Katelynn & Gang

So I have a friend who owns a Border Collie. She believes the dog to be working bred, I'd consider the dog sport bred. The dog is younger, a bit stir crazy and isn't as sound as she should be. We've had chats about the breed, show bred vs. working bred vs. sport bred. We've talked breeders and health testing, everything under the sun. Shes been to these Boards and has read. Sadly, her opinion on working dogs isn't what I'd think and the ideals shes gotten from this Board isn't want I'd want. First, she is a firm believe that all working dogs are bred without off switchs. I personally live at home with four working bred Border Collies and three other random mutts. They aren't crazy dogs. They sleep in their crates on their own accord or in the bay window and chew on a bone here and there. They go outside a few times a day, really just enough to go potty. Their "switch" is always off unless I pull out a ball or bring a few sheep in the living room (haha). My dogs sit in the car for hours with me, going places, going to work, just for a drive or to a frineds. People walk past my car, stop and say hi and my dogs merely look up to say hello and carry on with their naps. Second, she is positive all farmers and ranchers shoot their dogs who aren't good enough and can no longer work for whatever reason. I am still dumbstruck by this, as to me, a sheep farm isn't a sheep farm without a retired ole' dog laying on the porch. I know in this world, we sometimes retire dogs to Novice handlers to learn from or too homes less demanding. I still haven't heard of anyone I'd consider a good breeder (someone breeding for and testing their dogs ability) who takes their less then good dogs out back. Third. Her mind is made up that working breeders do not test their dogs for health problems. I've only ever owned one breeding dog and she was CERF'd, OFA'd and DNA test. Sure, not for this TNS and CL but that is besides the point. So, for the first point of view. I think a lot of people get the wrong idea about this amazing breed because a lot of the dog fancy believes that dogs who are sport bred are working bred and that is some of, if not the only hands on they ever get with what they would consider a real working bred dog. Second, I believe the farmers and ranchers shoot dogs because they aren't good enough is the dog fancys thing. Its something they always bring up. Farmers and ranchers who shoot dogs aren't in it for the dogs or the breed, they are in it for their bussiness which is rasing livestock, not dogs. Good working breeders are in for the dogs. Most of us have the same views on abuse and neglect, must of us would throw punchs over a dog I believe. Third. I believe most people breed to keep the ability in this breed are testing their dogs for the normal, hips and eyes. Some even more then that. Maybe because none of us really want to send our dogs results to the Border Collie Health page to be posted along side dogs whose breedings we don't agree with (I know that is why my dogs results aren't up there). But I have been told this view stems from this Board. Now, I know there is a lot of "fancy" thinking and doing behind a lot of these views. So I am interested in what people here think and know. What breeders here do with dogs when they don't work out as planned, what they do with retired dogs who are to old to work and what everyone tests for and what they don't test for and why. FYI. I did not make this post to bash the thinking of this person, I find her to be a very good friend who I respect greatly. I just was shocked as to her interpretation of this Board and its community. Katelynn

Is he still on puppy food? Sorry to hear about the news. OCD and CHD suck.

I like the brat of the litter. My two favorite dogs (working wise and just in general any sort of working/training) are my two hardest. I like dogs that push me as much as I push them and then some. Not that I do much of working dogs these days.

I guess you just missed reading the second half of my post?

The fluff, yes. There are traits such as the coat which are to each their own but excessive coat like that in the show ring is not desirable. These dogs have to have coats that are low maintenance. My dogs come in, covered/soaked/drenched in a muddy pudding and after drying, they are clean again. There just isn't enough time in life to have to keep washing and bathing a dog that was suppose to be bred for work and should maintain a clean coat naturally. This isn't even thinking of them getting brush stuck in their coats and have to groom that out. There are some rougher coats in the working lines but usually they are anywhere near that of the show bred dogs. I have only ever bred my female to rough coated males because I was/am very much in love with the dogs themselves. I did however keep only smooth coated puppies. The litters were bred for working, each puppy had a equal chance at being the best in the litter, so I could choose which ever one struck my fancy. For the bulbous forehead, foreheads like those seen in the show ring are not often seen on a trail field. Considering the numbers of dogs in Open and working on farms without the bulbous foreheads and the numbers with . . . . .

No, really it is not hypocritical for a working breeder/handler (most are both) to make a negative comment on a dogs appearance. Especially when a certain "type" proves repeatedly useless or less then desirable for the purpose of which the breed was/is (and should only be) created for. Katelynn

I think its great. I wish they all hated the working bred dog so much that they'd close their stud book. I think me and my dogs have no feelings because none of us could care less what anyone says about any of us. hahaha

I love when people give dogs people emotions. Their dogs, really. They have emotion, I know, I do rescue and I see it in every pull BUT they do not have emotion like people. My dogs don't sit and listen to my calls or read my emails to see what I am saying about them. They do not understand death, money, beauty or regret like we do. That is why dogs are so beautiful and when we take that away from them to start giving them human emotions we do them a great dishonor.

