laurie etc

If you are sure that he doesn't need to relieve himself and he was happily crated at night until 3 days ago- ignore him. Be aware that it may escalate for a bit before it stops (an extinction burst often happens before a behavior diminishes) . At 12 weeks he may be starting to test the waters a bit to see what works to get your attention. He may have gotten "howling" to work inadvertantly a couple of times and that is all it takes with a Border Collie. JMO. Laurie

P.S - I know this might seem a silly Question, but hey! - Can i give the dogs a raw peice of meat or bone - Lamb shank or chicken wing for example - can i give it to them straight from the freezer frozen? Or should i wait until its thawed for 24 hours in the fridge first?

My dogs get frozen meaty bones quite often - it takes them longer to eat that way, and it is good for teeth cleaning. Laurie

Make sure you are cleaning the spots with an enzymatic cleaner specifically for pet urine; even on tile the smell can linger as a "calling card".

Pups at this age can get "over stimulated" when outside and playing takes priority over doing what they need to do. There also seems to be a time frame when the peeing isn't as urgent as it was at an earlier age, and they just "forget" to go - until they come back in and settle down. Some pups actually need to squat a few times to empty out. I put the "hurry up" (or get busy, or go potty) on command at a young age, and praise for doing it immediately upon going outside. Don't just assume that he is - go out with him and make sure he does it before he's allowed to play. And then again before he comes back in. Takes a little more time, but with pups this age, it is worth it.

Laurie

You always need to be aware of what the pup is learning, not just what you think you're teaching.

CLASSIC LINE, Bill! So true!

Click...With young pups that do this pants leg/ankle biting, I stop walking briefly, use a quick one finger sharp rap across the bridge of the nose, paired with a short "ARGH" noise. This doesn't really hurt, but usually startles the pup momentarily into letting go of the pants leg. As soon as he lets go I start walking again and encouragingly say "good pup" if he doesn't pursue the pants again. If he does, another quick rap and "argh" happens. Doesn't take long for pups to make the connection. In really tough cases, I've used the pick 'em up and time out from playing method. Laurie

I'd see what he's like, and call him what you think fits. I don't think there's anything wrong with changing a pup's name, but I woudn't change the name on a dog already competing unless I already had a dog, child or S.O. named the same thing. ( A friend got an imported dog named Jim, but that was also her husband's name, so she change the name to Finn). I bet Notch would take to a new name within days, and it's easy to change on paper, if you are going to send in an owner registration change anyways. My "Pod" came to me at 10 months with the ABCA name "Missy" (ugh! - apology to anyone with a dog named Missy, but it just didn't bode well with me.) My "Cooper" came with the name "Wiley" at 10 months. I think one of the fun things about owning dogs is being able to name them. Laurie

edited to add- Some foks say you should name 'em what you want 'em to become, and I've been told to steer clear of names like chase, grip, killer, slash, etc. (This coming from someone with a dog named "Danger", and his crazy sister "Risk", I also have "Able", "Gotta", "Nan" and new puppy "Tyko", a swedish name which means "bulls-eye").

First -check out Tom Lonsdale's "free to download" book "Work Wonders" - at www.rawmeatybones.com . Easy to ready, and a wealth of information. Secondly, if you read through all the recent posts, there are as many ways to feed raw as there are raw feeders, and quite a few links to good information listed. Basically, I'd start with one protein source, and add new ones ONLY after a successful week on each. I don't thing veggies are all that important, in the big scheme of things, but they aren't "fatal" either. (My dogs tend to munch on sheep droppings and grass occasionally, and I think they are probably getting enough vegetation that way.) I also feed some green beef tripe weekly, which contains some ingesta.

I'm feeding 10 Border Collies (age 3 months to 13 years)and a geriatric Golden Retriever. So I'm definitely all about value! Most of the Border Collies are working at some level except the puppy and the retired 13 year old; and their requirements vary depending on metabolism and energy expediture. My two boys tend to eat almost twice as much as the older girls, who are "easy keepers". The younger girls are somewhere in between.

