laurie etc

run, do not walk, away from this trainer. find one who understands dog behavior. read this link- one of my favorites... "he just wants to say hi" http://www.positiveway.us/Downloads/HeJustWantsToSayHi.pdf Laurie

Certainly not talking about Aled Owen or ROY... and I have no stake in these breeders, but I see some blanket comments in this thread that could be considered pointedly defamatory, for instance... “RS also inbreed(s) on(e) some horrific temperaments.” “I think you need your head examined to pay their prices at LE and be on a waiting list for dogs esp with some of the negatives in their lines such as seizures and deafness.” “Temperament issues in the Rising Sun lines are prevalent, period.” People might want to watch what they post publicly, that's all. Laurie

OK - just pack Dot up in a box and send her to me . Laurie PS - Some of ya'll should probably watch what you are typing/insinuating on a public forum - things are sounding a bit slanderous at times.

Well sure. But to me there is a lot of difference between a dog bred with his foremost job as a "lap dog" and Border Collie. I would certainly hope that a good Lhasa would have pretty strong inherent bite inhibition, or he wouldn't be much of a companion dog breed. Herding/working dogs are much more apt to use their teeth as part of their jobs, so therefore might be a little harder to convince. I have a five year old dog that I raised from a pup who still likes to mouth my sleeve/hands occasionally when we run agility. I let her get away with it as a pup, when I didn't have a toy or leash handy, and needed to distract her fom staring down other dogs. Her default when she gets too excited in agility is often to "mouth" at my sleeves or hands. I wish I hadn't let her do it, but hind site's 20/20. Granted, she doesn't break the skin or even leave a mark, but it would be a stupid way to get disqualified. Laurie

Admir Ski said " I can't get a handle on the process of teaching him to moderate his bite. He has a few (hardly ever) times when he'll just mouth, but it quickly escalates, and then sometimes he just goes straight to trying to bite my arm/hand/leg off. How do you reward soft biting? Should you?" I can think of 3 reason why dogs don't have bite inhibition. I'm not advocating any type of punishment for puppy biting, which could cause a dog to later "lash out", not knowing how to control his bite. Another reason dogs don't learn bite inhibition is that some pups never mouth or bite at all as puppies, so never learn inhibition. When the day comes that they need to use their teeth, they go "all out". Another reason is being taken away from Mom and littermates too early, before his "own kind' have taught him that hard biting is unacceptable. Your puppy bites. Do you really want a dog that puts his teeth on you as an adult? Why would you "reward" any type of biting? Basically, you just tolerate "puppy mouthing", and then teach an off to deal with the hard biting. It's not rocket science. You are probably making way too much out of the whole thing. Some pups just bite hard. They need to learn not to. Laurie

I haven'd through all your posts regarding Skis' biting, but here are a couple sugggestions: 1) Stop treating him like a baby. He is a dog. You are the human. Establish that relationship now while he is small. Make your hands, ankles , body parts more unvailable. By that I mean, stop "offering them" and moving them around. Many people make the mistake of getting down to the pup's level, to play. That puts you on equal terms, and you don't want to be. A little pup can't bite your arms/hands if you are standing; and if he's going for ankles, pants legs, it is much less fun to bite something that is stationary. Stopping movement usually stops the action. 2) If he is persistent in biting pants legs and the muzzle hold isn't working, elevate him off his feet. Pick him up, not cuddling, take him out of control of the situation. Once he settles, put him back down. If he persists, a time out in the crate until the idea leaves his head is warranted. 3) If you haven't already, start teaching him to "settle" in his crate. He needs to learn he has an "off button". Give him some crate time to chew a bone, chill out, not demand attention. Start in short increments, when he is quiet, randomly, quietly go by the crate and drop a small treat in. Don't reward or give attention when he is "demanding" attention, only when he is quiet. 4) Teach an "Off" with a toy. Get him playing/biting a toy. Use a toy on a rope, or a long tug toy. Not something that he can accidentally latch onto your hand with. Move the toy around, play with him, then once he is engaged in biting/chasing the toy, firmly clamp it to you thigh/hip, and say "off". Game over. The movement is stopped, and he will soon think this non-moving toy is pretty boring. When he lets go of the toy, praise, pause a few seconds to let it sink in, and then the game can resume. It's a give and take game. You offer the toy = he gets to bite. You stop the action and say "off" = he stops biting. If he trys to get to your hand instead of the toy, the game stops. He learns that teeth on human skin is not permitted. Once he understands "off" on a toy, you can use the command with anything he is mouthing/biting. Laurie