If you can get your vet to call in some Tamiflu for him, it works wounders. Being a adult, Freedom would need the pill form. Katelynn

I am guessing the owner of the dog does agility, tracking or obedience with her other dogs and wanted to do the same with this new dog, reasoning for the ILP. It seems most people do not ILP their dogs to do their "herding" in the AKC but for the other "sports" they offer. She could contact the BCSA and see if they can do something about it. I think I remember reading that they were reviewing a rejected dog's ILP and moved to pass it in their minutes but I'm not sure. Do they need photos to give full registration to ISDS or ABCA dogs? And do they deny those dogs on appearance alone as well or do they get a free pass because they are bringing in new and higher registration with their offspring? Katelynn

Karrin, I believe you took my reply as offensive? It wasn't meant to be. I am positive that Viki knows Border Collies should work sheep which is why my reply was meant jokingly. I said I believe its all Border Collie which is based only on the dogs keen expression and stance. And yes, Kelpie's work sheep and I am very aware of that. Did you know it is rumor that Kelpie breed found its name because of a smooth coated black and tan Border Collie bitch which was exported from the UK to Australia named 'Kelpie?' There are very few, if any, breeds in existence, other then the Border Collie and Kelpie, which I would consider capable of the sheep work I imply when talking work. Katelynn

I dunno, does he work sheep? All Border Collie.

I love how even the shelter knows enough to call it a mill but the media is stupid.

Here they are. Look at their condition. Fucker. http://www.petfinder.com/shelterSearch/she...iew=1&sort=

They are showing up more and more. I always have a little fit when I see one plastered somewhere. I have 6 personal dogs and three fosters, two of which that are puppies. They all eat in the kitchen, side by side. Its a fast learning experince. New dogs come in, they have to wait their turn for their bowls or they get growled at by the others and whichever lucky early bird is feeding. Once they learn the routine and have it down, I do purposely stick my hand in their bowls. I've yet to have one dog that wouldn't tolerate it or that didn't learn to. When I place my fosters, I like to know that I am placing a safe dog. I don't care if they growl at others trying to eat their food but they better not act on it and I never put them in a place where they need to. I do care if they growl at people though and its something I think all dogs must learn to tolerate without a fuss. Katelynn

I've seen many of this girls breedings. A girl in 4H that I competed with, her mother bought one for her and the dog was a fail. She stopped showing in 4H and lost interest in competing all together. The dog is a huge nut case, attacks other dogs, bit and about took my face off at just 8 weeks old. I'd have put the dog to sleep to say the least. And she did have a puppy that went into Paws With a Cause but it failed, was spayed and then placed with another 4Her. I can remember the first time I saw it, it was under a table at a meeting and still very young, growling. I'd coment on more dogs I've seen but I've gotta cut this sort, as I am walking out the door but just watched the video and it pissed me off. Katelynn

Wonder if there is any kind of profit after what it costs to responsibly breed and take care of a litter? Katelynn

http://www.doublejtraining.com/betsypedigree.htm Sires side.

I just wanted to reply to this because I think its very important for people to know. ' I just had a foster come down the Pravo. We caught it within the first 24 hours. I had 7 puppies exposed, some that had been vaccinated 4 weeks ago, some a week before and two 4 days before the outbreak. Everything in the house was bleached, everyone is being crated and really, we are just waiting now. When I got home from leaving my foster at the EV, I had emails and voice mails telling me it was urgent that I got all the dogs on Tamiflu (which is what they are treating the Swine Flu with) and that I needed to get Tamiflu to the dog in the EV ASAP. I had a vet calling me in a prescription at 11 pm, two adopters on the phone worried sick (I adopted two puppies out that day) and a crying boyfriend. So out we went to the 24hr pharmacy to get this said miracle worker and back across the state a few more times. We finally made it home at 5am the following day and I had left the house at 9am the day before to finish a few adoptions and pick up a two new fosters. I got Taniflu to everyone, including the dog in the EV where there were no questions asked to hesitation in giving the sick pup the medication. I've been told repeatedly now that Tamiflu does not cure Pravo, that it only treats the symptoms. After less then 24 hours of my sick foster (who was given a 50% chance of living) being in the EV, he was released. All my puppies, including the two that are only just now 7 weeks old, who had their vaccine less the 4 days before coming here, are just fine 8 days later and are still not showing any symptoms. In the many emails I've received, there have been many rescuers who claim that Tamiflu has saved everyone puppy they've seen come in with Pravo from the time they've found its use and started using it. The treat puppies with full blown Pravo and treat puppies who've been exposed. The dogs treatment in the EV was estimated to be anywhere from $600-1,500. Thanks to the Tamiflu and a few experienced kind people, he was out of there in no time and the rescue ended up only paying a $400 vet bill for him. Is this why vets don't recommend Tamiflu, because they are losing money? I do not know but I find it all questionable now. I asked if there was anything I could give my pups at home to prevent it, I was told no that they'd all have to come in to be treated. Yet, I now know that the measurements for Tamiflu is in their vet books and that it is said there just hasn't been any real study to see what it actually does and doesn't do for Pravo puppies (why not?). I just wanted to toss this out here, in hopes that it may very well save someone some money and a puppy's life down the road. Just keep Tamiflu in mind, rather you think Pravo will ever affect you or not. It is always good to know. Katelynn

