laurie etc

Is there any way for us to move on and stick to the topic at hand--what is good for the breed as a whole? Enough already!

 

Denise,

In answer to your question, I think the only thing keeping the breed what it's supposed to be are the people who actually use the dogs for their original purpose. That doesn't mean they have to be trialers--any farmer/rancher who finds working stockdogs helpful on his/her operation will have a vested interest in keeping the dogs suitable for their original purpose. The question to me is at what point all those dogs bred for something else overwhelm the genetic base of the breed to the point where the working gene pool becomes too small to be viable.

 

J.

WOW- It's a good thing I have a hurricane day to catch up on all these posts - I still haven't read every single one in all the threads, but I think I have the gist of what's been discussed.

Here's my take on how to preserve the working border collie - from a personal and overall standpoint. This opinion is based on my limited knowledge - from 8 years of owning and training ABCA registered Border Collies for: lower level USBCHA style trialing (hopefully I have an OPEN prospect coming along), general farm use, AHBA trialing; and being deeply involved in the sport of Dog Agility (teaching, competing) for over 12 years.

1) I agree with Melanie's point that ABCA Border Collie Breeders greatly need to utilize the "non-breeding" option for registration. It's easy, cheap, and can be quickly reversed. The breeder just needs to register the pups in his own name to start with, and then transfer pre-registered non-breeding pups to the buyers. And if the breeder is selling to known working homes, a litter can have some non-breeders and some breeders sent in at the same time - just by designating which is which. Then, any time the breeder wants (for instance, when/if the non-breeder pup shows acceptable working ability and has gotten any requested clearances), that pup may be turned into a card-carrying breedable Border Collie. The responsibility and decision rests with the breeder. The breeder may not be able to keep a buyer from breeding, but can keep a buyer from registering pups. I'm not positive, but I would think that AKC would only register these pups as "limited" as well, since that is what is listed on the ABCA papers that must be sent in with an Open registration request. IMO, a better option if you're selling to sports people who desire AKC registration, is to also register the pups yourself as Limited (non-breeding/non-conformation showing) or have a contract in place that requires AKC registration only after neutering. Other that Rosanne, I haven't heard of too many Agility competitors who want the responsibility and hormonal challenges of intact dogs - they are going to spay/neuter when the growth plates close anyways.

2) ABCA should become more proactive educating breeders in the "salvation of the working Border Collie" project. They should encourage non-breeding registration for other than "genetic defect puppies". They should educate breeders about how simple it is to reverse the non-breeder status for dogs that demonstrate working ability. They should make it seem "the norm" so that buyers don't think they are getting an inferior product when they buy a non-breeder puppy. Maybe they should simply add a "check box" next to each puppy's slot on the back of the form instead of requiring a separate piece of paper for each puppy. That's how AKC does limited registration - the breeder simply checks a box.

3) Stud dog owners should require bitch owners to do the same.

4) Get some figures before you blame "sport collie breeders" for the breed's slippery road downhill. I probably know (or know of) almost all of the reputable "big price tag" sport breeders in this country and some in Canada. They are FAR OUTNUMBERED by the "pet breeders", who have jumped on bandwagon to make a few bucks. Check out puppyfind.com - there were over 300 Border Collie puppies listed there today- anywhere between $200 and $800. And where did most of the pet breeders get their "breeding" dogs? Not from the high dollar sport breeders - who mostly have iron-clad spay neuter contracts, or keep other types of control over those pups for life. We have Border Collies in our agility classes who wouldn't know a sheep if it hit them in the head (mostly from byb's) - and some very talented "sports bred" agility dogs who also have proven that they could just as well be working sheepdogs if their owners were inclined that way. But, the agility bug bites worse than the herding bug, so mostly people with the top level agility dogs don't advance much in sheepdog training.