Rather than sirloin (unless they're giving it away), I'd be looking at cheapers beef cuts, and making sure your dogs are getting edible bone as well as meat. Especially if you can get bulk items, you should be able to stay under $1 per pound. I'd stay away from large animal's long "weight bearing" bones, they are too hard to chew up, and can break teeth. Knuckle bones are OK. Many folks feed chicken quarters, frames or whole carcasses. I also like turkey necks (especially for puppies) and you may be able to get your butcher to order chicken and turkey in bulk for you. Meaty pork necks are another good and inexpensive choice, and can be ordered in bulk. Veal necks, lamb necks, any "less desireable" meat cuts are pretty inexpensive. Rabbit is usually pricey, but if you are involved in 4-H, you might know some meat raisers who would give you a good deal. If you have access to sheep, maybe you can buy a cull ewe and have it butchered (around here, we can get a a whole sheep carcass processed; bones organs and all, for about $60). Same with venison, if you know any hunters, they might be willing to give you the parts they won't eat, or that have been in the freezer too long. Dogs don't seem to mind "freezer burned" meat like people do. I like to feed large pieces that are at least partially frozen, to slow down the chewing process and help keep the teeth in good shape. Small pieces tend to be gulped instead of chewed.

Good Luck with your switch!

Laurie

You did nothing wrong except maybe feed difficult bones to a newbie dog. At their best, beef bones are difficult for most dogs to digest. A dog that is just beginning is not generally up to the challenge of dense bones. Don't feed beef bones until Riven has had some on the job training. The vomited bone bits are what's left after Riven's digestive system has done all it can do--what can't go out one way will come out the other; both exit strategies are more healthy than stagnant irritants.

 

If Riven refuses to eat chicken, I mean, after you've given her the choice of chicken or zip and she opts for zip, try a different meat. I forget--have you tried pork? Try pork. Doesn't have to have a bone in it for now; for now just concern yourself with meat acceptance.

Chris O

Good ideas - In my experience, it might be a good idea to give Riven a digestive enzyme capsule with her food for a while - Her stomach's pH is set up to digest kibble right now - and it may take a while for it to adjust to meat and bones. For some dogs it happens almost overnight, for some it takes longer. I find that some dogs switching to raw have a harder time than others. And yes, I do think there may be a "detox period" of vomiting and loose stools, which IMO may be related to the stomach pH and ability to digest a new type of food more than actual "toxicity" of the old food. Imagine going from a diet of Total Cereal 3 times a day to Steak and Chicken. How would your digestive system handle that?

Laurie

Thanks, everyone.

The Mantlos tattoo for NDR, and their email is tattoodogs@msn.com . They do keep their own records - so if the dog is tattooed on the inner thigh it would be worth a check with them, because not everybody follows up by registering with NDR. Another source to check is Tatoo-a-Pet - You can google their contact info - sorry, I don't have it readily available.

By the way, the Mantlo's will be at Keepstone Farm in Berryville VA on July 14...email me for more info if you want.

Laurie

I have Ian's book. Basically, those of you with numerous dogs- how do you do it. I am a scientist, so I am not good at just throwing things together

 

Thanks

Julie

Definitely recommend you download Tom Lonsdale's book "Work Wonders" it is free at www.rawmeatybones.com . I've been feeding raw for almost 12 years. My dogs (and there are 11 of 'em ranging in age from 3 months to almost 14 years) eat a variety of chicken backs/necks/frames, turkey necks, meaty pork necks, meaty veal necks, beef ribs, beef organs and hearts, green tripe, ground mutton, occasional Bravo blends, and then any reasonably priced cuts I find at the grocery store. They also get fresh meaty beef knuckles for recreation and salmon oil a few times a week. I keep EVO on hand for emergency "forgot to thaw anything out" nights when I get home late. Sometimes in Winter they even get a serving of cooked oatmeal. I try to keep everything I feed below $1 per pound (much lower if possible). - This is easier if you feed things that are not prime for human consumption, and buy in bulk. (And make friends with a butcher, or a custom meat processor.) I stay away from the weight bearing bones of anything - beef marrow bones, and chicken legs, as I worry about about broken teeth and I've seen them poop whole chicken wing and drumstick bones. I'm probably the opposite personality as you - I appreciate science, but I'm more of a "seat of your pants" feeder - I feel the variety I feed will balance the nutritional requirements over time. I don't stress about amounts or ingredients, I just "eyeball" and touch my dogs every few days to decide what they need. To me, raw feeding is more of an "art form" than a science. Laurie

I did figure out the name of the bitch in question, and looked her up on the http://db.kennel.dk/bcdb/dogs.php database. One of her dam's grandsires is listed as "L'Blue," but apparently nothing is known about his parentage. I also looked up "L'Bleu" (since that's the spelling used on the database Katelynn posted) on that database, and found no entry. I looked on Teun van den Dool's list of all the names of ISDS registered dogs, and there is no "L'Blue" or "L'Bleu" listed. On the database Katelynn posted (where the bitch's show placements are chronicled), her great-grandsire "L'Bleu" is listed with an "ALSH" (whatever that is) number rather than an ISDS number; ditto for "L'Blue" on the first database. So what reason have we for thinking that "L'Bleu/L'Blue" or his forebears are ISDS dogs? All the evidence available suggests that he was not.

