CoRayBee

Originally posted by Shewster: Is there any other bashing out there before I reply, I mean, let's hear it. That's what you love to do, isn't it? Oh, for the love of........ How about not resorting to the name-calling and petty accusations? This board is here for border collie advocates in general, and working border collie advocates in particular. This should be pretty obvious even to the first time poster. (Hell, if I can get that then anyone can!) Training/working/loving mixed breeds and AKC border collies IN ITSELF should be praised. By all means, if you have a dog then do something with it! However, breeding border collies for anything other than the ability to work stock should not. I fail utterly to understand just what about Eileen's introduction can be considered "bashing." Someone has to step up and say what needs to be said in order to save the WORKING border collie, and thankfully there are a lot of brave types around here who are ready to do just that. If there was no "Border Collie Police," as you SO delightfully called them, then what do you think would happen to the true border collie? Don't worry, I am not expecting an answer. If I wanted to be entertained by people who like to pick fights I'd be watching Jerry Springer.

Keep in mind that there are two types of mange mites- demodex and sarcoptic (scabies.) If I can recall from my vet tech days (waaaay back) scabies is more contagious and tougher to eradicate, although my memory is not exactly stellar. Does the Revolution treat both? That would be a handy thing to have, seeing as how the treatment of choice for most vets is one thing that probably shouldn't be used on border collies (Ivermectin.)

SoloRiver's claim that a border collie is a way of life is right on the mark. They are just not like any other breed, therefore you can't really expect to raise/keep them like any other breed. Congratulations on doing your homework- so to speak, lol- but I would take everyone's advice to heart with regards to conformation shows, school, etc. I'm going to stick my nose in and give my vote for Shelties. They are active, smart, and a lot of fun. They are beautiful dogs without the little dog stigma (they're tougher than they look and have tons of attitude)- and you generally won't have to worry about coming home to a house full of shredded furniture and slobber all over your mail. The only drawback (bark) is their (bark) reputation (bark) for making (bark) a bit (bark) of noise (bark) now and (bark) then. But in my 20+ years of Sheltie owner experience the only real nuisance is my parent's most recent one, and I can forgive her because she was a rescue and never had much in the way of stimulation or education.

Rebecca, I never even thought about milk thistle & vitamins, thank you for the suggestion. Any thoughts on the correct amount? There's no point in asking the vet- nice guy though he is, he's also TOTALLY allopathic. We have a "talk" about vaccinations every time I go in (as in I don't vaccinate any more but he thinks I should.) Donna, Yes you can ask if she was fasted (lol) and no, she wasn't. She gets fed once a day around 7 pm (kibble, not raw, if it makes any difference.) Thanks to both of you

...not the edible kind... I am hoping that someone on this board might have experienced this sort of thing before, because I'm stumped. I had my girl (8 years old) in to my vet to get some lumps inspected. As I suspected they are just little lipomas so we made a date to have them excised. Because of her age the vet suggested we do prelim bloodwork before her general anaesthetic. I didn't really want to but agreed- after all, he's the vet- and as it turns out it's a good thing I did. Everything came back normaler than normal except for Barra's liver enzyme count, which was waaaay high. Because she is a) not the sort of dog to get into garbage; in such good shape; and c) totally asymptomatic the vet thinks it is maybe the result of inflammation due to some sort of trauma (hit in the gut, landed wrong after jumping, etc.) I would very much like to believe it's that simple but of course the first thing I do is start to panic (ultrasounds, biopsies, etc, $$$- not to mention the possibility of actually losing my dog!!!) My question to all is this- has anyone experienced this sort of thing before? I suppose it would be not unrealistic to think that injuries could happen at any time but particularly to a working dog that loves to play hard at home (wrestle, tug of war, etc.) She is on meds for 10 days to bring down any inflammation and then we will recheck. In the meantime any advice would be most appreciated.

