KJ

This thread is going terribly awry...how can it not tho? I'm talking about dog poo

Howdy- I haven't posted in a long long time. Hello out there!! Over the years I've gotten tremendous help and support from this board for my aggressive Aussie Shep and also with our BCX Curly, but Shep sort of took over. Until Monday he hadn't been to the vets in 2 years. Among the list of awful, traumatic visits, our last one was unbelievably bad...thus the 2 year gap. In that 2 year period, I tried, as I do, contacting every Dr, board, group, association I could find, looking for a vet who knew how to care for a real reactive one like mine. Prior visits were sedatives, 2 leashes one fed thru a fence, pulling him against the fence and trickery, the heaviest doses of shot sedatives possible and overall major stress but in the end he'd get shots and blood draw. Also with each visit it was reinforced, 'this ain't gonna be good'. Our last visit 2 years ago was assisted by someone we hired who said they'd help us. In desparation I agreed. She wouldn't use a muzzle, she wouldn't use sedatives but opted for a prong collar and brut strength hanging him off the ground multiple times, and he bit her multiple times too. The vet called with a crackly voice saying she should have stopped it b.c it was inhumane. Ok in the past 8 months I have been working with a real positive trainer. I live in the land of punishment training so I gave up on finding a trainer. She's so smart, she's great with dog and foremost she understands the complicated aspects aggressive behaviour. She began by finding the subtle signs of stress in Shep and teaching new 'tricks' like putting the side of his head in my hand b/c he has head issues b/c he was hit on the side of the head all the time. Our focus was to get him vetted. First I had to teach him to love his muzzle. Now he puts his nose in the muzzle instead of me nervously wrangling it on him. This trainer also found a vet who actually had a protocol for handling aggressive dogs. I was shocked! It involved kind of a simple solution involving a towel over the head. The trainer, Shep and I worked on this protocol in the parking lot at the vets and at home. To me after many failures and frankly coming to realize no one knows how to deal with dogs like mine, b.c dogs like mine don't get too far, we had a PLAN and not one but 2 willing, competent awesome professionals. The big day went like this: -happy muzzy (muzzle) -throw a towel over his head---he can stand still under it for about 20 seconds -then the vet quietly comes out and gives him a Telazol shot ---a drug no other vet had ever mentioned--- it was perfect and not ACE. -5 minutes later he was a ragdoll, they carried him in back to a room -I was so nervous that something would go terribly wrong as it always had, the Dr recommended I go have lunch and a cocktail while we waited, which we did. ( a Painkiller at Pussers Landing in Annapolis MD if you're ever in the area) -4 hours later, he had all his shots, he was put under anesthesia and got a dental-his teeth were green b.c he'd never had a dental (he's 6) and now they are white, his blood was drawn too b/c he's hypothyroid -when we went to pick him up, my husband got him out of the kennel and he was a little wobbly but a lamb...a flippin' lamb. I can't express how relieved I am. I can't express to my trainer and the vet and staff how much I love them b/c it would scare them!! I decided to post b/c maybe someone out there has this problem and maybe the Dr's protocol would work for them too. I also decided to post b/c finally I am not logging in distraught hysteria and seeking help. YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

The pill Deter worked for me before but since it was reoccuring what worked in our case is figuring out WHY the poo was so tasty b.c he only had corophagia (poo eating) when his stomach wasn't quite right and it was just his not our other dogs... (snob) Turns out the food I was giving him while being high end was too high in protien and he wasn't digesting properly which in turn, made his poo, probably taste like his food. It will also trigger if eats wheat or something else starts a pattern of malabsorption. It's just gross when this occurs so I did a lot googling. None of the natural alternatives (like pineapple, hot sauce etc) helped in our case. I read adding acidophilus (sp?) to help digestion which I did as well. (I was trying everything at the same time) Also adding Prozyme was suggested, a digestive enzyme but again, the solution was changing the food itself. I also add a tablespoonish dollop of low fat yogurt to breakfast every morning. Adding fiber to his diet helped and changing from high protien food. Also when he turns around to check it out, I tell him to 'leave it' and throw the frisbee or whatever else.

