Turner, Andrea

I personally do not believe in culling and for me it is not culling a pup if you have to have that pup put to sleep at birth if it has a health defect - I had 3 pups born back in 1990 with no umblical cords and they would have died a slow death so the vet came and put them to sleep for me asap That is not culling For me culling is to get rid of pups just because they do not suit the breeder - colour ,coat etc or because a breeder decides that there are too many pups for one bitch to cope with and cannot be bothered to help the bitch feed the extra pups. Yes I am a breeder and work my dogs but any culling to me is abhorant.

I learned the hard way I got lax with the immediate down on Vale when she started to defy my command as she just wanted to balance and balance and well balance I got discouraged as one handler on a 2 day course made us do 'lie down' 'here' around a pen and with Vale on a line as he said she didn't even know the basics although till a few months before she had a very good 'down' she just grew up and decided to take over! . She became bored so when he let her loose on sheep she took over. Vale then went to a friend whilst I went back to England - could only take 2 of my 3 dogs with me - and for 3 weeks she worked with him and he is very firm with his dogs and even has his young pups lieing down on the whistle. Well Vale came back here and she went immediate down and I've kept it up ever since and have put my authority into our training sessions - so we have both changed for the better and now we work as a team. By the way she improved so much with my friend that he took her to 2 trials in our class I and she came 3rd both times. And she has progreesed with me or should I say I progressed so much that we have a trial Sunday - class I!! By the way I tend to teach the 'down' on the sheep rather than off sheep except for very basic for obedience sake as told to do by Derek Scrimgeour

Eileen The ISDS in what was their then News Letters did name and shame. If you remember H.Gyn Jones was banned for some time from the ISDS and was re-instated a few years later. This was do with mis-representation of pedigrees etc. They have also banned others and if you ask they will tell you who. As to the French buying pups from the States and just going on the registration - well it does happen!! They think that an ISDS pedigree will give them the trial champion they seek and this goes for ABCA registration also. Most DO NOT speak any English/American or very little and have no idea where to look when looking for a good working pup from an honest breeder. Maybe each registry/country should have a list they could send out of honest breeders for foreigners to contact. If someone contacted me here in France for a breeder then I could without any doubt give them a handful of very good honest breeders and also those not to buy from. Every country also has different legal rules. Here we have to give a bill of sale stating that the dog is legally identified ( tatoued or micro-chipped)and has its first vaccination and has been checked by the vendors vet before the sale and is in good health or a full male if appropriate. The bill of sale is valid 6 months and if any inherited diseases emerge then the vendor is held resposible. Does this apply in the States? So far here we do not have Border Collie puppy millers, no really bad breeders that could be struck off for mis-conduct (yet!) and we do not have a show fraternity However handlers are looking more and more out of France to buy their working pups as our gene pool is relatively small so a list of honest breeders would be helpful as some mistakes have been imported and at a very hig cost I do try to tell them not to buy from a website of a breeder but some of these websites are the only way they can see the furture produce and sadly they do not realise that some of these breeders may be dishonest or bogus.

Jodie All breeders like this have to do is find another outlet for their pups and that can be overseas. It dioesn't matter whether this type of breeder trials ( only interested in the importing of working dogs here) as here in France where hardly any handlers speak English and some who can do not fully understand what it entails to import a pup or some wouldn't be asking me what to do!!! They read an advert say on the internet for a registered pup - the name of the registry may mean nothing to them as we do not have multiple registries here - then they are sent a pedigree which on paper looks good then buy the pup as cheaply as possible. The French on the whole do not pay big money for their pups either from England or the States ( its not in their nature plus they do not have enough knowledge either - not all but I'm talking about the majority). They see in the pedigree maybe ISDS dogs and think that it makes the pup legit. They are promised the papers will be sent on and given a story of why they do not come with the pup. They do not fully understand the language and neither do they know the registration system for the US so they believe what they are told then when no papers arrive they have no come back as they have no idea of who to contact. This has happened and thats why I was asked to find out ALL procedures for registering a pup in the US and have never really had any full answers from any of the registries so these type of breeders no matter if they trial etc can sell their pups abroad and have. They just have to advertise on the internet or have a website as this breeder does and look authentic even if they are not. If no one is told over seas how do future buyers know if this type of breeder is authentic or just a puppymiller?. Who do they contact to do their homework to find the right and honest breeders?.

I do not know where they get their genetic information on HD as the research is on going and no specific genes have been found yet as to enable a DNA test. Here in France research started about 2 years ago and so far they have checked 100's of genes and none have been found to be the cause of HD yet. There is a report in every News Letter we have about the research and where its reached. They (the French) have also so they say found PRA linked to the X chromozone in the Border Collie here and are in the middle of their research to find the gene(s) responsible to create a DNA test. This type of PRA has only been found in Huskey's up to date so am intrigued to find out what they come up with. The IBCA doesn't mention this PRA at all though research has been going on in the States also I gather

I normally wouldn't get involved with any sort of dog politics but feel a need to reply to Jodie I think its normal that as you call us 'over seas' people wanting to know more about a breeder and why they were suspended as there are now a lot of Border Collies exported to Europe from the States and we do not want to import those without registration papers nor with suspect registration papers either I am contacted on a regular basis from French handlers importing dogs from both the UK and the States and the question I am asked is ' Is that dog oficially registered?' This I try and find out by contacting the breeder - have tried on a few occassions to contact the ABCA without success. I think these future buyers of working Border Collie dogs or pups have a right to know who to buy from and who not and why especially if someone has been suspended from the main registry in the US ( and it seems only one for now). The ABCA also must be upstanding and honest as they are now affiliate to the ISDS who would not put up with breeders who are dishonest and would name and shame as they have in the past. I for one would hesitate to recommend any breeder with the ABCA if they canniot guarentee that any pup or dog registered with them is legitimate. I have had one call from a handler who brought a pup from the States and was told the papers would be following and so far nearly a year on they haven't arrived and they can no longer get intouch with the breeder. So please give those over seas some consideration to the fact they do need to know as now the Border Collie is so widely exported and imported ALL over the world so it is not just an inhouse problem these days

Heres another thought that others have found helpful with a dyplasic dog swimming helped my friends dog to muscle up and as there was no stress put on the hip she could swim for quite a time each day - they went swimming in their local lake and river. It worked and this dog is now 15 yrs old and hasn't limped once or shown signs of pain etc since she went swimming and isn't on any meds. By the way HD is known not to be heredity but the predisposition for it is. In other words a litter can be predisposed to the disease but maybe only one pup may actually have HD as this pup may have been brought up on a too high protein diet or allowed to play on a slippy surface etc. Also if it was 100% hereditary then both hips would be affected and not just one as in most cases ( not all I know) - bilateral and not unilateral

I tried the collar on one of my dogs and she soon learnt to out bark the collar so after a couple of weeks it didn't work then the battery ran out quick and they are expensive. Never had a problem with the canisters but they are expensive and small too. Even tried a bark buster where a machine emits a sound we cannot hear but the dog can and that didn't work either.!!! Sadly she's now not with us and the place is so quiet as my other 3 do not bark unless someone comes to the house Andrea & Megan, Thyme et Vale - Bye and Away working Border Collies