kelpiegirl

Hi Gordon

Welcome to this part of the pond What I did, and I am sure everyone does their own thing, was have a dog who needed a job, and went on an interview. My dog just nailed the interview and we were hired.

If you are serious about this, you will need a good dog. Good dog meaning, obedient, good prey drive, and a dog who's cool with people, and other animals- all of which you will encounter. There are some companies that will hire you, but there is no reason that you can't strike off on your own.

A good quality in a dog is the ability and willingness to swim. Also, my dogs rode around in a golf cart, loose, and they stayed there until I needed them. I would spy the geese from afar, scan for possible issues (golfers, people, etc), and then send. One of my dogs had no outrun, and the other did, so they effectively sandwiched them, which lead to the geese taking off. We then stayed around a bit, because in many cases the geese would circle around, and come back.

I kept my goose and sheepdog commands separate. Some people have their dogs "work" the geese, but I have my dogs remove them however I ask- sometimes that involves an outrun, sometimes that involves straight up, whatever it is, you need to be more persistent than the geese.

Remember too, that mid summer is hatching time for the goslings, and also molting time. Neither of which times should you be goosing. Best time to get rid of them is before they start nesting, like now, or sooner..

You should talk with your local fish/wildlife offices, to learn of specific laws wrt to Canada geese as well.

Ontario has big problems witih Canada geese, so you have a good start. I am sure there are other things I am missing, but so far, that's good to get you started.

Hi Kelpiegirl.

 

I'm new to the site and am going to be moving over from Scotland to Ontario in the summer. I would like to get involved in geese work and noticed from this link that you do it. Could you give me some tips on how to get started or let me know how you found getting started. Is it easy or was trying to get business hard to do.

 

Look forward to hearing about it.

 

Gordon.

I am curious as to members' opinions on Border Collies wrt meeting strangers. Basically, are your dogs outgoing, reserved or shy?

I only have one good arm, so I will keep this short.

Hi Kristine

I certainly don't ascribe to the sentiments you listed. It's just different strokes for different folks. For me, it's style. Even in agility and trick training, mine is different than yours, and who am I to judge. Sheep herding, that's just a whole other ball game.

I can totally appreciate that. Being more of an artist than an outdoorswoman, to me Musical Freestyle is much more of a partnership with my dogs than trying to work stock would be (would be for me - to be perfectly clear!). I don't have any affinity for sheep or working with them - working with my dog in that context would not be terribly satisfying, regardless of what capability my dog has. I would find it extremely unpleasant in many ways.

 

But getting up in front of people and putting on a show together - for me that's a partnership! Running Agility together - that's a partnership. Again, this is because of who I am, not because I think it's who anyone else should be.

 

I'm not saying that my partnership with my dogs is better or more satisfying than yours is with your dogs when you are working stock. But I'm not going to agree with anyone who would say that my dogs are mechanical, unnatural, impoverished, or not true working partners because we work toward different goals together and use a different type of training.

 

It's different. But not less.

Ooooh. I see. I think we are talking apples oranges, to tell you the truth. Working with a dog's natural instinct, and allowing it to blossom, versus distinct behavior requests. It's a bit like comparing correct grammar, to writing a novel. A big thing lacking here (and I admit, I have glossed over much of the previous discussion), is the process of learning, of growing, of building we cannot do that succinctly with sheepdogs. With tricks, and other behaviours, that are finite, yes, but not this. To even attempt that would be heresy, in my opinion..

Julie,

I am referring to comments made in this thread (I think; I'm losing track now) that stockdog training is "just another form of reward-based training, wherein the stock is the reward," that is, the stock become the equivalent of the click or treat. To me, this sort of view of stockdog training is completely simplistic and represents an ignorance of working stock, because while the dogs in general love to work, there are certainly dogs out there who don't love to work and if the reward (working) were intrinsic, then by definition all border collies (all the same breed) would find stockwork itself rewarding, when clearly some do not.

