laurie etc

I have mixed emotions about "crate traiining" a pup so young, especially in Winter. Unless you are planning to be with her every moment, including night time, I would guess you WILL have accidents in the crate. Her bladder is just not mature enough to hold it for very long. I wouldn't actually start limiting her crate space until she is at least 8 weeks. Until then, plan on having a larger space for her with newspapers on one side that she can "use" if she has to, and her crate on the other side that she can sleep in. An exercise pen is ideal for this, but I've used a bathroom with a baby gate, too. When you can't be there to take her out to potty at least every 1-2 hours, let her have run of the large space. IMO, in the long run, this will make crate training/house breaking easier and not let her get the idea that it's OK to soil the crate. Also, she still REALLY needs doggie socialization, so seek out some healthy/pup-friendly adult dogs and pups for play dates. Taking a pup away from all canine contact at her age is a good way to get a "socially incorrect" dog later on, but even occasional nice dog interactions now will benefit her in the long run. Make sure that whatever dogs she gets to meet are used to dealing with puppies; and are healthy as well, since she's probably not been vaccinated yet, and her maternal antibodies are close to waning (usually 9-12 weeks, but could be earlier). I personally don't see any benefit to vaccinating before 9 weeks, but have never had a problem with my pups being introduced to other "safe" dogs at an early age. Laurie

Good post - Mine get a lot of their RMB's frozen, as well. Both from "laziness" and it keeps them chewing and happy longer. I also agree that the chewing sets the digestive system up better. If I were feeding a prepared food like that (and occasionally I feed Bravo ground), I'd slice it and feed it semi-frozen, as well. I'd probably offer a smallish frozen RMB (like a turkey, pork or veal neck) along with the ground food. Laurie

Mine do- if they know what's good for them... In my household "girls rule, boys drool!" Apparently, the girls make up the rules, too! My most dominant boy is reluctantly forced to be "the rabbit" and the girls all line up behind him. The less dominant boys just try hard to stay out of trouble somewhere on the fringes, but aren't permitted to "work" the dominant boy or the girls. Laurie

Thanks Kathy and Liz! I'm not sure of his exact routine, but I know he gets lots of one-on-one training, leash walking and casual play time, too. I think my friend is on the right track - with the redirection activities, and crating with a chew bone when she can't be there to watch him. In searching through sheepdog-l and a few other sources, it seems this commonly starts around 6 -8 months, when a Border Collie pup might "turn on" to herding stock, and maybe this behavior is a redirection of that energy. Another person on sheepdog-l mentioned some research that had shown a correlation between OC behavior and the rabies vaccine. So, lots of things for my friend to check into and think about. Maybe she should consult a holistic vet if she has recently rabies vaccinated him, and I'll tell her about the Tufts Petfax. Laurie

Julie - Thanks, I agree with what you're saying and appreciate the response. My friend is in NYC, so maybe there's a behaviorist in her area who can work with her. Anyone know one to recommend? Laurie

I did suggest that to her, but I thought maybe some folks here might have some personal insight into it. I don't think it is an uncommon problem in Border Collies, since when I google "shadow chasing" I come up with a slew of Border Collie related sites. Interestingly, there are also a lot of you tube videos of human infants and small children chasing shadows...hmmm...I guess humans grow out of it; but it's interesting that we find it "normal" in developing humans, but a problem behavior in dogs. I don't think my friend wants to medicate this pup, but she wants to find a way to curb the behavior so that he can be a useful dog, and chasing shadows doesn't take over his life. (And don't worry, he's slated to be neutered when his growth plated close.) I heard once that there's a very prominent USBCHA finals dog who chases shadows in his spare time. If that's true, then maybe it's not really a big deal (since obviously at least THAT Border Collie can separate "work" from this mindless pastime). Laurie

It started about 2 months ago - basically, he noticed his own shadow (I think) and went after it. He was never reinforced for this, as in "isn't that cute?!". My friend recognized it as a behavior she didn't want to perpetuate, so has been managing the pup to avoid the shadow issues (keeping him on leash when there are shadows, redirecting him to other activities if he looks at them, crating when he can't be watched so he doesn't "find" shadows on his own). The pup does not live near me, so I haven't actually seen him doing it, but apparently it is getting worse and he is looking for shadows more and more. Seems to be a self gratification kind of thing, you know, like how some dogs amuse themselves by playing with/tossing toys in the air. He naturally has a good off button, and relaxes readily, but if he's loose he now wants to go find a shadow to entertain himself. This wouldn't be so bad (I guess) except my friend says shadows are now starting to distract him when he is in "training mode" and this new development has her worried. Up until now, he has been very focused during training sessions (he is doing puppy level training for agility, obedience, disc dog - and will be learning to work sheep eventually). I don't think she is reading him wrong, but is pretty concerned about this becoming an OC behavior that goes out of control. She is aware of the SG methods, I'll suggest she look into reading that book if she hasn't already. One agility trainer she went to suggested she "put the shadow chasing on cue" (so that it would extinguish when not cued) but I have a feeling that this is not the kind of behavior that will work that way. Laurie