Originally posted by narcodog: I have seen alot of BCs that certainly have the drive for Schutzund but not necessarily the size. Fiona certainly has the drive for it. Fiona does not do any bite work and I will not train her for it but only because of her size. 36lbs and fine boned, she would definitely get hurt too easily. My girl was 35lbs when she was trialing. As far as getting hurt, it is the decoy's job to see that the dog does not get injured. There are proper ways to absorb a dog coming at you for a bite, and the batons used are strictly for cinema as opposed to causing any pain. Injuries will happen, of course, but the only ones in our club who got injured were the ones IN the bite suits! Oh, the beautiful bruises.... One of the things I would concentrate on (besides confidence) is building neck and jaw strength. Full mouth grips are HIGHLY desirable in Schutzhund. ...and I like "hinky."

Originally posted by Shin Okami: It's the spitzes that made me look at alternative breeds for protection work in the first place. If they had the spirit for it (if not the size, bite, etc.) Hah! Who says you can't just pick you dog up and toss it at the helper instead? Neat story about alternate breeds- The last FR trial I was at was in Portland, Oregon. One entry was a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, 9 years old, belonging to a member of the host club. As it turns out, she had lost this particular dog many years ago and had given up hope long ago of ever getting it back, when it turned up shortly before the trial. She came out, went through the Brevet exercises, and this little dog was the highlight of the weekend. (Picture a 10 inch tall, 20 lb dog biting decoys in the crotch!!!) They didn't pass unfortunately but I don't think anyone really remembers that part. So...yay for alternate breeds. And Kristi- yay for you and your new kid!! Actually, I think one of the dogs I had heard of with SchH titles WAS a Keen Eye dog. A Teag daughter, I believe. You wouldn't happen to know where Adam (or his boss) trains, do you?

Originally posted by airbear: No input, just a question: How did you ever get sweet Barra to bite? hee hee hee....yeah, kind of tough to imagine. Believe me, Kristi, I get some wierd looks when I tell the people she is cuddled up to that she does bitework. She is just fine with the people she knows but she is also defensive and VERY protective of me and "her" house. I have no doubt that she would take matters into her own hands (paws?) if someone threatened me. It's happened before... You've hit it exactly, Shin, when you say it has to be a game. The dog must view the bitework as fun rather than life-or-death for it to be confident enough to handle the pressure. I like what you said about the protection-trained spitzes! It's true that some of the smaller breeds are also the most tenacious (it's a reeeeally good thing that Min Pins and Chihuahuas are not any bigger or the world would really be in trouble ) I am sure that the alternate breeds you mentioned can do protection work- there are Bulldogs and APBTs competing in Ring, anyway- but there's a reason that the fast, tough herding breeds (GSDs, Mals, Dutch Shepherds)excel at protection sports. They have the ideal mix of brains, courage, size, and willingness to work with a handler. That said, I am totally convinced that the 'right' border collie could compete in Schutzhund- like I've said, titled BCs are out there (there is apparently a SchH-titled BC in a club in Surrey, actually.) They have the brains and the drive, and if the proper foundation work is done they could have the strength and nerves as well.

Originally posted by Shin Okami: Is it just that people who own them rarely think about these sports, especially because of their reputation as having 'bad aggressive dogs'? Could be. It seems that there are a lot of stockdog folk who aren't too interested in protection sports- just as the majority of Ring people I know are not interested in sheepherding. THAT may be because they are mostly all Malinois owners but Mals can earn their own brand of herding titles, too. I think it's a case of "Jack-of-all-trades-but-master-of-none," meaning that if you decide to train your dog in a variety of sports you will not have enough time to truly specialize in one. Having a dog worthy of competing (and doing well) in any sport takes a healthy amount of time and energy (and in the case of protection sports, a fair bit of ca$h.) Barra is the first border collie I have owned, though, so I wanted to try a little bit of everything with her to see what she enjoyed most. Big surprise- herding and biting decoys. And yeah, I'm a Leerburg lurker! I could talk about this subject all darned day so I'd better stop now, lol. Keep that floor open to anyone else who might have some input into this subject...?

