kelpiegirl

I watched the vid, and all got from it, was that I would NOT want to introduce my dog to that. Forget the stock work issue

Tractor Supply has the Border Collie edition of it's favorite dog series. The mag came to $10.00, but it was very well done with contributions by several folks that visit/are integral to the boards. It's a nice quiet time read.

Anyone know what a waddle is?

Hi Gordon Welcome to this part of the pond What I did, and I am sure everyone does their own thing, was have a dog who needed a job, and went on an interview. My dog just nailed the interview and we were hired. If you are serious about this, you will need a good dog. Good dog meaning, obedient, good prey drive, and a dog who's cool with people, and other animals- all of which you will encounter. There are some companies that will hire you, but there is no reason that you can't strike off on your own. A good quality in a dog is the ability and willingness to swim. Also, my dogs rode around in a golf cart, loose, and they stayed there until I needed them. I would spy the geese from afar, scan for possible issues (golfers, people, etc), and then send. One of my dogs had no outrun, and the other did, so they effectively sandwiched them, which lead to the geese taking off. We then stayed around a bit, because in many cases the geese would circle around, and come back. I kept my goose and sheepdog commands separate. Some people have their dogs "work" the geese, but I have my dogs remove them however I ask- sometimes that involves an outrun, sometimes that involves straight up, whatever it is, you need to be more persistent than the geese. Remember too, that mid summer is hatching time for the goslings, and also molting time. Neither of which times should you be goosing. Best time to get rid of them is before they start nesting, like now, or sooner.. You should talk with your local fish/wildlife offices, to learn of specific laws wrt to Canada geese as well. Ontario has big problems witih Canada geese, so you have a good start. I am sure there are other things I am missing, but so far, that's good to get you started.

I am curious as to members' opinions on Border Collies wrt meeting strangers. Basically, are your dogs outgoing, reserved or shy? I only have one good arm, so I will keep this short.

Hi Kristine I certainly don't ascribe to the sentiments you listed. It's just different strokes for different folks. For me, it's style. Even in agility and trick training, mine is different than yours, and who am I to judge. Sheep herding, that's just a whole other ball game.

Ooooh. I see. I think we are talking apples oranges, to tell you the truth. Working with a dog's natural instinct, and allowing it to blossom, versus distinct behavior requests. It's a bit like comparing correct grammar, to writing a novel. A big thing lacking here (and I admit, I have glossed over much of the previous discussion), is the process of learning, of growing, of building we cannot do that succinctly with sheepdogs. With tricks, and other behaviours, that are finite, yes, but not this. To even attempt that would be heresy, in my opinion..

Hi Kristine I am speaking purely from an agility perspective. As to being mechanical/unnatural, I would say that since agility is basically cueing your dog to navigate obstacles, that it is pretty much mechanical, so to speak.

Hi Julie Would you elaborate on :"This is also why it's rather exasperating when folks start talking about the instrinsic reward of working sheep. For well-bred border collies, there probably is an intrinsic reward, but I certainly have seen enough marginally bred dogs for whom working stock is *not* a reward to not count on the "intrinsic reward" of working to help the dog progress in its training."? I am just not picking up what you are putting down. As to the dog overly focused on it's handler, from the video I saw, yes, that dog is too handler focused. When the dog will not move away from the handler, always looking for a cue, that is pretty much the definition of handler focused. Of course you need a measure of that, but if you have too much of it, you have a dog slowed down by waiting for the next command, and/or unable to move without direction. A dog who is is unenthusiastic about agility, generally will go off on his/her own more often than not, and is as slow as molasses- from my experience, though I know this varies.

I watched the video, and the thing I would say, is that the dog is way too handler focused.

I have never thought about it Let's see, down, I taught him with the treat/going under my leg. Here, (recall) Danny just did, I do reinforce that, when I think about it, sometimes, with a treat, but mainly I just tell him he's good. All his manners stuff- waiting at door, not eating before I release, no leaving crate until I release was done without food reward (well, the eating when released is the reward I guess). Then, there is the sheep work- no extrinsic reward. He is one of those dogs who just wants to do the right thing, and in fact, I don't have to tell him he's wrong, rather, I just correct him at the right time, and then allow him to work. Corrections consist of using a cap on my thigh, or gloves on my wrist (I know, very extravagant). The bottom line, is that I don't strive for perfection though. If I wanted perfection, I wouldn't have a dog, I would have a robot. My criteria are not strict, in that when I want Danny to stay out of the kitchen when I get the food ready, I don't care what he does, just that he does not cross the threshold. Other than that, he can walk around, lay down, or sit. Same goes for down on sheep. Generally he lays down flat, but some times, he sits, usually when he senses the sheep are going to bolt. It's more dynamic, I guess. One of the reasons I stopped agility, was because it was becoming all about the criteria, you know, no leaning on the start line. Perfect contact work. Perfect cross work, and perfect after the run behaviour. For me, I want a dog to do what I ask, and I leave a bit of lee way in how it gets done, as long as my basic criteria are met. I guess I am more free spirited- just look at Lucy, and you will see that

Someone wrote here, that you show a border collie something once, and it becomes a habit. I had this happen with Danny. I have video up. ONE TIME, while I was at the kitchen sink, Danny happened to drop the ball and it rolled to my feet. Seconds later, after I returned it, Danny repeated, and repeated. He was even smart enough, that when I gave him the cue (verbal) to make sure it dropped in kitchen, and not on the carpet, he did this, without me showing him. It's kind of amazing.