 

Eileen already touched on this is some of her comments, IIRC. With c/t the human is *always* in control of the feedback the dog gets. In stockdog training, the stock also have the potential to provide feedback (positive or negative) and the human can't always control all the feedback (positive or negative) the dog gets, and so the two are not equivalent and cannot really be compared. IMO. (I think in Eileen's example she referred to asking the dog to lie down while the stock escaped. If the dog is obedient to the command, it will make the human happy, which is a positive consequence, BUT it will also lose its stock, which to the dog is a negative consequence.)

 

J.

Hi Kristine

I am speaking purely from an agility perspective. As to being mechanical/unnatural, I would say that since agility is basically cueing your dog to navigate obstacles, that it is pretty much mechanical, so to speak.

OK, from an Agility perspective all of that is true. Never mind that we qualified with plenty of points to spare and she actually did have a great time out there. She is a velcro dog - always has been and always will be. That's really not the point, though.

 

How does the handler focus that you describe above translate into a mechanical or unnatural dog?

Hi Julie

Would you elaborate on :"This is also why it's rather exasperating when folks start talking about the instrinsic reward of working sheep. For well-bred border collies, there probably is an intrinsic reward, but I certainly have seen enough marginally bred dogs for whom working stock is *not* a reward to not count on the "intrinsic reward" of working to help the dog progress in its training."? I am just not picking up what you are putting down.

As to the dog overly focused on it's handler, from the video I saw, yes, that dog is too handler focused. When the dog will not move away from the handler, always looking for a cue, that is pretty much the definition of handler focused. Of course you need a measure of that, but if you have too much of it, you have a dog slowed down by waiting for the next command, and/or unable to move without direction. A dog who is is unenthusiastic about agility, generally will go off on his/her own more often than not, and is as slow as molasses- from my experience, though I know this varies.

I watched the video, and the thing I would say, is that the dog is way too handler focused.

Would you do me a huge favor?

 

Would you watch this video and tell me in what way this dog is mechanical? What would indicate to you that she could be more natural? I'm really interested in knowing exactly what you see lacking here . . .

 

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative - just trying to understand.

 

And I'm not asking whether or not you find Agility itself to be unnatural!! What I'm asking about is this how the dog is mechanical and less natural than other dogs. What about her demeanor or body language or whatever indicates the lack of natural-ism?

I have never thought about it Let's see, down, I taught him with the treat/going under my leg. Here, (recall) Danny just did, I do reinforce that, when I think about it, sometimes, with a treat, but mainly I just tell him he's good. All his manners stuff- waiting at door, not eating before I release, no leaving crate until I release was done without food reward (well, the eating when released is the reward I guess). Then, there is the sheep work- no extrinsic reward. He is one of those dogs who just wants to do the right thing, and in fact, I don't have to tell him he's wrong, rather, I just correct him at the right time, and then allow him to work. Corrections consist of using a cap on my thigh, or gloves on my wrist (I know, very extravagant). The bottom line, is that I don't strive for perfection though.

If I wanted perfection, I wouldn't have a dog, I would have a robot. My criteria are not strict, in that when I want Danny to stay out of the kitchen when I get the food ready, I don't care what he does, just that he does not cross the threshold. Other than that, he can walk around, lay down, or sit. Same goes for down on sheep. Generally he lays down flat, but some times, he sits, usually when he senses the sheep are going to bolt. It's more dynamic, I guess. One of the reasons I stopped agility, was because it was becoming all about the criteria, you know, no leaning on the start line. Perfect contact work. Perfect cross work, and perfect after the run behaviour. For me, I want a dog to do what I ask, and I leave a bit of lee way in how it gets done, as long as my basic criteria are met. I guess I am more free spirited- just look at Lucy, and you will see that

I'm curious. Do you find this with everything you teach your Border Collie? You show the dog one time, and the dog retains it for life? No reinforcement, no reminders, no corrections, no mistakes - perfect retention, perfect response to your directives every single time?

