River

Hi Pixie, That picture was taken yesterday he is 5 months and quite big really (37lbs). A load of toys arrived from an ebay auction and he was just overjoyed. (Great way to buy toys, as he rips them up in no time at all..see the picture thread, I got all those toys for $24!) Glad to know, you are feeling more confident!Have you tried any clicker training with Rosie ?

Pixie Is this the wild eyed look you are talking about LOL (No I didnt photoshop this...Toys make him NUTS!)

Hi again You said: For example she has recently started to stand in the middle of the lounge, crouched low on her front legs with her bum and tail up in the air and started to bark whilst jumping forward slightly, with her eyes looking rather wild. What's all this about? Is she wanting to just play or what!! Sounds like a typical excited play bow to me, full of puppy exuberance:D She sounds like a happy dog! I certainly didnt invent walking backwards although my neighbours may think I did You have a lovely attitude and the sense of humor required for a BC, I am sure you and Rosie will be inseperable soon.

Hi Pixie, When you take her for a walk, when she pulls does she still get where she wants to go ? If my pup (5 months 37lbs) pulls I walk backwards until he comes to my side and the leash is slack. This takes oodles of patience to begin with, walks take forever! But well worth it, he knows now slack lead and we move forward..tight lead and we are not going anywhere. Even dogs who are obedienced trained and do perfect heel work often think rules go out the window on a nice ramble. General walks are not the same enviroment as a controlled class situation and different rules apply. It would'nt be fair IMO to make a dog walk to heel constantly..but at the same time I dont wish to be dragged around like a puppet As for her attention, are you at home with her all day ? If you are constantly at her beck and call, ie she decides when to interact with you and play..she may not respect you or grow the desire to please you. I'd suggest at least an hr away from you, in a crate and quiet place before you begin to train and play with her. Always stop play and training before she has had enough, leave her wanting more and you may find her interest in you rises. Save some toys just for training, ie she never gets to run off with them and play strictly on her own with the special toy (the one she loves more than chicken), she needs to see you as the provider and ruler of all good things. When you train her, when she gets something right go crazy with praise, sound excited, tell her she is SO CLEVER, SO SMART be fun and giddy if you can..I have had friends who had rescue collies who were incredibly flat and disinterested, who would respond brilliantly to praise from me, because I get so excited and bouncy..they seem to switch on to excitement more than anything..luckily for me I can turn that on easily for dogs, because i truly am thrilled and do get excited by them getting it right Main thing is with a BC who isnt born to please ( I have met a few) establish who the boss is early on, without aggression and make training fun. "Yippeeeeeeeee" when they get it right can work wonders. Good luck.

LOL I didnt write it but, Id assume it is to with the holistic view on illness/ injury. That at the time of injury there is physical suffering which would cause emotional suffering and the two become connected and can be stored in different locations. This quote was about people, but as dogs are emotional creatures too..who knows. Not saying any of this is fact, just how I interpet it. Although if you read "tellington touch" (think that was what is was called, I read it many years ago..it does make some sense.

Hi Deafbat Sorry to hear what you witnessed yesterday, but I am sure the owner of the poodle was glad you were there offering support and hugs. The main belief I have heard for arnica is that it reduces bruising: "The most common remedy used for muscle trauma is Arnica montana. Arnica is an herb that can be used topically as a cream on specific areas of bruising and pain. As a homeopathic remedy, Arnica can be taken internally, in pellet form, to work more deeply on the trauma that is held in the muscles. Arnica works by improving circulation and reducing both emotional and physical trauma in the muscles."

Best of luck deafbat. One of my first dog trainers (very experienced agilty person and kennel owner had dogs all his life in his late 50's) always insisted on giving our dogs arnica if they appeared to of bruised or pulled a muscle/ ligament when we were agility training. Whether it worked or if they naturally healed fast I dont know..maybe AKdogdoc can advise.

Aww dont worry about it, where there is passion there will be disagreements. We are all clearly passionate about our dogs and handling. I love reading everyones opinions even when they differ from my own.

I feel the "Alpha roll" carried out gently is a very effective reprimand for grevious bad behaviour ie biting people or fighting other dogs. Personally I would never scruff/shake a dog, this does not mean I think it is wrong, just wrong for the dogs I have owned and my style of handling. We all know what works for us with our individual dogs and will reap what we sow. Advising a novice dog handler is tough, because they may misinterpret what we mean and hurt the dog. Basically I would suggest unless you are confident and comfortable with the roll, dont use it. Personally I try and be a gentle firm leader and realise that if my dog is not doing what I want, it is my failing not his, I have to find another way to communicate what I expect from him. I use the alpha roll exclusively for some person or dog is going to get hurt and you will stop that behaviour this second. In the few times I have used it with 2 out of 4 BC's I have owned, it had the desired effect. The biting stopped and the dogs resumed their usual confident happy demeanor within a few minutes. I would not use the alpha roll on a submissive, fearful, sensitive dog ever.