Consider asking your vet for valium supositories (no needles involved, but fairly quick to act). A friend with an epileptic dog keeps them on hand, so she can quickly administer if her dog starts seizing and won't stop. It is a controlled substance, but can be prescribed (not sure of the shelf life, though). Laurie

I actually whelp puppies in a cozy quiet area like a bathroom, so there's no where the bitch can hide that I can't get to. Another way would be to put an expen around the pool with a cover like Julie suggested. Once she actually has the first puppy, she will be much more likely to settle in one place. Right now she's uncomfortable and confused about the whole thing (thinking she needs to potty because of the pressure). Just keep an eye on her and try not to panic. You'll probably see contractions and pushing (bearing down) before she has the first one, and before every other one. She can have them standing, squatting or lying down. I've had bitches act really scared their first time and try to run away from the pain. Sitting with those helped, and hormones kick in pretty quickly, once they get down to business . I've had them act like nothing out of the ordinary was about to happen and litterly "pop" out puppies like terds, look back and go "hmm, what's that?". I let the mom take care of the cleaning, afterbirth, etc, but make sure if she's preoccupied with one puppy that she doesn't forget about cleaning the next ones. I watch until each puppy is out, then double check that the membranes are off it's head and it's breathing, then let mom take over cleaning and bonding. If the puppies come quickly one after the other and the mom is moving around alot, I rub damp puppies off with a hand towel and move them to a basket with a heating pad next to mom as she gets ready to have the next one. Laurie

A bit of advice - Once the puppies are here, do not leave them with loose towels, blankets, sheets, etc. . Bitches liek to dig and rearrange bedding. Years ago I had 2 pups suffocate from crawling between the layers and mama laying on top of them. A nice fluffy washable bathmat in the baby pool and double stick carpet tape around the edges works great. As long as the mama stays with them, and the room is heated, they will probably not need extra "covers" or heat lamps. She will keep them warm. If it's cold, a heated area that they can crawl to is good, as long as it isn't a fire or chewing hazzard. You will be able to tell how the pups' temp is by how they are sleeping. Piled closely together is normal, spread apart they are too hot. If you see a single pup sleeping separated from the group, it needs attention or is possibly sick. Put it back in the pile of puppies and watch it closely. Laurie

Keepstone Farm Novice Trial January 17 and January 18, 2009 Two trials each day (in 2 different fields each day) Sanctioned by VBCA Entries open Dec 20–all entries must be accompanied by check. No refunds after Jan 9. Limited camping space available, no hook-ups. Please check with Susan for available space. Make checks payable to: Susan Rhoades Send entries to : Laurie Anderson 573 Cider Drive Bunker Hill, WV 25413 $20.00 per dog per class: Nov/Nov - Pro/Nov - Ranch. For more info/directions: www.keepstonefarm.com Owner/handler____Dog _______Class_____Sat Trial 1/Sat Trial 2__Sun Trial 1/Sun Trial 2 _____________ ___________ _________ _________ _________ ________ _________ _____________ ___________ _________ _________ _________ ________ _________ _____________ ___________ _________ _________ _________ ________ _________ Total enclosed: _________ check # _________ I understand that I am responsible for any cost incurred as a result of damages caused by me, my family, or my dogs to facilities, animals or persons. In the event of personal injury, damages to my property or animals, I will not hold Keepstone Farm, the owners, operators employees, or workers responsible. Signature:______________________________________ Date:__________ Address_______________________________________________________ E-mail __________________________Phone #_______________________