 

I'm not being sarcastic. I really want to know if this has been your true experience.

Someone wrote here, that you show a border collie something once, and it becomes a habit. I had this happen with Danny. I have video up. ONE TIME, while I was at the kitchen sink, Danny happened to drop the ball and it rolled to my feet. Seconds later, after I returned it, Danny repeated, and repeated. He was even smart enough, that when I gave him the cue (verbal) to make sure it dropped in kitchen, and not on the carpet, he did this, without me showing him. It's kind of amazing.

Lucy's father is from well known working Kelpie stud in Australia. The woman who bred him has been in Kelpies longer than I have been alive. She's a twin, and her sister too, has been in the breed the same amount of time, and in fact, they helped establish the working Kelpie council. That said, one twin prefers red/tan, and the other prefers black/tan. These ladies are in their mid 70s, and know more than I ever will about working dogs, but they still have colour preferences. I think the genetics aspect of the conversation is pretty interesting.

I guess I should have said my question was rhetorical....

Well what you asked is where P/N dogs being bred by experienced handlers fit in, so that's what I answered. P/N dogs being bred by experienced hanlders are worlds apart from P/N dogs being bred by folks who have never trialed above P/N and wouldn't know if a dog has what it takes to do open-level work if it bit them in the a$$. They think because their dog(s) has won a novice trial or two (or ten) it most certainly is a great breeding prospect, though the average farmer or open handler wouldn't touch the cross with a 10-foot pole....

 

J.

Julie, I think you are proving my point- the whole notion of the dog has to do well in open trials, is mitigated by the depth, and breadth of it's trainers experience. For instance, I can name a few top handlers who have less experienced dogs, who I would buy a pup from, wholly expecting a good potential to do very well, just based on that handler's d and b of experience.

I agree with your ETA

Julie,

Just my opinion, and I'm sure there are way more dogs being bred than my explanation would account for, but there are open handlers/dog people/stock people who I think *can* judge the value of a dog for breeding before they are performing well in open. The rule about not breeding till proven in open, is for the rest of us--those who don't have the knowledge and experience behind us to make those judgements. It's an attempt tp prevent the average *novice* handler from breeding N/N champion Moss to P/N champion Fly when the handler him/herself has never made it beyond P/N. There's a huge difference between that sort of person breeding dogs and some of our top open handlers breeding dogs.

 

ETA: And as for the "truly great dogs" quote, if the genetics (proven parents) aren't there, no amount of training is going to make the dog great. That is, you can't put in through training what isn't already there through genetics (to think otherwise is what keeps the AKC herding program alive and well).

 

J.

Now, I guess it's because it's Feb, and I am BORED, but I have a few points to make...

Regarding Sue's second paragraph. One thing I have seen, and really have to comment on, is the number of Border Collie litters existing at any given time with many of these litters (I am solely talking working purpose bred here) derived from pro-novice sires and dams. Many of these dogs are owned/handled by experienced handlers. That said, this does not fall in line with working at open level, for the parents of said litters. How then, if we follow this logic, of "doing consistently well at the open level of trialing" do these dogs (by pro-novice parents) fit in?

Many very good dogs are never bred. Many so-so dogs are bred, because they have what is considered great breeding, or breeding that is "hot" now.

There are no absolutes. As to "improving the breed" while, I commend that as a lofty goal, I doubt very much that this is foremost on the mind. Rather, that the dogs in question are solid working dogs, and should produce, with hope, pups with the same traits. The truly great dogs, I believe are not just a result of good breeding, but good training.

I'll apologize in advance but I just couldn't let these statements stand without a response.

