Post and Rail

I believe Addison's will. Addison's is difficult to diagnose because the symptoms can mimic so many other problems. Just something to look into if your friends are confident their dog wasn't exposted to AF.

Addison's Disease. We had a pup diagnosed with antifreeze poisoning and we knew she hadn't been near any antifreeze. It turned out to be Addison's.

I can see very easily where outsiders (newcomers) would feel that it is "cliquey" and an fact, in some instances, it truly is. But by and large, I've found the trialing community (both U.S. and Canada) to be open and friendly. Yes, it took quite some time, and in the beginning I spent a lot of time just listening and taking things in rather than jousting with the "in" crowd, but over time, as people came to recognize me, this changed. Give it some time and don't be discouraged. There will always be people you don't care to hang out with, but you also have that in other aspects of your life. Not many are truly shunned......unless they allow their dogs to bark uncontrollably edited to add: And if you don't have thick skin to begin with, you'll develop it if you stick around long enough. Usually the trials that are the most fun are those where no one is immune.........

A., Right, I agree, but what would be the point? It's entirely possible that I'm missing something, but is there any practical reason to do it, even if you could?

There really is no reason to register another breed with the ABCA unless someone was trying to prove a point. I have a spayed, unregistered Border Collie bitch that people frequently tell me I should ROM..... until they learn she is spayed and that there is no practical advantage to doing so. The same would go for any other breed or any altered border collie. If registration was a requirement for running - especially in National Finals - I'd ROM her, but as it stands there's no reason to unless I simply wanted a piece of paper. I go to about 20 trials a year plus visit a fair number of ranches and have yet to see a Kelpie that was trained to the standard that I think would merit ROM. There may be a few, but I think they are the very rare exception, and not the rule. In fact, I've never seen a kelpie run an open class. They're usually in Open Ranch or Novice, and I suspect there's a reason for that. P.R.

One of the Vets on the board may be able to expand on this, but couldn't those symptoms be Canine Addison's? I may be mixed up, but the description of it happening after flyball tournaments reminds me of how Addisons symptoms are often exaggerated by stress (travel, hard work, etc). Just a thought, and I apologize if I'm way off, but something here rings a bell with me and it might be worth looking into. It is very difficult to diagnose because there are so many symptoms that could also be something else. P.R.

I believe this is true. My old (as in aged and retiring), trusted vet told me *in confidence* that spaying can add to weight gain but that most vets won't tell clients that because they'd rather see a fat dog than more unwanted puppies. I agree on both counts but would add that exercise and diet easily counteract the minimal weight gain caused by spaying. Most people simply feed too much and exercise too little. PR

Just as a point of reference, the dog in the photo I posted above stands 20" at the shoulder and weighs 37 pounds.

I agree with Bill 100%. In fact, all of the photos posted previously in this thread show overweight dogs in my opinion. Of all the medical concerns, I worry most about what I would be doing to their joints if I allowed them to carry too much weight. Here's a pic of how - in my opinion - a border collie should look. This dog happens to be smooth coated, but all of our 8 are in roughly this shape - including an 11 year-old and two spayed bitches. PR

Hang Tough, Charlie. You should demand to know how much money is at stake and make your cut worthwhile: (A free clinic comes to mind......).

If CGT has collge-aged children my assessment is that he got started young, indeed. How about it Charlie? You're not gonna let these idle minds age you, are you?

Thanks for the clarification, Denise. PR

I don't think working ability would positively effect it's right to registration. A conformation champion is a conformation champion - even in the unlikely case that it met the requirements to ROM. It's a highly unlikely scenario, anyway. To my knowledge there have been only four dogs registered on merit and the chances that a conformation champion could attain that status seem miniscule, at best.

I've heard that unless you have the surgery done at a young(er) age that the dog is no more likely to be better off - plus you've taken the surgical/anaesthesia risk. I agree with Bill. Do a TON of research and get at least one more opinion. I have no first-hand experience, though....... PR

.....or families, I suppose. What's so intoxicating about this argument is that we (I) can make a difference. For me, that includes NOT breeding (there are too many good dogs out there already) and opposing much of which the AKC represents. I know many people who breed for the right reasons and avoid those who breed out of greed.