Questor's Fox View Phoenix CD MX MXJ AD U-AG II OAC OAJ CGC TDI 6/27/94 - 3/19/08 Phoenix exemplified the Golden Retriever breed - beautiful, athletic, graceful, biddable, patient, comical, and stoic... She was every bit of that right up until her last day on earth, when a silent urethral tumour made it necessary to say a rushed goodbye. Never having puppies of her own, Auntie Phoenix took every new Golden or Border Collie puppy under her wing to raise. A little too "creative" for the repetitive nature of obedience training, Phoenix started me on my "agility journey"; and her crazy immune system was a driving force behind my discovery of a healthy alternative to feeding and caring for my dogs (raw food and minimal vaccination). Phoenix was a true Princess with a heart of gold. Rest well, my fair and faithful friend, until we meet again. Laurie

Just catching up - I would suggest you find a good veterinary chiropractor/acupuncturist to go over her. If you don't have one available, a good canine masseuse could also detect subtle soft tissue problems/injury that your vet might not pick up on. Sounds to me like she could have a pelvic misalignment or spinal problem that causes intermittent shooting leg pain - similar to what people with sciatica get. I’ve seen dogs that were hard to diagnose, but had similar off and on problems like you describe. A good chiropractic adjustment did wonders, as well as acupuncture or deep massage to release a chronically tense area. Laurie

AAAWWWWW- Pod's younger prettier cousin Bliss! SHE LOOKS GREAT! Laurie

Keepstone Farm Novice Trial Nov 29 and Nov 30, 2008 Two trials each day Sanctioned by VBCA Entries open Nov 1 –all entries must be accompanied by check. No refunds after Nov 21. Limited camping space available, no hook-ups. Please check with Susan for available space. Trial is at 412 Russell Rd, Berryville, VA. Make checks payable to: Susan Rhoades Send entries to : Laurie Anderson 573 Cider Drive Bunker Hill, WV 25413 $20.00 per dog per class: Nov/Nov - Pro/Nov - Ranch. For more info/directions: www. keepstonefarm.com Owner/handler Dog Class Sat Trial 1/Sat Trial 2 Sun Trial 1/Sun Trial 2 _______________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ Total enclosed: _________ check # _________ I understand that I am responsible for any cost incurred as a result of damages caused by me, my family, or my dogs to facilities, animals or persons. In the event of personal injury, damages to my property or animals, I will not hold Keepstone Farm, the owners, operators employees, or workers responsible. Signature:______________________________________ Date:__________ Address_______________________________________________________ E-mail __________________________Phone #_______________________

Not really sure what Skip's behavior is, but I think there is often a resource guarding or confidence issue if he's reacting to other dogs in a bad way. Maybe he's resource guarding you? I don't think it has much to do with whether or not he turns on to sheep, although I've seen sheep bring the confidence out in fearful or timid dogs. Dogs that have " misguided stalking/chasing behavior" sometimes change when they find out what it is they are "really " supposed to do with those instincts. Gotta would be very happy if she, sheep, ducks and I were the only beings in the universe. She likes people, tolerates respectful Border Collies, but every other living thing is either a "sheep" (big dogs/animals), or a "duck" (little dogs and cats) in her mind. L

I have seen Coon work. Awesome dog, and he and Kent were a great team. From what I've seen he is a confident, powerful dog - with a lot of authority on stock (both sheep and cattle). I watched Kent pour out 50 lbs of feed for a group of hungry lambs, and then have Coon pick them right off of the feed trough "Yes sir, Mr. sheepdog, we're not really hungry, we are walking away from that yummy grain and going up that hill, yessirree!" I've heard (through the grapevine) that he did have his share of "grip outs" at trials, and that maybe he has a bit of a "short fuse". I have a Coon daughter running in Pro-novice. What I like about her...She has a ton of natural style and ability. She seems to read new sheep very well and learns things quickly. Very good sense of balance and pace. She wants to please me, and tries very hard to takes her commands (all though sometimes she still folds to the pressure and takes a wrong flank, or gets sticky on the drive away.) She responds best to a quiet voice. What I don't like about her...she lacks a little confidence sometimes, and she is not very "dog friendly". She has good self control, but really does not appreciate other dogs invading her space. She went through a period at about 1.5 years old where I wanted to strangle her - she started out awesome as a pup, and then became a nasty gripper. I stopped training her for a while, because I didn't think she could take the kind of physical pressure I needed to apply to stop the gripping without turning her completely off sheep. Brought her back a year later, she was mature and she has been doing great ever since. I know there are others on this boards that probably know Coon much better than me. Robin, Denise? Laurie