Ahh the curse of the social butterfly LOL My pup is 20 weeks and I have developed the same problem. If he was offleash and he saw another dog he just bolts! It doesnt help that every dogs owner he has run to has called "puppy puppy puppy" every bloomin time and fussed and loved him, upon his arrival. (he is adoreable I cant blame them either) I have never had this before with my previous collies. To start with if I ran the other way he high tailed it with me and I treated and fussed him for following, but now his confidence has developed he doesnt give a fig if I run away. Although If I dont follow he comes back to me eventually and I have to reward him for that (resisting the urge to tell him bad dog LOL). Anyway I have had him on a line (50m) for a week now, I practise lots of recalls and I am unsure when I will trust him off again..maybe a month and I will try again. He is rock solid in the house, garden, and the park when there is no dog owner around..but he just adores everyone and every dog, its lovely he is such confident pup (now) but frustrating too.

I really think this tatic totally depends on the dogs disposition and the owners. It's not like slam dunking a basketball, done gently and firmly on a dog with a tough confident attitude my experience it has been VERY effective, creating no problems at all. The important things is NOT to hurt or terrify the dog..so if it is done in temper I can see it having adverse effects.It is dog language, that pups do instinctively understand..when an adult dog reprimands a pup this way he doesnt shake it or slam it against the floor and niether should we. Its a gentle roll and a firm pin..causing no stress. Patricia Mconnel stated in the other end of her leash she pinned her great pyrenesse ? when choosing her as a pup to see how dominant she was. IMO thats not necessary with a BC pup..its pretty obvious watching a litter of pups who is sassy, quiet, shy etc and if people found someone expierenced to help them choose a pup to fit their lifestyle I really think there would be less rescue cases and if breeders weighed up owners temperaments and needs to their pups rather than allowing people to choose which pup is prettiest. I used the roll/pin/ growl twice on Gil at 18 weeks because he was starting to hurt me and nothing else was working..since then "no bites" is enough to remind him to be gentle, because I do play rough and tumble with him. Everyone he meets remarks on what a wonderful temperament he has and I can guarantee I have not caused him any emotional problems. He is one of the most well balanced Border collies pups I have ever known. I had one BC who was so sensitive that a soft "no" would devastate her, because she lived to please ( I had to give her a love and reassure her she was a good girl, if I ever reprimanded the others infront of her)..Gil is my 4th BC and they are all so different and I would suggest Princess Jenni gets some proffesional help...this really needs sorting out before she is an adult. Without experience of the breed it would be hard to evaluate her for yourself from books and what we all write to you. Is there a Border collie rescue place in your area ? Most rescue places are happy to help novice owners.

Thanks for sharing JVW, so there is hope for Gil yet ..19 weeks today. Should I squeeze him tight when I hug him

Jvw what age did your little fellow have surgery ?

Hi again AK I had nice talk with Gil over coffee this morning. The reason Finn grew so big is because you started him on cigerates not cigars! Gil has agreed not to grow over 50lbs on the following terms: 1 box of fine Havana cigars(a day) 1 bottle of Jim bean (monthly) 3 walks a day (where balls and frisbees must be thrown constantly) 1 lazy boy recliner and a remote To be taught 1 new trick every week and his final request 3 ducks and chicken to round up (originally he wanted a herd of cows but we negotiated) Okay back to being serious ;)I dont know if Fin's behaviour is typical or not. My first BC was a male and while he was harder to house train than my bitches as a puppy, we only ever went through that once. He never humped anyone or anything in the house, never ran off, was always attentive, he marked in the house twice when I was away on business and my husband was looking after the gang. Which I put down to him trying to be the leader (and feeling insecure) while I was away (he knew I was the only one allowed to mark the furniture ) He was never neutered because I wanted a pup sired by him, as did many agility people. He was always a pleasure to have around, he did have a slight guard instinct that I am not sure he would of had if he was neutered but this meant I felt safe to walk anywhere with him on my own at anytime. He didnt guard the house, toys or objects but he was protective of me. Oh and I am from Lincoln on the east coast of the UK originally.

Hi AK dog doc Thanks for your reply. He said six litters from this pair and sounded really upset when he called me back after checking the other male pups, which he has kept. The bitch was 6 years old and seemed a bright healthy happy dog. Both parents trace back to some scottish lines through some big sheep worker in the states. (Being a brit and not knowing the trialing scene, I cant remember who)So I assumed they were well bred and both parents and the pups looked great,were both confident and friendly. The reason I said I would wait until he was a year old, could be based on false information (gotta love the net.) I read that testosterone actually triggers the dog to stop growing and if you neuter them too early, they grow bigger than they would of. Gil is 32.4lbs at 19 weeks and I didnt want to affect his natural size (ie end up with Digby the collie). Is this more old wives tales I have read on the net ? Gil does have a wonderful nature esp considering he wasnt socialized until I got him at 15 weeks. I thought the same as you that maybe people have not realised this is hereditary and didnt get back to the breeder. He sounded genuinely shocked, but I trust everyone..so who knows.