 

Firstly, have you read the "Read This First" to understand the philosophy (including the breeding philosophy) of these boards? If you did, you would have realized that there is absolutely no reason to breed Border Collies for anything but "the work" - which is defined as stockwork. It doesn't matter one iota whether a dog is good in agility, flyball, disc, the showring, or any other performance, appearance, or pet/companion activity or aspect. What has made the breed what it is is selection for stockworking abilities, instincts, and those physical and tempermental traits required for stockwork. Not appearance, not performance sports, not any other cosmetic or fun activity abilities.

 

Secondly, just what have your dogs (and this can be a generic "you" because it applies to any Border Collie owner who anticipates breeding) done to really prove stockworking ability? Do they work on the farm/ranch in real life, accomplishing genuine and challenging work? Have they done consistently well at the Open level of trialing? Has an experienced, successful, and highly-regarded working Border Collie trainer/handler/breeder been convinced that your dogs are worthy of breeding, and might even like a pup? In other words, what is your justification and reason for breeding?

 

Thirdly, all other things equal, it makes no difference if anyone prefers a particular coat color, coat length, ear set, and so on. But the operative phrase is "all other things equal" because cosmetic aspects should never be a criteria for breeding. Now, one could argue that there are many experienced working Border Collie breeders/trainers/handlers who don't want a particular color (red, merle, white-faced, blue-eyed) and one would have to know their reason for that to say if it was arbitrary (there are strong feelings among some that certain "appearances" are not associated with as effective a working dog as others - I can't say if there is any basis in that but you don't see many red or merle dogs proving themselves as outstanding on the trial field or farm/ranch - dogs "of color" are apparently much more popular among the sport/performance folks than the working dog folks).

 

So, not to be particularly critical of you, but I didn't think this statement should stand without comment, lest other folks feel that the sentiments echoed in it were justification for breeding. For more and better reasoned arguments, you may wish to use the "search" function at the top of the page. Others have discussed this much better than I can.

Regarding this discussion- I found some really cool older videos of a UK farmer training his dogs- he used them just for farm work, maybe a wee bit of trialing. It was very VERY informative. No bells and whistles (well, whistles, yes), but clear, practical stuff. I shall have to locate this again...

Set up a video camera- with sound.

Hiya, I'm not sure if this is the roght section, but I can't find another section that seems relevent. I'm looking for some advice. I'll first give a bit of background..I have an 8 month old collie pup, he's always loved to sit in my back garden standing up at the wall, as everyone who lives in my estate stop when they walk past to pet him, and he loves all attention! However, there is one woman with quite an attitude problem, and insists that Jack (my collie) 'goes for her', I have had to get the police envolved as a couiple of weeks ago, whilst I was holding my dogs collar, while my partner opened the boot of our car to get him in, this woman and her partner walked past, and when Jack barked, her partner tried to kick him, and she shouted "I'm going to break that f*&king dogs neck". Everytime she walks past my house, if Jack is in the garden, she will cross the road to my side, and walk past flinging her arms over my wall at him. She has threatened myself and my dog several times. The police have met my dog, and agreed taht he is very friendly, but may well come across as aggressive whilst barking at the wall, so the officer, has gone and told the woman that if she feels threatened by my dog, to cross the road before walking past my house, rather than walk on my side, flinging arms at him!

 

This morning I have had a letter from the council, saying that they have had a report of a dangerous dog, that is out of control. The letter goes onto say taht as this is an isolated report, they are only looking to bring my attention to the matter, but taht a court may make a control order on the dog without proof of injury to a person, so I'm worried that all she has to do is call them back and say he's bitten her and wont even need a bite mark!

 

Should I contact the council with the police reference number and let them know what is going on?

This is just a side note... Pretty suddenly, my shoulder started hurting badly. Finally got an mri, and learned that I have three things going on- all from wear and tear, and they finally added up to an issue. He's a hard working dog, and besides the bone spurs, he may have tendinitis, which would definitely cause pain- and an anti-inflammatory and rest will help. Just thought I would mention it...

Not sure where people have been, but PETA supports ALF, ELF, among others.