A dog is only has good as its puppies when it comes to registration and breeding. If a Open dog were ineligible for ABCA registration because of earning a Championship and its owner/handler knew that the dog could reproduce itself equally or better, then they'd keep doing what they are doing with the dog and later breed it. Its puppies would then have to do the same, prove their Sire/Dam could reproduce equally or better puppies then itself and those puppies would be eligible for ROMing if they were up to par. We aren't losing anything, just getting our point across that showing these unique dogs should no be shown in the breed ring. Dogs that lose their registration can get back into our gene pool through their puppies if they wish BUT they must prove themselves first. Katelynn

So I know a lot of us have dogs, probably 3 or more. I for one own three and my mother owns three. I've only recently just moved out over the last two or so years, leaving my dogs with her and taking them on and off when I can. Together, we have two 11 years old, a seven year old, two that are about five and a two year old. All six of these dogs have been through obedience and are well behaved. Four of the six do or have worked livestock in their lives. These dogs do everything or have; agility, flyball, rally, obedience, showmanship (4H) and as just stated for the four, work livestock. You can just walk into my mothers living room and see that there are trophies galore that both I and my sister have won with five out of the six dogs (one never did 4H). To add to our six, my mom usually has at least one rescue on and off. I'm always getting dogs dropped on my door step, so I usually have one to three fosters that live with me (not her) but we do go visit her. We were just recently (last week) notified that we are in violation of our cities limit on dogs, dogs that we've owned for years at the same house (all six dogs have lived their whole lives at this residents). We didn't know there was a limit until we received this in the mail with a request that we remove three of the six dogs. We have also never had any violations prior to this, no noise complains (one did come with the limit violation, of coarse), no dog bites, not a thing. I am just wondering if anyone else has had this happen and what they did. I have now heard of people battling with the city to keep their dogs but I am wondering if anyone has done it personally. Has anyone ever won this sort of battle? I by far am not getting rid of any of the dogs, none of them are in danger unless I suddenly have to move home, in which case I'd be calling my lawyer. They have all been there for five or more years (besides the two year old) and have always been licenses with the county with the same address without question or hesitation. I just do not see how they can just now say we are in violation when we were obviously five and two years ago and no one said a thing to us about dog limits as we registered with the county. Thanks. Katelynn

I got this nifty thing called a boyfriend. It sits in the car, keeps it running and lets the dogs enjoy the AC while I do whatever I need or want. haha. Doesn't cost much either, a little food, a little love, some sharp corrects and hes set. They do need to be taken through obedience school once or twice though, sometimes with a few follow ups. Not to bad. Katelynn :D

No pun indented.

Dead on.

I job. Meaning the dogs worth wont run out once its done being a cute puppy, after the kids lose interest or when it destroys the living room furniture. Most people think you should have the right to just breed whatever you want. Sure, we all have that right to choose the bad over the good or the good over the bad. We can all breed whatever we want and we all also have the right to not care about the end product and what life it may or may not live. The dogs we breed aren't so lucky. They don't have a right to be someones cherished pet, they don't have the right to be someones working partner, they don't have the right to be part of the family, they don't have the right to be feed everyday, they don't have the right to say they don't want puppies, they don't have the right to say they want to live in a warm house, they don't have the right to say the car is to hot to wait in while you go shopping, they don't have the right to not be tortured by kids, they don't have the right to not fight when tossed in a pit, they just don't have rights. Some are lucky though, some breeders, when breeding, give their dogs these rights through contracts. Luckier for some select few, their breeders breed with a purpose in mind that will give the dog value higher then other just pet dogs. For those not so lucky, they end up in puppy mills or chained in back yards. Or in shelters till they died. Or in pits to be used as bait. For those not so lucky, sometimes, luck comes their way and rescues give them rights through their contracts. Saddest part is, the majority never make it out, never get rights and are never worth a damn thing because all they can offer is love, companionship, another mouth to feed and another body to be cared for. This is "companionship" at its best, in this economy. Dogs need to be breed with a purpose. Breeders need to take greater care in what they are and aren't bringing into this world. They need to make sure dogs are being spayed and neutered. Its simple. Katelynn