Looked up overheating and found this thread. For those whose dogs overheat or get the signs of overheating, do your dogs get hot otherwise? I took Curly to the vets about 4 years ago b/c he gets so hot, when he's NOT exercising. The vet said that some dogs just run hot. Then another vet didn't seem to think it was a big deal. He seems so hot maybe 60% of the time inside. Most of the summer he lays on top of the A/C vent on the floor. He goes from room to room trying to find the cool spots and when you feel where he's been the floor pretty warm--so I guess he's moving b/c it's gotten too warm to lay where it once was cool. (does that make sense?) So he moves around a lot, and a lot of laying down hard with a moan often. Then I wonder if he's in pain? Also in the middle of the night he will get up, act like he has to "go out" urgently and he goes outside and lays on the brick path. This happens all year-maybe 2-3x a month. I put the fan on him but it doesn't seem to help. I have a stock tank for him to cool down in but then I dump it b/c he gets a pretty bad stink after a few days of much dunking. Also you can't get near his behind. So taking a temp has to be under sedation. If he's restrained he will become a bucking bronco and will hurt himself before he will let anyone restrain him. I'm taking him again tomorrow to have his Lymes checked. He had a CBC in April and he had some elevations but the Vet said they weren't high enough to worry about. The Lymes was active. (and he's been limping-he was supposed to be on IR for 6 weeks but it's impossible) I'm also curious about the once a dog has had heat exhaustion they are more prone. Any idears? Thanks

Seems he's just fine. He ate his past 3 meals and no more runny nose but still kind of depressed. Now I am anthropomorphizing (you know what I mean) but I am wondering if the heat bums him out. Lately he's been the one to run to the door to come in form playing and he always goes and lays on the register for the AC to blow on his front paws and head. He has always "ran hot". Unfortunately you cannot get anywhere near him to get his temperature. As soon as you get back around his hind he moves it away and if you restrain him he turns into a wild horse and will hurt himself to get away before he'll let you restrain him-even with sedation (alprazalom). Think the first vet I took him too may have caused that. We took him to get his nails trimmed (didn't know how to do it back then) and they muzzled him, 3 people pinned him, and he started frothing and his eyes were bugging out and then he became still. The vet said they had to "break his spirit". uhg. Anyway thanks for being there to keep me calm. Kim and Curl

I am going to sound like a paranoid ma but...Curly doesn't seem to feel good and his nose is runny---clear. I just wonder if it's signs of a fever or something. He does get very overheated in the summer, even with a little exercise-which he barely did today. This am he wouldn't eat breakfast either. He ate some biscuits and some cheese but refused kibble which is his usual. He's alert but seems a bit depressed too. He's had this runny nose before and is a very moody guy-don't know if the 2 are related. Anyway just wondered if anyone else has seen this in their dogs and what you've heard it is. I googled it but couldn't find much that I felt was solid. If I call the vet to say, Curly has a runny nose....they will come in the white van and fancy jacket. thanks Kim

Wow what a thread. I am the opposite of most that are responding. I am hyper-sensitive, coined phrase by multiple people in my life. I "over react" which is kind of a hurtful thing I've heard quite a bit. I've been this way all my life starting with crying when I saw old people or homeless people or animals that looked lost. The uncontrolable nature of it has gotten better but with animal stuff, I still can totally sob. When it comes to animals, the floodgates of emotion open wide. I've also had someone tell me I have the gift of "empathy". I have felt like John Coffee in the Green Mile at times. But I only see empathy as a gift, if you can do something with it, as opposed to just letting it consume you. So for me, the crying on the spot uncontrolable blast of emotion has really been quite annoying. My good friend likes to tell me it's why I am an artist. I am a sponge that soaks up all the *crud*. Even stories on the news will get me for days. This emotional response does no one any good-it improves nothing-it can get in the way. My sister is the opposite and has commented that sometimes she can't cry when she knows she 'should' or even when she wants to... So people like the OP and others on this thread have the real gift and that is strength, courage, self control. You see the need and that's what you act on not the emotion. bc4ever said Not falling apart IS being strong. Thank God for people like you. I can imagine why you get anxiety attacks b/c you are strong--it's a tall order isn't it. With my trials with Shep and some shelter volunteering I have come to learn, I need to work where my talents are not neccessarily where I want to be within rescue work. I want to be with the dogs-where they need exercise grooming, time, affection, interaction and socialization--at the shelter. But all I do is cry, choke back my utter sadness and try to talk myself that 'its all good' and then I will lay awake thinking about them all and then the anger comes in... its exhausting. I get so frustrated with myself. Now I know, I really see emotions as tools and as 'talents'. So I help with fundraising, donations and whatever else I can do that isn't at the actual shelter. Its wimpy but its something. Anyone who does rescue, down in the trenches with all that rescues involves, are truly my heroes. OK so I can't see how anyone can be critical b/c someone is crying or not crying! Of course people deal with stuff their own way. To me NOT crying and falling apart only helps said situation and to think that b/c a person isn't publicly displaying grief doesn't mean they don't feel it, is pretty ridiculous... as if there are only 2 ways to react. To me, when I see people being strong, still able to smile and function in the face of really sad things, thats a great gift. The things that Tea listed...I can't imagine working with these situations and the world wouldn't survive without you.