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_blackeye.cfm/oid/21

How about people who support PETA, ALF, ELF, and any other groups akin, do some real tangible work, and help animals in need?

I think folks will once again dismiss PETA as the radical illogical group they are. If they WANTED to make it better for poor Phil, then they would come up with actual suggestions to do so- you know, protocols on care, feeding, time allowed on display, environmental enrichment. You know, sensible things. Instead they say we should use a robot- bottom line, they don't want people using animals for ANYTHING = pets, food, service dogs, lab animals, zoo animals, etc. Phil is just a pawn in their grab the spotlight whenever possible m.o.

Mark

We have a few at work, one in particular I have dubbed "Elvis" because he is a chunky fellow, and he seems to disappear, and reappear frequently. I have also seen a family, well, two adults, and one chublet hanging out together.

The wild groundhogs on our property are quite accustomed to us and our dogs. We can get within a few feet of them before they run off and they are not disturbed by loud noises (yelling, clapping our hands, etc.).

Did you know that there are legitimate groups out there that defend/protect animals? Groups that do not engage in all the garbage that PETA does? PETA is NOT an animal welfare group, PULEEZE do not use welfare and rights interchangeably. PETA is warped itself. The media does not have to help it.

you make this sound like a bad thing? for all the good work they do to bring about awareness about animal rights and animal welfare issues i think we can give them a pass every now and then for going over the top anal regardless, it has been proven time and time again that the media warps the message peta is trying to portray anyway - ESPECIALLY fox news.

I can answer that- no.

Liz,

 

Do groundhogs require hibernation if they are kept in climate control enviroments with regular feeding?

 

Deb

Eileen

I haven't seen the set up, so I can't offer an opinion on whether it is stressful or not. But, yes, screaming people is upsetting- even to me. What about dogs barking when working sheep? Wouldn't that also be considered pretty upsetting/stressful to the sheep? Worse, in some ways, because dogs are predators. Not sure what humans are to Groundhogs...

As to display- what about Zoos? Same deal right? How about caged animals- same thing (I am talking more rodents, birds here).

As to allowing the animal to prepare and enter hibernation- that occurs late fall, early winter, and entire purpose of hibernation is to allow the animal to survive the winter, where there is a lack of food, by reducing his/her metabolism. It has been shown in some bears even, that depending on the weather (and I am talking wild bears) some bears chose not to hibernate, if there is sufficient food.

I have to say, I am not for certain exploitations of animals (Sea World is a biggy), but I think this is yet another weak attempt by PETA to grab a headline for itself.

"If" being the operative word. It is PETA after all.

 

Well, this is what the article says about Phil's treatment: "put on display year-round at the local Pennsylvania library; denied the ability to prepare for and enter yearly hibernation; and forced to endure screaming throngs of thousands, media attention, and human handling."

 

Is there any reason to think any of that isn't true? I just saw a TV clip of him being handled in which it was said that thousands of people were present, and they were certainly screaming.

 

It doesn't seem to me that the upside of this groundhog display is so huge that suggesting a more humane alternative to it is that outrageous. Or that stimulating a discussion of whether it's humane or cruel is sad. I wish someone other than PETA had raised the question, but then, that doesn't seem to happen too often, which is why PETA garners whatever public approval it gets.

Let her settle in on her schedule, and always have her on a lead outside. She is not "yours" yet (in her mind) and she could take off running.

Thanks for clarifying. My suggestions are for you to tether him to you, so you can watch him when he is in the house, and keep him with you at night. He clearly is not adjusting to the garage. He appears to think the garage is nothing more than a large crate, which is why he is getting out. The messes you find in the garage may be related to the panic.

Does Buster sleep in the garage at night? It sounds as if what may have started as anxious behaviour has progressed to profound clinical separation anxiety. The behaviourist is good, but I would see about video taping him to see what is happening after you are gone. He may start immediately. It's serious, that's for sure.