Lucy's father is from well known working Kelpie stud in Australia. The woman who bred him has been in Kelpies longer than I have been alive. She's a twin, and her sister too, has been in the breed the same amount of time, and in fact, they helped establish the working Kelpie council. That said, one twin prefers red/tan, and the other prefers black/tan. These ladies are in their mid 70s, and know more than I ever will about working dogs, but they still have colour preferences. I think the genetics aspect of the conversation is pretty interesting.

I guess I should have said my question was rhetorical....

Julie, I think you are proving my point- the whole notion of the dog has to do well in open trials, is mitigated by the depth, and breadth of it's trainers experience. For instance, I can name a few top handlers who have less experienced dogs, who I would buy a pup from, wholly expecting a good potential to do very well, just based on that handler's d and b of experience. I agree with your ETA

Now, I guess it's because it's Feb, and I am BORED, but I have a few points to make... Regarding Sue's second paragraph. One thing I have seen, and really have to comment on, is the number of Border Collie litters existing at any given time with many of these litters (I am solely talking working purpose bred here) derived from pro-novice sires and dams. Many of these dogs are owned/handled by experienced handlers. That said, this does not fall in line with working at open level, for the parents of said litters. How then, if we follow this logic, of "doing consistently well at the open level of trialing" do these dogs (by pro-novice parents) fit in? Many very good dogs are never bred. Many so-so dogs are bred, because they have what is considered great breeding, or breeding that is "hot" now. There are no absolutes. As to "improving the breed" while, I commend that as a lofty goal, I doubt very much that this is foremost on the mind. Rather, that the dogs in question are solid working dogs, and should produce, with hope, pups with the same traits. The truly great dogs, I believe are not just a result of good breeding, but good training.

Regarding this discussion- I found some really cool older videos of a UK farmer training his dogs- he used them just for farm work, maybe a wee bit of trialing. It was very VERY informative. No bells and whistles (well, whistles, yes), but clear, practical stuff. I shall have to locate this again...

Set up a video camera- with sound.

This is just a side note... Pretty suddenly, my shoulder started hurting badly. Finally got an mri, and learned that I have three things going on- all from wear and tear, and they finally added up to an issue. He's a hard working dog, and besides the bone spurs, he may have tendinitis, which would definitely cause pain- and an anti-inflammatory and rest will help. Just thought I would mention it...

Not sure where people have been, but PETA supports ALF, ELF, among others. http://www.activistcash.com/organization_blackeye.cfm/oid/21 How about people who support PETA, ALF, ELF, and any other groups akin, do some real tangible work, and help animals in need?

I think folks will once again dismiss PETA as the radical illogical group they are. If they WANTED to make it better for poor Phil, then they would come up with actual suggestions to do so- you know, protocols on care, feeding, time allowed on display, environmental enrichment. You know, sensible things. Instead they say we should use a robot- bottom line, they don't want people using animals for ANYTHING = pets, food, service dogs, lab animals, zoo animals, etc. Phil is just a pawn in their grab the spotlight whenever possible m.o.

Mark We have a few at work, one in particular I have dubbed "Elvis" because he is a chunky fellow, and he seems to disappear, and reappear frequently. I have also seen a family, well, two adults, and one chublet hanging out together.

Did you know that there are legitimate groups out there that defend/protect animals? Groups that do not engage in all the garbage that PETA does? PETA is NOT an animal welfare group, PULEEZE do not use welfare and rights interchangeably. PETA is warped itself. The media does not have to help it.

I can answer that- no.

Eileen I haven't seen the set up, so I can't offer an opinion on whether it is stressful or not. But, yes, screaming people is upsetting- even to me. What about dogs barking when working sheep? Wouldn't that also be considered pretty upsetting/stressful to the sheep? Worse, in some ways, because dogs are predators. Not sure what humans are to Groundhogs... As to display- what about Zoos? Same deal right? How about caged animals- same thing (I am talking more rodents, birds here). As to allowing the animal to prepare and enter hibernation- that occurs late fall, early winter, and entire purpose of hibernation is to allow the animal to survive the winter, where there is a lack of food, by reducing his/her metabolism. It has been shown in some bears even, that depending on the weather (and I am talking wild bears) some bears chose not to hibernate, if there is sufficient food. I have to say, I am not for certain exploitations of animals (Sea World is a biggy), but I think this is yet another weak attempt by PETA to grab a headline for itself.