5) Personally, I wouldn't buy a pup from anyone I considered a "Sports Breeder". I want it all - the whole border collie package, with an emphasis on above average stock work and natural (not mechanical) talent. The sports breeders I know (with one exception) ARE concerned with keeping the working dog in the puppies they produce. They know that's where the talent, drive and ability from. They mostly do not intermingle Barbies into the mix. And if they do, obviously those pups can't be ABCA registered. They are concerned for the breed's health, longevity, soundness, temperament and work ethic. They maybe don't have the knowledge to adequately test their dogs on stock, but they look for pedigrees that have produced stock dogs consistently and recently, and many of them are well acquainted with people who can test their dogs, or know the working pedigrees. Maybe the "average" working breeders should take notice of this and become more concerned and educated if they want to keep their piece of the pie in the marketplace. (I probably wouldn't buy a pup from a farmer who raises pups in a dark, damp barn, doesn't socialize them, doesn't check healthy on the parents; no matter how fantastic the parents "work". )

I have more thoughts, but having a hard time typing since I snipped of the tip of one finger trimming hooves on Wednesday. Enough for now. Flame if you like.

Laurie

I always thought border collie could do both herding and agility and excel at them. Comments from my previous post made me wonder...

 

Can border collie excel at herding and agility?

 

If yes, do you train herding and agility together?

 

Or do you just teach one then the other?

 

If no, why not?

I've been lurking today and trying to sell some sheep - but I read this thread and thought I'd respond with some of my own experience.

I work my dogs on sheep (primarily) and also have run/trained in agility with a three of them. I teach agility, and have been doing it for about 12 years. I have competed three dogs successfully in both agility and herding trials at the Novice/Pro Novice so it's not mutually exclusive; but I can almost promise you that your Border Collie trained to excel in agility (the way it is now- not 10 years ago) will not be a candidate for USBCHA Open trialing. IMO, it's the mindset you develop in the dog for agility that will work against you. Whole different mindset for stockwork. In agility, quick reactions, pumped adrenaline, break neck speed, throwing caution to the wind is what that game is about. You can have a dog trained that way and finish AHBA and AKC "all-breed" herding championships, where the stock is fairly well broke, and the dog is never out of voice command range. I've finished 4 AHBA Championships in short order, 2 of the 4 on dogs who also do agility at the Excellent/Masters level.

The mindset a dog needs to train/compete successfully at the Open level in sheepdog trials is so entirely different - he needs to be tuned in to the handler, but in charge of the sheep; be slow and thoughtful as necessary, authoritative as necessary; alternating lighting fast reaction with subtle, near-motionless control. To do that he can not be pumped up to the hilt. He cannot just react quickly- he can't think of sheep as a "game" - it's dead serious work. He has to listen and think and feel, and much of that comes from genetics; but also also comes from training and lifestyle.

I find my most success in either venue when I take training breaks from one or the other and concentrate on one sport. And if I had a dog that I thought could really succeed at the Open sheepdog level - first - I'd work on control and sheepdog mindset; second, I'd not do anything with that dog that was counter productive to that mindset.

Laurie

Five "dog broke" grade Katahdin wethers for sale. Worked lightly, but definitely not knee-knockers. One 3 year old, Two 2 year olds, Two yearlings. Also, five 2008 wethers to be weaned in August. All are fat, shed completely, healthy, up to date on CD/T and dewormed. $75 each or make an offer for the package. Laurie Anderson 304-821-1157 (near Winchester VA)

5 white and tan wethers for sale - Red Ram (in the back) not for sale

Eileen - I saw another "sheep for sale" listing here, but feel free to delete this if not appropriate.

thanks!

Laurie,

 

I did find the new website for the Veterinary Imaging Section; however, it does not list fees or a new address. I would assume the address is correct. You could call the Companion Animal Hospital to confirm the fees and how to send the radiograph.

 

Mark

Thanks Mark!

I found that website too, and finally called this morning. After listening to about 10 Automated Voice Messages,punching option codes, and getting disconnected twice; I finally reached a "human" in customer billing.

For anyone interested, she told me that the current fee for reading Hip Xrays is $50 (check made out to Cornell University); and to send the xrays to the following address:

Cornell University VMTH

Box 36

Campus Road

Ithaca NY 14853

In addition to having your vet take radiographs of your dog; I highly recommend you have your vet send the radiographs to Cornell for evaluation by their radiologists.