Hi there, Congrats on thinking outside the box My girl just retired from her French Ring career. To the best of my knowledge she is the only FR titled BC in Canada (even if it's only a Brevet-lol,) and one of 3 or 4 in the US. Please forgive me if this sounds like I'm boasting- I don't mean to. I'm just a proud mama IMO Schutzhund is the better way to go with a border collie. There are 3 disciplines under the 'Schutzhund' umbrella to occupy their ACTIVE minds (obedience, tracking, and protection.) Also, the pressure of the bitework in Ring is so intense at higher levels that if you do not have a dog with rock solid nerves and a jaw of steel you are not going to get too far. Much as I adore border collies (and as much as I am hooked on French Ring,) they are perhaps a little bit too nervy for this sort of pressure. This is not a flame against Schutzhund, please don't get me wrong. Ring bitework is pretty awesome to watch but Schutzhund seems to be a much more disciplined and well-rounded sport. There are SchH-titled border collies out there, and you don't have to search too hard to find them. That's what I love about this breed, and I have conversations with my GSD and Malinois-owning friends....border collies can do everything THEY can, plus they can herd livestock! Ok, maybe they don't bite as hard, but that's just details, man.

Sounds like you have a typical 6 month old border collie puppy- congratulations!...and my sympathy At this tender age, she is: a)old enough to start acting like a doggy teenager (question authority!,) and b)getting bored (hence the nipping and barking.) You have to find a way to let your dog know that coming to you is the absolute best thing she could ever want to do. Find out what motivates her (be it food or a toy) and always have it close at hand. Call her name, and as soon as you have her attention tell her what a GREAT dog she is and give her the reward. Alternately, she should not be made to be afraid to come to you. No matter how NUTS she drives you with the chasing routine you cannot show her you are upset with her. If she runs in one direction, instead of chasing her try running in the opposite direction while calling her name. Odds are she will want to follow you once you start to run, and once she catches up to you make a BIG deal about what a good dog she is. The kids have to learn not to chase as well- now it's a game to keep away from the humans. And if you are the slightest bit angry when you do eventually pin her, she is going to equate coming to you with punishment. A little game you could try to help with this is to have someone restrain her while you stand a short distance away with whatever drives her wild. Call her name, jump up and down, act like a raving fool, wave the ball/tug/food so she sees it, and when she is going totally squirrely with wanting to get to you have the other person let her go. When she gets to you, praise the heck out of her. For the lunging issue I'd be tempted to try a slip lead or martingale style collar that will tighten as she lunges. Cutting off an unsuspecting dog's air supply usually (usually!) is unpleasant enough that she may think twice the next time. Just don't leave it on when you're not around to supervise (just in case she gets it caught in something.) Alternatively you could put a harness on her (something she is not going to be able to either squirm out of or choke herself with.) Lastly, IMO 20 feet of running space is not enough for a border collie puppy. If your yard allows for it, I'd go down to the hardware store and pick up 30-40 feet of rope/chain/etc so you can let her run a little more properly during playtime while still being safely tied to something. Ok, I'm done! Hopefully you might actually get something useful out of my ever-so-humble rambling.

Hi Jessica, Unless I'm mistaken (and I'm sure any number of people will let me know) you can expose your puppy to stock any time you want, to see if the desire to work is there. You might want to hold off on any sheep work, though, until the pup is a bit bigger I agree with staying away from Suffolks- from my limited experience they are large and particularly stubborn. No use in subjecting a young dog to a group of ewes that outweigh it by a LOT and are more than willing to fight back! (And if you think Suffolk ewes are nasty, try winning a battle with a ram.) FYI, llamas make great livestock guardians too. I have actually known a few that DIDN'T spit at any human that passed by (lol) So....25 acres and you're still living at home. I don't suppose you're interested in any permanent guests...?

Well said, Seth. If you can't do the dog justice, don't get it in the first place. Just one thing...and I can't help my fat mouth here... "Labradoodle" is not a breed. Your dog may be an absolute dream but it is a Lab/Poodle mix. "Labradoodle" is a foo foo name dreamt up by savvy people who now get to charge $1200 for an unregisterable mixed-breed dog they claim is purebred because one parent is a pb Lab and one is a pb Poodle(or they do up here, anyway. ) No offence meant WHATSOEVER, it's just a peeve of mine.