OK - so once upon a time I took in a "rescue" from Belgium, a blue merle bitch that had been imported to show in conformation, but from "working lines" and registered with ISDS. She went back to the mysterious Blue, (her kennel name prefix is Maeglin, but that kennel used to be Mancunian). By the way, she is a nice worker, not at all "Barbie-ish". I placed her because she was a bit evil and really had it out for my other bitch, Pod. Here's the web page about "Blue, or "LBleu" or whatever - I think the confuson comes because the owner is Belgian, and isn't French spoken there? Anyways, click on this link, and then go to "kennel" and then to "how it went on" - you'll find the story of "Blue". Laurie

http://www.maeglin.be/bordercollie/english...dercollies.html

edited to say - I don't have her registration papers any longer. Go to thinking about this, and thought I should clarify. The bitch I had came from the same kennel, but looking at the website she was not "L'blue" progeny - even thought she was blue merle. Her merle came from another blue merle ISDS line that the breeder has.

Here is a list of where pet food is manufactured. I got it from one of the yahoo groups that I'm on. Hope it helps!

Can you give the list name or website that this came from please? I'd like to go there and read more. Laurie

Mercy, that's what poor Ben does. He just blithely ignores my demands for him to stop unless it makes a WHOLE LOT of sense. I've switched to just using "lie", which steadies him, then repeating it over and over until he grinds to a halt. Crude but it works here. And Ben will never accept that sometimes I really know better!

LOL - Ben and Pod must be soul mates! I switched to "Lie...lie... lie... LIE!" with her too - in as low and "gutteral" tone as I can make - and it does work better, but she still second guesses everything, especially at a distance. However, I will say that close-up work, penning, moving ewes and youngsters is her forte, she loves any kind of control work where she can finess the sheep into where they need to go. She does not have a grip on command, but she has a knack for pushing and then giving, (just enough to let the pressure off and to give the sheep a chance to respond the way they need to). I think she can read my mind when it comes to that sort of work, so I rarely need to say much to her other than a steadying word.

Cord's definitely a control freak. It's handy when holding a tricky bunch for chores. He's the first dog I've had that can hold ewes and very young lambs right together for tagging and vacs and whatnot. And he won't stop until he's checked every inch of the neighborhood for loose sheep, if there's a group missing.

That's nice - I do like my "control freaks" for the practical stuff - may not be pretty sometimes, but it's effective. And you never have to worry that they'll just decide to quit and go home when the going gets tough. Laurie

Novice disclaimer here - but...

Great advice Robin! I was thinking the same thing. Two of my "control freak" girls tend to starting that over flanking stuff when A: they are working a larger or slower group than they are used to; or B: they have a feeling that the group wants to spread out or disburse, so they feel a need to constantly "tuck the corners in". Using "there" (and a "lie down" to push them back as a last resort when they move too quickly or resisted "there") seems to work to get them to understand that I want them to stay steady behind the group and not worry so much about the "edges".

Becca- I tend to over use the “lie down” too – when in doubt yell “lie down” - to the point that my FHD Pod (First Herding Dog) often just tries to take matters into her own paws. She respects me, but I don’t think she’ll ever feel 100% confident that I know what the heck I’m doing when it comes to sheep.

Laurie

I have heard of people having some luck with adding a bit of pineapple juice to the dog food- it has enzymes in it similar to meat tenderizer, I believe, which break down the protein that might be making the dog's poop a desirable snack.

On a positive training note, I have one girl who does this - I think it is more commom in females, from their maternal instinct to clean up after their puppies. I turned the tables on this girl...she is ball/toy obsessed, so we play "show me the poop". I walk around with my poop scoop, and she grabs her ball and drops it near a pile of poop. If she "show's me the poop", I scoop it and then throw the ball. She thinks of this as a job, and she is very happy to take me to the poop piles in order to get her ball thrown - if she eats the poop, well, no ball game. She learned the game pretty quickly.

Laurie

I hope it wasn't the vaccines. Really, I just want it to go away, whatever it is. The poor thing is just miserable.