Info for Cornell hip consult

 

Mark

Hi Mark - A friend wants to send hip xrays in to Cornell for a reading, but the link to Cornell at the end of the previous thread (above) is no good. Any idea how much the consult is now, and the mailing address to send them to?

Laurie

Keepstone Farm

Novice Trial

July 26 and July 27 2008

Two trials each day

Sanctioned by VBCA

Entries open June 19. All entries must be accompanied by check. Entries close July 9 or when trial is full. No refunds after this date. Campers welcome; no hook-ups.

Make checks payable to: Susan Rhoades

Send entries to : Laurie Anderson

573 Cider Drive

Bunker Hill, WV 25413

$20.00 per dog per class: Nov/Nov, Pro/Nov, and Ranch.

Directions and more info at: www. keepstonefarm.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Owner/handler----------Dog------Sat Trial 1/Sat Trial 2------Sun Trial 1/Sun Trial 2

______________ _________ _________/_________ _________/__________

______________ _________ _________/_________ _________/__________

______________ _________ _________/_________ _________/__________

I understand that I am responsible for any cost incurred as a result of damages caused by me or my family or any dogs to facilities, animals or persons; and that in the event of personal injury, or damages to my property or animals, I will not hold Keepstone Farm, the owners, operators employees, or workers responsible.

Signature ______________________________________Date___________

Address ______________________________________________________

E-mail ____________________________ Phone # ____________________

Keepstone_Farm_VBCA_entry_form_7_08.doc

I'll start this off with a shot of my 1 day old Katahdin trips born Monday morning out of a 2 year old ewe. (She had a single last year - so she made up for it this year). Hey Mark and Renee - any pictures of your babies? Laurie

You mean like this?

 

http://www.chuckwilliamsjr.com/wp-content/...hickensized.jpg

yep.

I had one kill a chicken this week. The hen decided to nest in the lambing stall and the ewe didn't like that idea at all. I found the egg she had laid later. The lamb was sleeping on it. Most of my ewes are excellent mothers and have pasture lambed the last few years. I've been really careful this year after my unexpected losses.

 

Emily

Maybe she was trying to help your dogs to "Eat More Chicken!"

Laurie

Must be something in the air - I had my first two lamb last evening/early this morning as well. Normally pasture lambing, but I'm still spooked by the coyote problem from last Fall, so I decided at the last minute (just before dark) to bring the two eminent ones into a stall (since they had chosen the farthest, darkest end of the pasture for their "spot".) I was so proud of my little Pod - she calmly brought them up, then basically had to back them from the paddock into to the barn, all the while being threatened and head butted by the ewe who was in labor. (Since it was dark, I didn't realize it til she was in the stall, but the lamb's feet were already sticking out, and that ewe was NOT happy about having to come inside!) All's well - the first ewe had a large single, but the 2nd ewe made up for it by having healthy triplets! Now, 5 more ewes to go, and I'll stop being a nervous wreck!

Laurie

Hi. I'm just passing on the word for a friend. Bobby will be in Poway, Ca (San Diego county) April 16-20. Please contact her at pupsnewes@yahoo.com for details,

A

Anybody know if Bobby will be on the East Coast at all this year? Laurie

Thanks everyone else, too. This is helping me think more about the pups as individuals and get a game plan together. The nice thing is that having more than one pup to train, which means I don't have to feel rushed with either of them. I know they all develop at different speeds, and, so I am just playing it by ear with each of them. Historically, I have always gotten along better with bitches and mares, so that may be one reason I'm not "getting it together" as well with my male pup.

I'm also gun shy because I just placed a well bred 2 1/2 year old male as a pet (to my boyfriend) who was pretty much a washout. He started out looking like he had all the right stuff although he was very soft. I babied him along, and didn't pressure him at all, but he wouldn't tolerate any structure. By two he was leaving the field if everything didn't go "his way" (which sometimes involved gripping sheep from anxiety, then running out of the field). Sweetheart of a dog otherwise, and he is loving the couch potato life. I really don't think it as anything I did to make him this way, but you can't help having that nagging feeling. Laurie

But, if he is stopped then the sheep can move away from the pressure until they aren't feeling it. Are you sure he's putting pressure on the sheep when stopped and not that the sheep are just dog broke enough to keep moving to you or towards some other draw on the field?