A friend's 8 month old Border Collie pup has started shadow chasing. This pup is a dream in every other way. Even though my friend has tried "redirection", crating, and keeping him on a leash to curtail it, his obsession is getting worse. It seems to escalate when he is excited/stimulated (not when he is bored), so she has been working on enforcing and rewarding him for "chilling out". He is working bred, and none of his close relatives exhibit this sort of OC behavior. He gets lots of exercise, play and daily mental training. He is not a "bored pup" left to his own devices, as seems to be the "norm" for dogs with this kind of behavior. Any advise is appreciated regarding things she can try to nip this in the bud, and/or links to recent data about this issue. I tried searching this forum and googling, but didn't come up with much. I usually try to think of positive ways to shape/modify behavior, but for something so self gratifying, I thought of using a water pistol or shaker can as an aversive. Any other ideas? Laurie

thinking back to my Golden Retriever days... I prefer a dog with a bit of a "toe out" as a youngster. (as long as it's not extreme, and he wasn't horrible as a little pup). At 10 months old, Marco's chest has not "dropped" yet, so when it does, you will be surprised at how his front legs seem to straighten. If he was "square" right now, he might end up "toed in and elbows out" as an adult. In Goldens, (and in Border Collies) , a slightly close front assembly with a bit larger ribcage usually lends to a better length of stride (more efficient, ground covering) and more freedom in the shoulder/scapula (makes for a better athlete overall). Think of a whippet versus a bulldog in movement. Somewhere in between would work for sporting and herding dogs, tending towards the whippet build. Laurie

Thank you. I've stayed out of the emotional discussion, but I think these guidelines are very good. Rescue is not "my life" but I like to help out where I can with pulling, evaluating, transport and/or fostering. I don't have time to troll the rescue boards, or call shelters; and I'm not affiliated with any specific rescue group. (Been there, done that...many moons ago.) My contact information is on this board, and I appreciate the dogs posted here being at least "known entities" who are actually in need of transport, fostering, or adoption - with a single rescue contact having taken the lead so that everyones' time and energy is not duplicated (and subsequently wasted). Laurie

Hmmm. Not really. While there ARE white factored merles, there are probably EXTREMELY few actual cryptic merles, and you'd have to be pretty blind (or ignorant) to confuse a white factored black and white BC with an actual merle. Besides, one of the parents of a "cryptic merle" would have to be a merle, so if you knew the pedigree, you would be able to avoid this whole issue. I think the problem comes more frequently in Shelties, where sable merles can be mistaken for sables because of the washed out merling in the tan coat. Sheltie breeders do lots of weird crossing, but they stay away from breeding sables to merles because of this. I do know some uni -deaf dogs from breeding white factored to white-factored merles; and also just crossing two highly white-factored or white-headed dogs, as well. It's a shame but it happens more frequently than people realize - most dogs learn to compensate fairly well, and owners never know unless they have the dogs BAER tested. Laurie

Well that 's a positive note that she thought about discouraging you...sort of... but apparently she would still take your money. Again, I'm glad you decided to come here to ask questions. I'm not normally one to get on here and sway someone from buying a pup - BUT... In another response - you quoted the breeder.. "The puppies get their first distemper shot done by a vet at 7 weeks. And I will get the Heart Guard from the vet also. Then you will need to get a distemper shot 3 times every two weeks and give heart guard once a month. Talk to your vet, because you will have different bugs living in Virgina Beach so he might need additional pertection. I own both parents and the daughters that are on the photo site. I've had mom for four years and dad for two. Their health is great." "Their health is great" is a sure sign that the breeder hasn't done ANY genetic testing whatsoever. Border Collies can have numerous problems such as hip dysplasia, CEA, other eye problems, deafness, epilepsy, immune disorders, overheating disorders. She doesn't test her dogs, and her dogs are not worked to test their soundness (and they aren't really old enough to even display most healthy issues that can occur later in life). Producing white puppies happens - but then repeating that cross is proof that the breeder is not concerned about or is not knowledgeable about the things that can go wrong. I would be BAER testing (hearing test) any pup that is overtly white around the head and ears. Deafness is an easy thing to miss, especially in an active puppy, and there are many undiagnosed cases with Border Collies. She does not even have a real handle on what puppy vaccines are needed, and how often. No vet, no matter the protocol, would recommend vaccinating puppies every 2 weeks. Laurie ETA -Julie posted the same time as me - about the same thing. Didn't mean to bombard you.