Well said, Seth. If you can't do the dog justice, don't get it in the first place. Just one thing...and I can't help my fat mouth here... "Labradoodle" is not a breed. Your dog may be an absolute dream but it is a Lab/Poodle mix. "Labradoodle" is a foo foo name dreamt up by savvy people who now get to charge $1200 for an unregisterable mixed-breed dog they claim is purebred because one parent is a pb Lab and one is a pb Poodle(or they do up here, anyway. ) No offence meant WHATSOEVER, it's just a peeve of mine.

What a neat idea! Not only is someone celebrating the unregistered mix for a change, they are doing it for charity. Too sweet!

Casey, I'd suggest using the 'search' key in the upper right corner of the screen and type in something like 'diet.' You'll get a wealth of info. For the record... Ground Yellow Corn- cheap undigestable filler/allergen Dehulled Soybean Meal- cheap protein source/allergen Ground Wheat- allergen Wheat Middlings- the stuff they sweep up off the floor BHA- seriously scary chemical preservative that is a known carcinogen Corn Gluten Meal- see Ground Yellow Corn and add a 'yuck' Salt- something that a dog's body cannot process in large amounts, and can lead to kidney damage.

The problem with asking for brand recommendations is you can ask 10 people and get 10 different opinions on what is best. So....here's my opinion! 1) Avoid food that contains corn/wheat/soy. They are potential allergens, and corn in particular is very difficult to digest. Good grains include rice (preferably brown) and oats. 2) Stay far, far away from any food that contains any kind of 'byproducts.' Meat byproducts doesn't necessarily mean meat (there's a lot more to a chicken than meat- feathers, feet, etc.) Grain byproducts could very well mean the dust they scrape up off the floor. Better dog foods will have things like "chicken/lamb meal," "lamb meat," and "whole grain rice/oats" on their labels. 3) Avoid foods that are chemically preserved like the PLAGUE! Things like BHA/BHT and ethoxyquin are known carcinogens. Find a food that is preserved with vitamin E (tocopherols,) citric acid, and/or rosemary. My dog food of choice is Innova. I don't question any of the ingredients on its label. Other people I know have their pets on Chicken Soup brand and/or Solid Gold, which also have excellent reputations. Pretty basic list, but I've found it to be a good general list to follow. Maybe others on this board might offer up their expert knowledge!

Originally posted by luvmybc's: i was wondering if anybody has any helpful tips that you think i should know before i get out there and make a complete fool of myself Yup. It's called beer.

That's okay- any comments are better than none at all, in this case. Thanks for the endorsement for colloidal silver. I have to admit I've never heard of it (although I suppose that's a good thing because it means I've never had a need for it, right? ) What sort of uses does it have?

Hi to all, I was wondering if anyone has had to experience aural hematomas on their dogs before? A friend of mine has a 22 month GSD that just had surgery to treat his and while I realize it's not REALLY a border collie question per se, it is a doggy health question and she's not having much luck on her GSD web board. I thought I would try to help her out and ask on MY board of choice The main problem is that this dog is a bit of a bast**d when it comes to cleaning his ears at the best of times, and now one is sore. My friend is using a 'colloidal silver' spray (?)which seems to be helping (and keeps her fingers out of reach of his pearly whites.) Does anyone have any other suggestions re: treatment/pain relief/etc? She is a holistic-minded person but I think she'd be open to any sort of help. Thanks in advance.

I happen to know both of those dogs quite well. Their owners are responsible and knowledgeable, and the litter has real potential...if you're interested in serious working Mals. Most sane people aren't

Hi there, If the stories about chewed furniture and sleepless nights are any indication, it's pretty unusual for an otherwise healthy 3 year old border collie to feel fatigue after 45 minutes of exercise per day. My own girl just turned 8 and she still goes out for nearly an hour on most weekdays, with longer hikes on the weekends. What sort of shape was Scooby in before you two began your daily routine? Suddenly subjecting an unconditioned dog to 45 minutes of exercise per day could cause some joint and muscle discomfort. Maybe take a couple of days off and let your dog be your guide. If he seems content to rest then I'd let him rest, but if he is driving you nuts with nothing to do I'd say that's a pretty good indication that he's good to try again. Just MHO. I am in no way a hypochondriac but if either you or Scooby's mom notice the symptoms returning (or if they don't recede) it might be worthwhile to let your veterinarian know, if only to confirm that there's nothing wrong with him.