That might cause more of a problem (making him stand longer) as it increases his anxiety that he will lose the sheep, and result in tight flanks. The way I look at it is that a young dog's biggest drive is to hold the sheep to you and his biggest fear is letting the sheep get away. It takes time to build that trust in you that if he does what you ask, he will not lose control of the sheep.

 

So, with a young dog, I think if you get a stop at all on balance, move off balance and flank the dog. Keep doing that until the dog is convinced that stopping is not going to result in losing control. Once they "get" this and relax, then you can ask for off balance and inside flanks, and once they get that, you can ask for longer downs letting the sheep drift off a bit because by then the dog will trust you that doing what you ask won't result in the sheep getting away.

 

...What they need is the confidence and trust to believe that doing what you ask, rather than what they think they ought to do, will result in control rather than loss of control.

 

 

Pearse

Thanks! Thinking about the scenario... By pressuring the sheep, I guess I meant he wasn't relaxing, and the sheep kept ending up on my feet. These particular sheep do like to be on top of me, they look at humans as "the safe place". Most recently, I did go back to using these really dog broke older wethers because the yearlings I had been working at my friend's place were getting "sour". They were almost too dog broke, but occasionally would just get crabby and decide not to respond to pressure from the dog, turn on the dog, or split off and cause my pups to want to chase. Most of the ewes at this farm have lambs right now, and I won't work them with the young dogs. I might get brave and work him in a smaller area on my own wethers (that are really light, but at least not sour).

So, I will try not requiring him to stand so long, and keep the flow going. He is a good boy, and wants to be honest. But, you're right, he needs to discover he has control and he won't lose his sheep just because he relaxes and/or listens to me. I haven't asked for anything but on balance stops from him yet, mostly just moving around and keeping him moving around the sheep in wide arcs, changing directions to encourage him to cover. I'll just keep doing that until I see more relaxation.

Laurie

Just a couple thoughts... If your dog is willing to give you a standing stop why do you feel the need to make him lie down, esp. when you think/know it's going to require 'pressure' from you to get it ? You seem to be concerned about him being able to handle the pressure, well... just don't go there. (imho)

 

As far as training in general, a person I consider one of my mentors said that, "when they're ready, pour it to 'em." I think he had a good point. Only you will know when your dog is ready for more training and at what pace. I try to make the most out of the time when I feel the dog is receptive without pushing too far too fast. Trying too soon is too much like pulling teeth, and waiting too long might miss the time when their 'window' is wide open.

 

Ray

Hi- thanks! I guess I think he needs a down because his "stand" is still pressuring the sheep- he's not mentally "in neutral" in his stand. So when I want to start adding flanks and such, I'll need him to have a neutral gear, right? I don't mind the stand, if I could get him to understand that he needs to "lighten up" and release some pressure on the sheep in that position. It's often when I ask him to down that he does his "explosive slice". I've been asking him to stand steady for longer, see if that will let him relax some. I have an older bitch that much prefers stand to down, which is fine (even though I say lie down, she usually just stops low on her feet, and that is OK with me.)

I guess I'm not sure either one of these pups are ready to "pour it to 'em", but I don't want to miss (or boggle) that window either.

Laurie

In light of Bart's debut video - I have two nice pups. I see a lot of great things in them, but I'm a bit paranoid about pushing them too fast, and burning them out. I've been very conservative with them so far. Looking for hints as to how to proceed ...

The male turned a year the end of December and started like Bart, all business. He was sooooo serious, and seemed to have all the right stuff mentally. Scary at 10 weeks old! Very bold and afraid of nothing. Has had nice casts from the beginning, but recently gets a wild hair sometimes and slices in (mostly caused by occasional lambs darting about). I basically started him like Bart, then tried him maybe once a month, until he turned a year old. Mostly just wearing/walk-abouts around a big field, and letting him feel and cover his sheep. Keeping things calm and low-key. He still won't take a lie down, but will stand when I ask for it, and block him. He's seeming more mature, but at the same time, started challenging me a bit on the stopping, and calling off. His lie down is great off of sheep, but he doesn't seem to "get it" with the pressure of the sheep. I "think" it's time to put a little pressure on him for the down and to stop the occasional slicing silliness. What do you think? My goal is to keep his naturalness, but get reliable stops. I'd also like to start adding more structure so I can begin actual outruns instead of just flanking/casting around with the sheep close.