Thanks for coming on the boards for opinions! I certainly would not recommend anyone other than the most experienced dog person attempt to raise and train two littermates at the same time. And especially Border Collie litermates. And especially a first time Border Collie owner. Big Red Flag to me is that a breeder would sell two pups to a first time BC owner- AND looking at the puppy pictures, I'd put my money on the probability of this is a double merle breeding, or at best a breeding that should not have taken place - merle to highly white factored (or color-headed white)! Have you met the breeder and sire/dam in person, or is this an "internet deal"? Laurie

I totally agree with Julie here- especially if you don't 't have a contract in place or anything invested in this particular pup. I happen to own a blue merle, quite by accident, and wouldn't trade her for the world. But I'm extremely color blind when it comes to working ability, health, temperament and longevity; and breeders who are primarily breeding for "color" often are willing to overlook those most important things. Laurie

Just catching up with this thread - I think it's pretty obvious that this pup is NOT from a merle/merle breeding (4 solid pups/4 merle pups), but there can be birth defects in any litter - any color, and from what I've read, this kind of "walleye" defect might be more common with less pigmented (more white) dogs. Puppy eyes can appear a bit more widespread than adult eyes, but the pupils should be symmetrical. My daughter has an older double merle that has dysgenesis affected eyes. Even though she was a talented agility dog, she really can not see in bright sunlight, as she does not have the proper nerve connections that cause her pupils to constrict, and her pupils are not symmetric (like your merle pup). Unfortunately, I don't have a good picture of her eyes close up. She does fine in dim light, but has some of the related double merle internal issues (bladder and organ malformations) which have been problematic in her old age. Possibly this breeder isn't familiar with the need to have puppy eyes checked, but maybe you could educate her that an eye exam for BC pups between 6 and 12 weeks is the norm. The red merle pup could go on to live a totally normal life, but better to know up front if there is truly a handicap, or just a cosmetic oddity. Laurie

Ya know - I have the same issues with a couple of youngsters - one much worse than the other (she doesn't just wheee, she wheee's, then grips, then flips- kinda like a professional rodeo roper). I have struggled with the same thing- to remember to quickly direct the dog to the right thought and task rather than just concentrate on correcting/blocking for the wrong thought or action. Timing is everything, and the timing is hard! It's REALLY frickin' hard with a KEEN youngster!! Everything happens so fast sometimes. I know in my head that I need to be "relentless" in my insistence that the wrong thought NOT turn into the wrong action, but in "the heat of battle", I'm often way too slow in reading the dog, allowing the dog to regroup and choose the right action - I'm too busy being relentless. I think when that happens, my girl just thinks well, heck, I'll just run faster and try harder to beat the big nagging person in my way. By continuing to just "stop her" instead of a allowing her to come up with an alternative course of action that might be acceptable, she isn't really learning anything (except how fast she needs to go to beat me). This would explain why my instructor can work her just fine, and she doesn't usually even try the shenanigans with him. Hmmm. Anyways, thanks for posting. Good food for thought... Laurie

"...there is one best place to bury a dog. If you bury him in this spot, he will come to you when you call -- come to you over the grim, dim frontiers of death, and down the well-remembered path, and to your side again. And though you call a dozen living dogs to heel they shall not growl at him, nor resent his coming, for he belongs there. People may scoff at you, who see no lightest blade of grass bent by his footfall, who hear no whimper, people who may never really have had a dog. Smile at them, for you shall know something that is hidden from them, and which is well worth the knowing. The one best place to bury a good dog is in the heart of his master." excerpt from the Portland Oregonian, Sept. 11, 1925. By Ben Hur Lamp Sheena, I'm so sorry for your loss. You did right by him. Just whisper his name, and he'll be there in memory and spirit. Laurie

I'll see her tomorrow and tell her you said hello! Laurie

It is FCI's rule, and not much anybody can do about it unfortunately. Dogs that want to qualify for the team have to be AKC registered with a four generation approved pedigree, but that doesn't necessarily mean sport bred - AKC approves pedigrees from ABCA, ISDS, AIBC, NASD. And you are right, this board membership does look unfavorably on any relationship with AKC. There is another organization that holds a world championship that is open to non-kennel club dogs - our USDAA sends a team, and it can even have mixed breeds on it. I'm not sure of the regulations, since I haven't aspired to doing that either, but I would bet that an unregistered agility sheepdog would certainly qualify, if the UK participates. Laurie