I'm not attacking, so please don't interpret this observation as such, but I think the quoted paragraph above perhaps sheds some light on where Cholla is coming from (pardon the sentence-ending preposition). Cholla, has your aim in these discussions been not to defend the AKC but rather to obliquely attack the herding community? It's an honest question because I, frankly, have been having difficulty discerning your position. It seems that you sometimes state your disdain for the AKC concurrent with your defending them - coupled with an occasional barb toward the herding community. I may be alone in my inability to interpret(which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest) but if you could boil it down this uneducated bumpkin who would be grateful.

Dogs are pack animals and until worriedmom establishes clearly to this dog that she is the leader of the pack the problem will continue. It seems to me that some of the advice given on this thread is backwards. First people suggested checking for something physical, then for something behavioural. The best way to eliminate the physical cause was to establish that it is, in-fact, something behavioural. And the best way to do that is to let this dog know - RIGHT NOW - that you are the leader and if she steps out of line there are serious consequences. You can talk to your dog, go to a behaviorist, and worry about some physical cause all you want. Until you establish a solid pecking order all you are doing is wasting time and money. The little so-and-so needs to understand that she is at the bottom of the household totem pole.

Hector is dead-on here. If one of my dogs growled at me they'd be pinned to the floor with me breathing down the muzzle before the growl ended. You probably have not established yourself as Alpha, but need to do so in a hurry if you don't want this to become a problem. PR

The argument is not about specific looks and it wouldn't slow anything. People are still breeding to the standard of a conformation judge rather than to the standard of herding ability. That's what the argument is about. Just my opinion. PR

Honestly, from what I see at many trials, it more about who's got the "bad-assed" fearless dog who'll get kicked and keep going. I honestly doubt that the ranchers I see trialing treat their cattle at home the way they treat cattle at a trial (note - I do not mean "all" cattle trialers) It sort of reminds me of the tricked-out 4x4s we see cruising the roads. They're not terribly practical but they look neat and turn heads. PR

I won't - but I'm not going to get in a circular argument because you and I can both spin this to meet our needs. All I ask is that if you have truly constructive criticism - specific to the guidelines generously presented - please review the document and pass it along. PR

Just out of curiosity....... Amy offered to send the guidelines to anyone who asked...... I asked, received them, and sent my comments and wonder if you have read them? This is not the only forum in which comments were requested. Your comment "that in anything we do, there are those that want to get the job done and those that want to get it done a certain very specific way and that someone will decide when it is so: Judged" is well stated and duly noted, but I shudder at the thought that we're being compared to the H&J world as it is today. Let me offer you an example. I was recently watching a big cattle trial and guess who made (in my opinion) the best showing? A dog who had never been on cattle - EVER! - but the handler and dog knew stock and handled them correctly, quietly, and efficiently. Did they win, NO, but I'll bet my best dog that most of the ranchers in the crowd would choose that dog and handler over the lip-tearing dog that won even though he was 15 seconds slower. PR

It is not a show - Hopefully, people make breeding and purchasing decisions based on what should be as reasonable an approximation of real work as can be achieved in a repeatable format. It sounds to me as though - from your perspective - this is merely sport. It is not merely a sport and sound breeding decisions based on performance is what made the BC a great dog. I apologize if I've misinterpreted your comments, but I think you're off-base. PR

I fail to see where Bill F. was condescending. He offered a real-life example of a technique that has worked for him in the past with which Melanie disagrees. I know that in our "politically-correct, feel-good, everybody's opinion is valid" world that we're all supposed to phrase things just-so so we don't offend......... But in my world, disagreement does not equal condescention. To me, correcting someone's spelling when the meaning was perfectly evident and the format was neither a scholarly paper nor a business document seems more condescending than offering a valid, well-placed dissenting example. P&R (Who recognizes that this post contains at least one run-on sentence)