I have another one who is 10 months old. Very natural, thoughtful, calm, but softer than the boy - (easier to pressure into moving away - has never really tried to "beat me".) Started nicely at the same age, then not much until the last couple of weeks. Moved from the round pen after a session into a 200x 100 area. Her lie downs are lovely, just by letting her balance and blocking her a bit. I'd like to move her to the bigger field and start the wearing /walk-abouts. I feel like she is going to come along faster than the boy above (she's more receptive to subtle pressure) but I don't want to rush her or pressure her too fast. What would you suggest?

Laurie

Here's Bart's first time on sheep. Well, technically it's his 2nd time. The first was about 10 minutes before this. He did so well that Denise grabbed her camera to get him on film, and he did even better this time. Bart's bred by Laura Hicks, out of her Nell, by Haley Howard's Moss, and just turned 3 months old. He was more into the come bye side, showed a natural cast as he'd go to gather, and really wanted to keep all the sheep together. And he was darned cute doing it.

 

Very cool pup! My question - now that you see what he is mentally "made of" - Where do you go from here? Do you go on with it, or put him away and just bring him out occasionally to see if it's still the same until he's more physically mature? I have started a couple of pups that showed me this kind of seriousness, and I've been afraid to continue, in case I get to a point where they need more pressure but aren't ready for that mentally. I think I'll start a new thread on this so as not to take away from Bart's awsomeness! Laurie

thanks Fiona!

Laurie

OK - slightly Off Topic - but this is the funniest You Tube "Training Video" I've seen....and if anyone can translate, I would love to know what this handler is saying. Laurie

My current vehicle: 2006 Dodge Sprinter - Upside: fuel efficient Mercedes Diesel Engine, Easily fits 10 24x36 Dog crates and has room to stand up and walk down the length of it. Downside: it's rear wheel drive...

Added bonus: in a pinch, not only can you take you dogs, but you can haul the sheep in it too! (And it's heavy duty enough to pull a trailer).

Truthfully - Anybody want to buy it? I have 2 vehicles and can only afford to make payments on one. Email me privately for details! Laurie

Chesney has been vomiting and having diarrhea since yesterday afternoon. ...

P.S. for those who don't know Chesney eats a raw diet ...

Anyways, advice is welcome.

(Disclaimer: I'm not a vet, so please don't take this as medical advise, just my own opinion.)

Does your other dog eat the same diet? Is he OK? If they ate the same items, and only one is sick, I would take him in for a look-see. Might be nothing, but better safe than sorry. I had a nasty case of food poisoning with all my dogs the first of January. Every one had eaten pork necks for dinner, and everyone produced a version of loose stool and/or vomit overnight. So I knew it was the food, and was able to treat them all by fasting a day, and then giving bland small portions of rice/cooked chicken/pumpkin for a couple days or so. I also gave the dogs who were continuing after the overnight episode a few doses of Parvaid and Metronidazole (Flagyl)- great stuff to keep on hand for emergency gastric problems. Laurie

Joy used to have major seperation anxiety, to the point where her gums would bleed from chewing. It's not as bad. but it's still there. I practice the supervised seperation at home, giving the leash to my stepmom, but even with someone familiar she cries and paces. My mom was a CGC trainer/evaluator/somethin like that, and she told me they won't take that.

 

Also, do the dogs have to be in a stand for the examination portion? Will you fail if they tuck their tail a bit when 'examining' the hind quarters?

I've been teaching and testing CGC for years. Your Mom is right - She won't pass if she cries, whines, paces during the supervised separation. Try increasing the amount of time slowly. Start with 15-30 seconds, and gradually build the time. Get an idea of when she starts feeling anxious, and work just below her threshold for awhile, coming back to reward for being calm before the anxiety starts. Also, try giving her a cue, like saying "I'll be right back", walking away, coming back and rewarding the composure. If she can concentrate on maintaining composure in anticipation of you coming back to reward, it will be easier for her to deal with the longer separation.