One advantage to registering the whole litter yourself (as the breeder/first owner) is the option of registering certain (or all) pups as "non-breeders" - there's a simple form on the ABCA website to do this. Then, any pups going to non-working homes (or pups without testicles or w/other defects) will not be bred unless the breeder/first owner specifically decides to change the papers to "full registration", ie, when and if the pup demonstrates adequate stock work or the testicles drop. ABCA will send you the papers to distribute to puppy buyers, and each person can send in the ownership transfer and name (or rename) the pup themselves. (But you control whether or not the pup will be able to produce registrable offspring down the line.) Of course, if all pups are going to working homes where you know and trust the buyer, you could register the litter as mentioned above...wait until all the pups are spoken for, then send it in with new owner's info and names already in place. Laurie

Well -they haven't chosen the American team yet, but my friend Carrie Jones was on Team USA the last couple of years, and I'm hoping she and Jive make it this year, too! I'd love to come as a spectator, but the cost is a little prohibitive, so I'll just cheer the USA on through cyberspace. Thanks for the link! Laurie

Sorry to hear RD's so sick! Check out this link from Lew Olsen (B-Naturals) about feeding for pancreatitis. He definitely suggests that feeding fat is blamed for pancreatitis, where usually there is some other underlying component -ie, steroid use.... hmmm. http://www.b-naturals.com/Jul2004.php I think the trick to recovery is to rest the GI tract and pancreas, and limit fat... so lean muscle meats, some easily digested fiber, and slowly getting back to a normal diet. My dogs just came through a horrible bout of "food poisoning"- my first ever in 12+ years of raw feeding. It will be a long time before I feed pork necks again. I thought I would have to take my old girl to the ER for fluids, but she bounced back after a day or so, and looks fine now. But try cleaning up after 13 dogs who are randomly spewing from both ends...so much for a Happy New Year's day! I used a combination of fasting, Parvaid, low fat chicken broth, Evangers canned 100% chicken with a little brown rice, canned pumpkin, Fortaflora, Yogurt w/probiotics. I know what you mean about not wanting to switch to some "kibble" diet after all those years on raw, and I bet you will be able to get back to raw as long as you find out the actual cause of his illness, and can work to eliminate that, rather than just treat his symptoms. FWIW, I wonder if MOJO's experience was so horrific and drawn out because of her dog being a small breed. Good Luck! Laurie

I have one dog like this - I spent a long time working on widening and deepening her outrun, but once she learned to drive, that's all she wanted to do from the moment we entered the field. I just worked on telling her "that'll do" when I saw her start to "stalk" instead of thinking about an outrun - called her to my side, broke her concentration and set her up again, and sent her with a shhshhhh. If she still tried to go in tight like she was going to stalk - I'd call her back again and reset- this time with a stronger physical presence and push. We worked it out in practice. I had to mix it up, like Rebecca suggested, so that she listened to what I was asking for, instead of assuming I wanted to her to push the sheep away. I've been told this can be quite common, for dogs that really like to be "up close and personal with their sheep" and pushy dogs. Laurie

Go to the AHBA website - www.ahba-herding.org - for a detailed description. Click on the various courses listed at the bottom of the page. Basically HTAD is an arena class in a smallish area with obstacles like chutes and pens - sometimes a take pen instead of a gather; and either a shed, a hold or a ribbon pull at the end. HRD is a ranch class which can be in a large area - but usually doesn't have a large outrun - just "farm task" type obstacles; and the course is designed by the host. Since HRD is not a prescribed class - you can email the trial secretary for a course description so you know what the lay out of the course includes. Just wondering... where is the trial going to be? I might be looking for one on the East Coast. Laurie ETA - looks like we all posted at the same time!

I have a feeling that she is just possessive over "high value" items, such as canned food, and not all food. I know some dogs like that. I actually got bitten pretty fiercely by a visiting dog (I was watching her for some friends who were on vacation). The dog was a highly trained agility dog and sociable, but a known "grouch" with other dogs. Well I came into the kitchen to find her raiding my covered trash can. My reaction was exactly what I would do with my own dogs - I firmly said "Hey, get out of that!" and went to grab her collar so that I could put her in her crate. She turned and launched at my stomach with her teeth, breaking the skin and leaving a lovely hematoma. Surprised the heck out of me - but come to find out later that she was "food aggressive" but only over "forbidden" things - not her regular food. If you can't get a crate quickly- how about a doorway baby gate from Walmart to seperate her during quiet time or when she's got a bone or eating. Personally, Ive never been a fan of free feeding, and especially when throwing new dogs into the mix. It can be a big tension builder, which can play out at other times besides at the food bowl. The more dogs you have, the more chance for a problem there. Laurie