Afer reading over the saga of this pup, I'm wondering if it's possible that vaccinating, deworming and using Revolution all in the same week was enough to make her toxic. Poor girl - Hind sight's 20/20, but especially with her age and since she had such a rough start, I'm surprised the vet treated her with so many chemicals at once. I looked back at a couple earlier posts, and you said she was running a fever after her vet visit. Also, the thought occurs to me that her heritage is unknown, so that maybe the red merle part is actually Aussie, which might account for a bad reaction to the Revolution (if in deed you did use it on her) - that mdr1 gene mutation that collie breeds can have...

Anyways, I hope she gets better, Sounds like your regular vet is giving it a "wait and see" approach, so you might look into talking to a holistic vet who can help with some natural remedies to heal her little body. Laurie

In the anatomy class I am in we dissected Cow Hearts today. I had no idea they were so huge! Because we just got them at the grocery store we all figured why just throw them out? It is good meat. Another person in the class had their Dobe just switched to raw because of his coat (he looks SO much better now!) and decided just to let him have it. So I brought some home for Dazzle and the Dust Mops. Just wanted to make sure this is an OK thing to give to the puppers...

 

I have it cut into smaller pieces and in the freezer so I could just give her a little every day for awhile, if it is all safe and good!

Beef Heart's a good muscle meat to feed - as long as you didn't add any chemicals to it and it didn't sit out too long for the dissection. Just don't over do it if your dogs aren't used to raw meat. I've also used it for training treats by boiling it, then cutting into tiny pieces, and freezing in ziplock bags. Laurie

Could he have smacked his head on something? I think in humans, asymetric pupils is a sign of concussion... Laurie

I recently started my daughters' dogs, both around five years old, because they wanted to see how they would do on sheep. Neither will become full time stock workers, but they do get the chance to come out to train occasionally, and wanted to see if they could be trained enough to do some AHBA trialing. Both dogs are working bred, but have been agility dogs their whole lives. To make a long story short, they both took to the stock work like ducks to water, and the best part was that we didn't have to go through the crazy puppy "zoomy - slice'n'dice" stage, they already knew lie down, and "that'll do" (or a recall); they have some maturity and self control; and were much more thoughtful about the whole thing than the youngsters I've started. Because of the agility training, they also already knew how to cue off of body language, so pushing them out off the stock and changing directions was fairly easy.

If you have somewhere to do it, I think you should try Ling, you might be amazed!

Laurie

Okay, I have a quick question about USDAA titles. I have a dog who has his starters standard and jumpers titles and his AD. Having the AD means he can move up to Advanced in all classes. My question is this...If we manage to get his AAD and move up to Masters (HA!) without ever getting his starters or advanced snooker title, can he then get his masters snooker title with the normal 5 Qs in masters snooker? Does this make sense?

 

Thanks,

Olivia

check this out http://usdaa.com/binary/files/rules_ebook_2004_appf.pdf

You don't have to complete games titles in order to move up (just the requisite leg in each game, plus the requires number of standard legs), and once you are competing in Masters, it doesn't matter what titles/legs you got at a lower level. So yes, once you move up to Masters, you can just get the 5 master snooker legs to get that title. (At least that's my understanding of the rules.) Laurie

...Hypothesis: Deafness in Border Collies is associated with pigmentation patterns linked to the merle gene.

 

Animals: A total of 2597 Border Collies from the United Kingdom.

 

Methods: A retrospective study of Border Collies tested, during 1994–2002, by using brainstem auditory evoked responses.

Associations between deafness and phenotypic attributes were assessed by using generalized logistic regression.

 

...Results: The prevalence of CSD in puppies was estimated as 2.8%. The corresponding rates of unilateral and bilateral CSD

were 2.3 and 0.5%, respectively. Adjustment for clustering of hearing status by litter reduced the overall prevalence estimate to

1.6%. There was no association between CSD and sex (P 5 .2). Deaf Border Collies had higher rates of merle coat

pigmentation, blue iris pigment, and excess white on the head than normal hearing Border Collies (all P , .001).

I read through that study earlier, but what bothers me about it is that the study lumped merle, blue eyes and excessive white on the head into the same category for the results. I'm under the impression that the three traits are not necessarily related (my merle is non-white factored, with two brown eyes, very little white on her head, and hears just fine (BAER tested twice). My daughter's merle is a uni. He is highly white factored (from 2 white factored parents) and has 2 blue eyes. What made him a uni... the coat color, the white, the eye color, or the combination? His full brother is merle with one partial blue eye and has normal hearing. Like Rosanne, I've met more non-merle Uni's than merle Uni's; although currently in the agility world, it's sometimes hard to find a Border Collie who doesn't "go back to" a merle somewhere in the pedigree.