So sorry to hear this, I know your heart is aching. You were there for her from beginning til end, just as Flick was always there for you. A dog couldn't ask for any more. That'll do, Flick. Run Free good girl! Laurie

Hi- Keeping my fingers and toes crossed for Flick. My 13 year old girl, Rose, started coughing (mostly at night) the end of the week, too. She is scheduled to go in for her geriatric checkup this coming week. I'm on the same page as you, fearing the worst, but hoping for the best. In the Spring, my "healthy" 14 year old Golden went in for her routine geriatric checkup, came home with antibiotics for a possible bladder infection (bloodwork looked great, but some white cells in her urine). A month later at her recheck visit, she became acutely painful during her ultrasound and urine collection. She was diagnosed with inoperable cancer of the urethra (tumor almost completely blocking), she needed to be euthanized immediately. Needless to say, I'm a little gun shy about Rose's appointment. Here's to all the old dogs! Laurie

I had pneumonia a few months ago, and along with the antibiotics I was given an Albuterol "inhaler/puffer". From working in a horse hospital, I know Albuterol is pretty standard protocol for horses with pneumonia, so maybe check with your vet about prescribing a "puffer" for Flick. I would think if humans and horses are OK with it, dogs should be too. I would also check into some sort of immune system enhancement, since pneumonia could be a signal that her general immune system is compromised. Another random thought, did your vet do a chest xray? If not, it would be a good thing to get a baseline shot, to make sure that the antibiotics are clearing up the problem in a few weeks, and/or to rule out other issues like tumors. Laurie

Anyone breeding with the "intent" of producing Border Collies for other than stock work is contributing to dilution of the breed's intent and purpose. That is not to say that there aren't different levels of stock work; and whether one is breeding for "Open Trial" workers, or useful working farm dogs should not label that breeder as having a hand in the breed's demise. Breeding proven top-level working dogs certainly "should" increase the odds of producing top level workers, but that isn't a given; and multiple bitch owners breeding to a "popular" trial dog - concentrating the gene pool - may or may not be in the breed's best interest. I think by mandating that only "top level workers" or high profile dogs owned by accomplished handlers are appropriate to breed, you may be setting a standard that "throws the baby out with the bathwater". Just like mandating that breeders should only breed CEA clear to clear, and culling all the carriers would be an obviously wrong move; so would culling all the "less than stellar" or unproven dogs from a gene pool. How does anyone really know what would be lost by culling the "yellow" and "orange" from the gene pool? I think breeders (like you and some others on this board), who breed thoughtfully, selectively and infrequently are to be commended. It is obvious that money is not the motive for those breeding decisions, and that they have the best interest of the breed at heart. I do question the motives of anyone that breeds multiple (5+) litters yearly, whether for "stock work", sport, or for pets. To me, income-based breeding puts a breeder in a position where they may or may not have the best interest of the breed at heart, even if they are producing top-notch dogs. Are they really doing the breed a service by flooding the market with their puppies? Are they keeping track of more than the "good/working" puppies' progress? Are their puppies in non-working pet or sport homes sold on non-breeding registration? Are they willing to take back and/or rehome puppies from their breedings? As stewards for the breed, it's not just the puppy you produce and sell, but knowing what happens with those puppies over the long-term, and letting those results steer future breeding (or culling) decisions. Traditionally, "well-bred" means what's on the pedigree, regardless of who owns the dog, or how it works. Same with horses. I guess we differ in our "semantics". I don't think I ridiculed or defended anybody. Just posed some questions for discussion. Call me the Devil's Advocate, I guess. Gotta go sort and move some sheep. With my candy-colored Pro-Novice Dog, and Kenny's BYB Pro-Novice dog. Gee, I hope we can get it done. I'll check back this afternoon. Laurie