See I know I need to let go of this idea of pinning what this was but I have to wonder if HGE is really what was going on b/c from what I've read it's usually small, younger dogs and it actually sounds much worse than what Curly was exhibiting and also the subsequent treatment. Maybe we just got lucky. Anyway sounds like Chili's ordeal was just terrifying and all hail the vet's and drugs that heal our pooches.

Thanks-good thing you had the instinct to take your pup in. I don't know what would've happened had the metro and saline not been done right when the blood began. You know how bright these guys are and just kept looking at me like, 'sorry I soiled the house, i'm scared, i feel sick, i'm worried...' He's still looking at me just kinda sad. One of the symptoms of the HGE is depression and I find that interesting as well. Currently he's barking like a mad man at the recycling guys so...thing are definetly on the mend. I can hear it.

Thanks for the well wishes. Curly is almost back to normal. YAY!!! He's mostly depressed, moving slowly now but I think the lethergy is lifting. It is taking a long time to bounce back from it. I wish I just knew what they both caught. Is it in the yard, in some rabbit poo, osprrey poo, (delicasies apparently) in the dirt clods Curly likes to play with, in the puddles he'll lap up? Then I wondered if it wasn't from the Chesapeake Bay as Curly went swimming 2 days prior. Blastoff I wonder what's going around in Texas? I think both dogs got the same thing, but since Curly's gut is really sensitive his turned into HGE. And I am making that up b/c the vet and web seem to say it can be anything from bacteria, to fungal, viral etc-the idiopathic thing makes me nuts. OH and also my husband fed them old chicken. The reason is that he ate it the day before and was said it was "alright". After he told me that, the subsequent 'converstaion' involved a few sentences followed by exclamtion points. Shep is like a little tank healthwise which is a big blessing in more ways than one! The metronidazole kicked in right away-pretty powerful stuff. Well best to all your pooches and I sure hope all of them escape ever getting this. thanks again- kim

Sunday nite both dogs became quite ill with diarrhea. I began the rice regimin and Kaopectate (from Red Cross Pet First Aid). Shep thank god recovered-so far. Curly's continued and when the blood appeared, we went to the vet. The dx was that this is common but the cause is too vast to pinpoint and a scrip for metronidazole and Pepcid AC was given. Then we got home, and he drank and drank water and then puked and puked and more blood and then only blood and then blood in the vomit. He was so scared. He wouldn't come inside the house. I put his lead on and he'd just lay down. He was miserable. He hid in the lillies. He was so ill. So 3 hours later off the ER. The ER vet basically said the same rx but called it Hemmoragic GastroEnteritis. He gave him a sub-cu saline shot and pepcid shot. I had managed to get the metro pill in him prior to the visit. So today, no more episodes but he's so so listless, weak and really depressed. He's been eating and drinking little bits. He's been this way all day and I'm so worried. I'm not a great communicator and it seems everytime I have a concern the vet is so...just laid back about it all. I always feel like I am overeacting. I hate that. I know he sees things way worse but my dog is so ill!! Also all the on-line info is totally not in line with what either vet dx'd or rx'd. If he's not perked up by tomorrow he will go back in. Anyway I was wondering if anyone has dealt with this and if so what your experience has been. Good thoughts for Curl please. thanks

ditto on all the above Maybe a new trainer? Where are you located? Click to calm is a great book and there's also a forum to ask questions to the author and many others and all behaviour topics. I just ordered Control Unleashed and joined her list too. I think having the list serves are such a bonus. Have hope! Lots of it for your baby is young. kim

I remember people saying, you've got one, your walking and feeding ANYWAY so what's another one? Well it's double the work!! Lesson #6798. But I always want to get a puppy b/c I've never had one. It wasn't until I helped with a "rescue"-someone posted on my local Freecycle 'puppies'. So I went with a few folks from the local HS and that was the first time I had ever even held a puppy. I melted. I felt ill when I had to get out of the car and part with it. It looked like a bear. 8 weeks old and so so tiny. It was 1/2 chow and beagle x...so sweet. That feeling was intense. I used to be a dog walker at the HS kennel and it's true they appreciate and absorb the attention. Anything. A brushing, or a message and just a good run...some just like to be still and be pet. I stopped when the 2nd dog was added b/c I had guilt, if was there walking dogs, I should be working on my own dogs. So now I do other stuff, but it's nothing like giving those shelter dogs the real treat of the human bond. It was very gratifying...tough and tears were often shed, but I miss it. thanks for you guys who help with rescue.

