in open/nursery, what is allowed is completely up to the specific trial organizers and/or judge and/or course director. Having said all that, I would be very surprised if you were not allowed to use a regular walking cane. (I found a blind person's cane at a thrift store; I use it a lot in Open trials. Nobody ever seems surprised. I guess it seems appropriate.) charlie

Sure, Bill. We believe you. charlie

Is it hot in here, or is it just me?

Wow. Maybe I'm mistaken, but that was, like, a super-rationalization. Well done.

Pearse's description/explanation agrees with everything I know about this. To be sure, there will be times when flanking the dog to the side to set up the second gather is not such a hot idea from the point of view of controlling the first group, e.g., if there is a strong draw to the side. But the judge (and the hazing crew) are supposed to take care of this. In a practical work situation you wouldn't necessarily position your dog like this, but IMHO a trial is not practical work per se, but rather a test of the dog's ability to do practical work by asking it to do various specific (and to some extent artificial) tasks. Tests are often like that. Having said all this, I suspect the judge Pearse mentions just wanted to smack him in the head and would have used any excuse to do so. charlie

Au contraire.... See http://www.expertvillage.com/video/57323_d...g-away-from.htm and related videos. - charlie

Bite me, Anna.

Regarding: how much is too much, circling and wearing. It depends. People tend to do this too much, IMHO. But without seeing what is going on... Regarding: the ratio of working/training posts to the posts on, uh, other stuff... I think a lot of serious working stockdog people have a look at this venue. I think a very small fraction of them take the trouble to discuss training issues. The reason, at least in part, is that it is really, really, really, hard to know what is happening in any given situation without seeing it. You could have 500 posts on why a dog grips in this or that situation, or why a dog flanks too wide, or whatever, when an expert could likely pinpoint the issue in 30 seconds *if they could just SEE what is happening*. It seems to me it's so much easier for people to discuss their fur baby's anal glands than it is to decode a stockdog training issue over the internet. No matter how the question is posed, or how the answer is phrased, it's just such a terrible way to solve stockdog problems the result is often not valuable enough to justify all the effort. This is my theory on why the boards' discussions are as they are. Still, my small hat is off to those that take on the very challenging role of giving advice on stockdog matters. I certainly avoid doing it. (Not that my advice would be all that valuable, but you know what I mean.) charlie ETA: I somehow missed Mark's post, which seems to hit the same points more succinctly.

I use the method Anna describes, too. I've found it works best for me if I don't literally force the dog to lie down, but exert enough pressure that the dog tries to see if lying down is going to help. In other words, it's nice if the dog *chooses* to lie down. Then you say "Good dog", etc. Got my pup to do this pretty much immediately at a couple of months of age and he has been perfectly reliable with the lie down ever since. Now he is 9 months old. I just put him on sheep for the first time and, just for fun, stopped the action and said "Lie down." Needless to say, he looked at me and transmitted "You've got to be f**ing kidding me.", and took off around the sheep. Good dog. charlie