Well, some folks were blaming "Sports breeders" for the Border Collies' doom. Then it changed to "Novice Handler Breeders" whose feet the problem lies at. Somewhere along the way the surplus Rescue dogs got tagged for taking homes away from more deserving "well bred" working puppies (who can't find working homes for some reason - I still don't understand that one), and so on... Just wondered if anyone actually had facts to back up these accusations... It would be interesting to know. And what would be considered "well bred" - again only red bullseye dogs? Would that include all Open level dogs, or only the ones who qualify for or run in the Finals? What about unproven relatives of said dogs? What about dogs who run at the Finals but produce serious medical issues (orthopedic problems, epilepsy, late onset deafness, cryptorchids)? What about their close relatives who never leave the farm? How small would the gene pool actually become if it was limited in any one decade to "Finals" dogs and their working progeny? Laurie

So does anybody REALLY know - percentage wise - how many puppies are registered at ABCA by: 1 Professional Stockmen 2 Usbcha "Hobby" Trialers 3 Novice "Hobby" Trialers 4 Small Farm "Working" litters 5 BYB's Pet litters 6 Sports litters 7 Puppy mills Just wondering... Laurie

Yes, some of those those darn "sheep" dogs from the East seem to be talented enough to take on the cattle dogs from the West in their own backyard and come home with prizes. It's great to know those kind of dogs are out there. Wow, Julie, that's a tad harsh, over-generalized and elitist. I think it quite depends on an individual's access to mentorship and knowledge; as well as their research, experience, dedication and personal motives... not just the level that they may or may not be trialing. If someone wants to breed a litter, and puts the necessary time, thought ,and research into it; starts with decent working stock, breeds "up" to a complimentary dog, and stands behind their puppies... I don't see that as being a negative for the breed. Gee, I guess I haven't seen the ammendment where ABCA decided that only puppies from USBCHA handlers can be registered. Laurie

I agree. Sue R relayed about her "nicely bred, flashy, flank off of the pressure" dog not being able to get the job done on runaway cattle, and her gritty "ugly" dog jumping in and accomplishing it. I think in a farming situation, Joe Farmer is gonna appreciate dog # 2,and feel like taking dog # 1 out behind the barn. This is why it's important for modern breeders to keep in mind that it's the "whole package" that needs to be kept alive, not just the "trial package". It's worrisome to me that Melanie noted how many (75%?) of the dogs in her collection of pedigrees (mostly collected at prominent Trials) were related by at least one grandparent. Are modern breeders limiting the gene pool too much by only breeding top trial dogs or closely related dogs to other top trial dogs? How many ABCA Border Collies today are bred for Trialing vs Farm Work vs Sport vs "Pets" ? It would be interesting to know the statistics... Laurie

Just a quick example - I weaned my lambs last week - almost 5 months old and as big as their dams, and never worked except sparingly with their dams (to vaccinate and deworm) since I moved them to a new farm soon after lambing. Yesterday, I needed to catch them into the run-in shed to grab one out that someone was there to buy. They are wild as March hares - and don't know about "coming to a person with a bucket" at all. (In fact, people are probably just as scary to them as dogs, without their mamas there to "calm them".) I absolutely could not have gotten the job done with out a dog. Pod reads lambs so well, is patient with them, but anticipates their crazy, flighty movement. It took no time at all to settle them and have them decide to walk like little soldiers into the shed, where Pod held them in a corner until we could tie up a makeshift gate behind them. No amount of "machinery" or manpower could have accomplished what she did so easily. Without a dog, we would have been there all night trying to corral the little buggers, and would probably have ended up with injured, exhausted sheep. On another note- reading all these posts makes me wonder if the "bullseye" shouldn't be the tough, dogs that will walk into pressure, and get the job done efficiently, rather than specifically "trial winners". **Edited to add- I went back and re-read Denise's Bullseye Analogy, and she does use top "workers", not top "trialers". It is from this board that I keep hearing that only Open level dogs should be bred to Open level dogs. ** I've heard a number of comments from old-timers and experienced sheepdog people from both sides of the pond that so many of the dogs winning trials nowadays are the "easy", softer dogs who tend to train up quickly and want to stay off pressure. Makes them easier to train for the "weekend warriors", and quicker to get on the trial field, but they may not possess "the whole package" for hard ranch/hill work. A couple of the old timers I've talked to prefer a tough, hard headed dog that will stand up to training and "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'". So are the "weekend warriors" changing the breed from its original purpose, too? Food for thought. Laurie