It wasn't until last year I found the undercoat rake. Curly was itching and boom he got a hot spot. For years I bragged that Curly didn't shed that much...well turns out the slicker I had been using for 4+ years wasn't doing the job. I googled hot spots and read about damp undercoats being a culprit. That day he had spent a lot of time in his stock tank (pool) in and out and I kinda dried him but not well enough. I purchased the rake and after he was all better (domeboro powder and peroxide fixed him) I began raking...and found an entire other dog I didn't know existed. It was this fine, kinda fuzzyish fur and lots of it. Both dogs tolerate the grooming but with both it involves administering food. Let's make deal time.

Wow how amazing is that? And you have quite a beautiful friend. Continued happiness to you both!! That pic needs some really great song to go with it... like "You're My Best Friend" by Queen

repost Its funny when you can say, "Maybe its the Irish in me" and I know exactly what your talking about. When I say, "Maybe its the Sicilian in me" people also seem to know what I'm talking about!! or say, 'ahhhhhhhhhhhh', like they get it. As if it explains everything...that's always cracks me up. (yes stereotypes are sometimes funny) The Sicilian in me just enjoys feeding my dogs bowls of homemade food and I tell them "mangiare tutto Curlito and Sheppada!" ...I digress again.

....that what I MEANT to say! Great wisdom in those words.

I empathasize with you. I have had 1 dog, my first dog I had to 'train' for 6 years and my 2nd dog, with aggression issues and I still feel so new. Both are my current dogs. I have come to learn that training is a talent and some are better than others or it just takes more time (for ME not you OP!) Then you throw in this remarkable fabulous breed and it can be really trying... My dogs trigger and lead a lot of emotion in me. Let's see: -anger-they disobey and yep it feels intentional but then quickly I hear much of what is said above -they arn't out to do this, its my fault, need to work on something else etc. When I loose my cool, both dogs just looks at me like I am crazy and at times I'd have to agree. When I get angry it shifts from them quickly to me. Then I come and post and ask for advice -guilt-underutilized BC who could've been a superstar and whose progress was hijacked by the aggressive Aussie's issues who I can't seem to fix=a large bowl of frustration at times. Then there's the big pot of joy. Really. Which is a strong emotion too. Although I can say, I am not so 'talented' in the dog training world, these two dogs and a very very very sensitive BC who reads ME like a book, have opened up a world I didn't even know exisited. Sometimes I think I am just so so so wrapped up in them it may be unnatural altho it doesn't feel like it. About Dalesred's comment...I think some people kind of disregard the past as being a part of the present but I don't. Since I was a kid I had a very sick mom. 4 cancers AND she is still with us! Then, she got a dx of Hep C from one of the many surgeries she's had. She felt so defeated. We all did. After escaping all these huge, scary, uncertain situations and surviving cancer, she gets this Hep C-which you can't cure or remove or radiate out. All my life I tried to fix, cure , ease, and help her and now I was out of moves. I got Shep that same week. I think b/c I moved onto the next thing I could save. Its like a habit almost. Obviously I did not get him b/c I thought I was a good trainer. He was suffering in front of my face, across the street from me. SO I digress, but I wanted to support was Dalesred said. I think in reflecting on your own reaction to things, particularly things that are difficult, some nuggets of self understanding can emerge. Aren't you lives kind of inter-woven with your dogs? The dogs to me have become a mirror, a reflection for so much more then I would ever have imagined. They've been my teachers. I like to think about this stuff b/c to me dogs are so much more than pets, athletes, workers, soft things or whatever....they've got a wealth of gifts that I don't think any human could give. One more thing, I think to train yourself not to get angry or upset is part of the process of dog training. That's something ya don't hear about much. Thanks for posting this thread.

Has Solo always been on ami and fluoxetine combined from the beginning of treatment? Thanks

Yes yes and yes. This backsliding seems to be the way it goes. And man is it so so frustrating. It can make me feel so defeated...particularly if its bad, like a snap or nip or..a bite. I've done so much reflecting on this particular part of rehabing an aggressive dog that I am sure to most it would be quite nauseating but it has been the journey of a lifetime with so many damn lessons learned. LIKE, there will be not so good days and it does require getting back in the trenches and starting all over. I have to keep reminding myself that backsliding is to be expected and for a dog to be "done" or "cured" simply isn't realistic. Seems tho, they come back much faster each time. So many folks have helped me in my many panic posts b/c I was certain the world was ending that I just want to say ---hang in there. Its not a permanent regression. You sound commited. I wish I could lay out a plan on what to do specifically. The usual drill is to see if you could figure out the trigger(s) and then proceed from there...with desensitizing etc. You are probably familiar with all that already.