Laurie

I don't think its a very well written (or understandable article)... I think they fail to mention that it is Homozygous Merles (double merles) that can suffer from occular and auditory problems, not Heterozygous (regular merles with one normal parent and one merle parent). I'm pretty sure that this is not "news", but maybe in some other breeds like dachshunds, great danes, shelties and aussies, where the merle (or harlequin or dappled) color is more prevelent - determining whether an animal is homozygous is more of an issue - or whether an animal is a "cryptic merle". (?) And it would make sense that IF there is a similar gene in humans that causes deafness, you might want to know before "breeding". (hmmm....Are we talking genetic selection for humans here ?)

Laurie

Going to throw in another line of "opinion". I've had a couple of dogs with "IBS" that "outgrew" the problem. I'm not a vet, but my personal opinion, (and that of some vets I've talked to) is that some young dogs who have been loaded with worms or had intestinal damage due to medication as pups have such gut damage that it takes up to a year for them to get normal. It's like a self pertuating occurance, until it gets under control and the gut has time to repair itself - which can involved building a whole new mucosa (intestinal lining). My one BC boy that I got as a 7 month old had apparently never been de-wormed, he had littermates that got really sick, too, but they went to new homes sooner and got treated sooner. He was the last pup to go. My guy had regular nasty blow-out episodes, and was on and off of Metronidazole, until he was about 1.5 years old. Then, all of a sudden, I realized he was normal. He's almost 6 now, and still fine. So, I guess what I'm saying is that maybe your girl will come around, and you are worrying over something that will never happen. I would also explore feeding differently - do some internet research and I'll see if I can find some links for you, too. (Metronidazole is cheap and easy to come by, by the way.)

The other thing I'm thinking is that "Ball Drive"and her size might be suited to a flyball home, where someone is more likely to put up with a health issue and dote on the dog more than a "working drug dog" person would. I have a friend who worked for a bomb detection agency in the DC area. I can't imagine that anyone looking for "professional sniffing" dogs would want to take on a dog with IBS. Those dogs spend a lot of time waiting in crates, and alot of time in public places where an "accident" would be totally unaceptable, and seen as a liability or a human health hazzard.

I have nothing against placing a dog if you can find a suitable "forever" home. Like Rebecca said, we have to realize sometimes that we are not the "be all, end all" home for every dog we have. I'd worry that the stress of sending one away for training could kick the IBS into high gear; so if you still want to place her, maybe looking for a less "stressful" home would be more appropriate.

Just my 2 cents worth....

Laurie

Hope all you experienced shepherds get a kick out of this. Patty

I've always believed that you could construct or fix just about anything with baling twine, duct tape, double end snaps, and WD-40. Patty, your story reminds me of what my kids went through to get their rally stalls ready for a pony club inspection. Every sharp edge had to be removed, pounded or covered with a duct tape "band-aid". I always thought I'd rather take my chances with a sharp edge than risk a curious horse ingesting all those little pieces of duct tape. Laurie

I second (third?) the idea of using red meat and fish as well as poultry. Meaty pork, veal or lamb necks are usually fairly inexpensive, as well as other cuts you can find that aren't "prime" human food. Some grocery stores or meat markets will order cases for you at a better price that buying individually. Our local butcher has a large angus steer operation, and saves us lots of beef organs, hearts, tongues and large meaty knuckle bones that the dogs just love - they eat off the meat, cartilage, fat, and gnaw on the bones for days afterwards. He cuts so much, that he ends up sending most to the renderers if dog feeders don't buy it from him. Laurie

I've been giving her goats milk, Puppy food and tums per the vet. I've also been giving her a dog vitamin and free choice canidae dry food Plus meat once a day.

 

I guess the issue with the pushing people around for their food is more of a bad guest type behavior. My guys are reasonably submissive to her and she is taking advantage of it. I swear when she gets mad it's like she grows to the size of a black bear.lol Outside she seems to have nice pack behavior with them they all sit together and watch the neighborhood.

Sounds like she is getting plenty to eat, but I would wager that she is also "maternally-hormonally protective" - normal for a bitch to be food and resource protective when she has a litter to raise. Your other guys probably intuitively recognize this, and are behaving appropriately. When I've had a litter, my bitches do not go out to "socialize" with my other dogs, especially the first couple weeks. I'd let her be with the litter and you, and not push the doggy socialization issue until the puppies' eyes are open and they are running around - at about 4 weeks she'll be much happier to have to adult dog company and get a break from the pyhrannas. JMO. Laurie