The examination is actually a sit for exam, although I allow a stand or down as long as the dog is cooperative. The dog should not be cringing in fear, jumping on or biting the examiner; but a little bit of wiggling, tail tucking and movement is acceptable to most examiners, as long as the dog is controlled and calm. The owner can actually put a finger under the collar to steady the dog if necessary.

Laurie

Nobody gets into it thinking they're going to make big bucks. They get into it thinking they're going to make a difference. And, silly me - here, I've been sharing my knowledge and expertise with people on the Boards for YEARS, now, and doing it for free, when I could have been out violating my personal and professional ethics in the interest of a few bucks. But no, what an idiot, I've been spending my extremely valuable free time trying to make a difference - for free.

 

Why did I even bother?

Because you are good person who truly cares about the INDIVIDUAL animals you treat, and about people and animals in general. You are one of a rare breed. Thank you!

I do know a few vets like you; I ADORE them! But I also know plenty of vets who may have started out caring, conscientious, wanting to make a difference; but do not take the time to consider an individual animal's best interest. I don't think it's a money thing at all. It's more of a "volume thing" that comes from living and working in our fast paced society. They work in "production line" veterinary clinics, where one protocol fits all. They will vaccinate with everything under the sun because the drug companies make/test the vaccines, so they "must" be safe; and they espouse the feeling that "more is better" when it comes to disease protection. Drug companies sell this idea. They are the ones making the big bucks, not the vets. Busy, overbooked, overworked vets may not have the time or desire to read up on what the latest studies are proving. It's easier and more efficient to just go ahead and hit 'em with a 5-way vaccine, a rabies vaccine, dewormer, medication for ticks and fleas, drops for their itchy ears, and send 'em out the door with a bag of Science Diet.

Unless a client educates himself, he has no way of knowing whether what a vet does to his animal is appropriate or not. I'd throw this back in the pet owner's corner. It's our responsibility as animal owners/caregivers to be "educated consumers". Read up, ask questions, get answers. Then make an educated decision for your own animals; hopefully with the help of an educated, caring veterinarian you can trust to treat your animals as individuals.

Laurie

Sounds just right to me. I've known some shepherds who tie a hind leg up round the belly so the ewe can't put any weight on it at all. Unless of course she falls over on it.

 

So far all the breaks I've mended on adult sheep have been front legs, but there's no reason why a rear would be any harder. Definitely worth doing, in my book.

Thanks Becca and Bill - when my daughter gets here to help hold her, we'll give it a try. I'm going to take a picture of it - hopefully "before AND after". I've wrapped enough horse legs in my days as a horse owner/vet tech , I think we can manage as long as the ewe cooperates. I do know about padding it, and using LOTS of Duct tape to secure the splint.

Laurie

I had a pregnant ewe come up to eat last night with what looks like a hind leg fracture - just below the hock. The ewe seems bright and alert otherwise, and is eating and drinking. It's not compound, no wound, and there isn't much, if any, swelling. I could restrain her myself well enough to tell that there isn't really "crepitous", and she has circulation to the lower leg. It's almost like the ligaments that attach the hock and cannon bone may have been severely strained or partially ruptured on the medial side. She is not weight bearing on it, but when she touches her toe down, the whole lower leg obviously abducts to the outside, below the hock. Anyone have any experience with how these would do in a splint? I won't have help to splint it until this evening, but I was thinking of wrapping/padding it with cotton and vet wrap, then splinting with PVC from above the hock to below the fetlock joint on both sides of the leg, to keep it from bending side to side. For right now, she's in a stall with a buddy, she is doing fine just standing on the other 3 legs, and doesn't seem overly concerned. She's not due to lamb the until first week of April. She looks to be carrying twins. Is it worth a shot to try to fix her?

thanks,

Laurie

We will be hosting Kathy Knox for a working clinic March 14-15-16, and again in June and November. Entries are

limited. 3 spots remain. For more information, please call or email.

 

Sheryl K. Day

402-298-7421

chinaday@windstream.net

sorry - maybe it's just late and I'm tired- where is "E. NE"?

thanks,

Laurie