We use Alprazolam with no side effects. We use a lot actually (can't recall the mgs right now) and it is administered and hour before and then more half hour before. The doses we give are for severe anxiety and aggression/biting. It makes him wobbly but he can still react. We tried Diazapam which didn't even phase him. I almost didn't write anything b/c 1) my dog is a special case and don't know if other dogs, at high doses would have the same drive and 2) I didn't address the amitriptyline but I am really curious about that option and am so glad you posted about it. Sometimes I think when Shep starts feeling "relaxed" from the alprazolam he almost seems more alert/suspicious b/c I only give it for vets. So if there's a drug they take all the time like amitriptyline and it helped your dogs at the vet, maybe it's worth it as opposed to dosing just before the event. I dunno---just guessing. What happens to your dogs at the vet? Thanks.

I do not like my Dyson Animal-for the $500 spent on it. That said, it is great on rugs but on bare floors there's a fan that blows out from the side and it blows the hairs away from the machine in to tumbleweed that you just end up either chasing around with the vacuum, as it keeps rolling away or I just stop and pick it up.

Would you elaborate on the above idea? Are you using any commands at all when you play hide and seek or is it just all fun? If you could explain a bit more that would be awesome. Thanks~!

Oh no...I'm one of the dumbasses. I was afraid of that. As the neighbors walk "the gauntlet" as it IS referred to, past my humble .38 acres situated on the corner, where the "good dogs" run free off lead on the other side of the fence, where the kiddies come yelling by on bikes, folks just tryin' to get a little exercise in, or get their mail...and there goes both my dogs barking at the top of their lungs. Curly will eventually stop but Shep continues the ear shattering show, and lunging etc. There is no recall when they get to this point. We are the yard that everyone hates to pass. And, I felt so great when my neighbor said, "IF that dog ever hurts one of my kids I will kill it" all the while smiling. That was a good day. I am not "proud" of myself/the dogs for it being this way, but not all of us dumbasses have perfect situations. I bet some of the dumbasses don't even know they are so deemed as such... ****It really sucks that the uber-dumbasses (which I would not place myself in this catagory as my biter doesn't go anywhere, ever) would let their biting/aggressive dogs off lead. They need to be corrected. So on behalf of the bad dogs and bad owners, we don't mean to be this way and we are really sorry and we're working on it!! (spoken with that sound of falling down a well) Oh and I would love another house too

I understand the confidence issue and fully agree...and I certainly understand it transmitting to Shep. I believe if I had a firm grip on what works best with him naturally I'd feel stronger. He needs leadership. He is better with my husband, but my husband = play, not work. Prior to being kicked out of our kennel, one of the handlers never had one problem with Shep. Its b/c this guy is all things dog and he has the utmost confidence. I know for a fact that Shep would be fabulous and probably all but cured if he had landed a life with someone with experience, like Dr Overall. My friend actually said that I was like Shep...nervous and reactive and it simultaneously made me laugh and think b/c its true. It's almost bizarre that we ended up together. I now know it takes an experienced person to really rehab a dog like Shep successfully but we'll keep on going for as long as we can. I think I made myself out to be a total flake which I am not. However, I do get nervous when we attempt to bring him places and this is precisely where I need to be really confident. Facts are tho, he might bite. His display is quite the show as he has a great capacity to get vertical. He's a liability. He already has one police record. Then there's the "experts" and some are lunatics, which after a while you feel like you can't trust that anyone really knows what they are talking about and all the theories are just that and it's up to me at the end of the day. I know that. Then add me, "in progress" training-wise and it's damn difficult at times. I'm up for the challenge. I just want to succeed. I am not a horn tooter but I do take pride in the distance we've come. I get so elated after having people over the house, Sheps happy as a clam and everyone comments on hoew much he has changed. Curly, is just a great dog so other than a few training glitches we're ok.\ As far as falling for the Leash Collar woman, I am a SUCKER. I purchased a truckload of rocks for my driveway from a guy who said "a neighbor had ordered too much" so he would sell me the excess for 1/2 price....NOT. I'd love to attend a Jack Knox clinic. I'll look into to it. Thanks so much for the suggestion.