Damn! My little fellow has cryptorchidism, or likely has no sign of either of his "jewels" at almost 19 weeks The vet said give him another month, but I will give him a year to mature before the surgery. I rang the breeder today to tell him and he has 2 other male pups left from the litter and he went to check them. Theirs havent dropped either! Is this usual for all 3 males in a litter to be affected. The breeder said this is the 6th litter from the pair and I am the first person to call and say there is a problem.. *baffled*

Hi again, INU thanks for digging up the old links for me, much appreciated. AK thanks so much for taking the time to explain again. My vet recommended only giving the during mosquito season here in madison WI and said I had no need to give him protection until March and then after his first year a blood test each year. It seemed a little bit daft to me, if these products are safe why take the risk and have to have his blood taken every year. So thanks I will definately start him on something next week and give it 12 months a year(not heart gard) but undecided on the others I need to go back through the other thread and go with the majority.

Hi Gil is my first dog I have owned since I came to the US. Heart worms were not a problem in the UK and so I have no experience as to what to give him and how often. My vet said as long as he starts something before he is 6 months and not to worry. Well he is my Baby LOL (Gil not the vet) and I do worry. I read up on these heart wormers and the fact they say safe for "collies" made me suspicious! Apparently there is something toxic, that collies are more susceptible to than other breeds, which can cause liver failure. So my question is what are you using on your collies and do you treat all year or just mosquito season ? Anyone had any problems..I know I have to protect him against this..I just want to take the safest option. Thanks in Advance.

Loved this! No offence to the poster who suggested it, but that would freak alot of collies out who are often sound sensitive anyway.

Hmm play biting and real biting. I have only ever seen one young pup who really meant it. Unfortunately it was a pup my sister chose from a litter She brought him to my house at 7 weeks and we walked him out to go to the toilet. My 12 year old doberman was eating her dinner and he just went for her...snarling, growling, snapping really ferocious..my dog backed away from her dinner for him! I grabbed his scruff and told him no and took him away from it and called my dog back to her dinner. We went back in the house and my ex husbands coffee cup was on the floor, he went to it and my ex said NO..and off he went again snarling and snapping.My ex grabbed the dog the pup drew blood on his wrist! I had never seen a pup behave so badly. She lived a few hrs away from me and I told her to enrol him at puppy class...he bit the instructor who told her not to come to anymore classes! He grew up into a danger with other dogs... eventually she couldnt cope with him and asked me to take him (because he did listen to me to some degree...I did pin him to the ground as an adult for attacking my doberman again!) He knew I wouldnt take his crap! He did however bite my sister on the face and she was way too soft on such a dominant dog..they were not at all well matched! I couldnt take him for fear of what he would do to my dogs ( had 3 bc and my rescue dobie), none of my dogs were dominant and I didnt want them terrorized by him. He bit 2 of the collies too..no injuries I was on him in a flash. (She told me he was playing nicely with other dogs at the park and I gave him a chance with mine, to my regret) But I did find a no kill centre for him and told him of *all* of his problems. They found a home for him on a large farm with no other dogs or kids and he and his new owners got along fine. My sister was heart broken and it is one of the hardest things I ever had to do. Because something wasnt wired right with him, it wasnt his fault..he needed an experienced dog handler who wasnt afraid of him and he did get that eventually. There was no mistaking the biting as play biting from day one, he meant it! His eyes were a hard stare and he bared all his teeth like an adult dog going into a fight at 7 weeks!. I truly hope Mollie doesnt mean it, but I am sure you do know if she is menacing. From what you said it sounds to me like she might mean it and it is fear based. In my opinion she really needs a leader...its a stressful life for a dog thinking she has to be the top. Clamp down on her, it really is the kindest thing in the long term.

Gosh you really have your hands full there. My pup 18 weeks was with his brothers until 15 weeks and was used to playing with teeth! I also tried the ouch and cry thing that worked with my previous collies at 7 weeks (no nips after a few days). But with Gil he just doesnt calm down the same and thinks a really good game involves a bit of play biting! I flicked his nose...he wasnt at all impressed but would come back at me with another nip after the intial "Hey! what was that for?" No, No, NO turn away, ignore him..if really excited he would just try and nip my leg..(no curling his lips, or wrinkling his snout, or meaness in it...he just seems a hooligan and is teething too. In the end Id had enough and he is 31 lbs and his new teeth are sharp! So I grabbed the scruff of his neck and rolled him to the floor on his back (gently but firmly) and growled in his face. He turns away and wont give me eye contact and when I let go he grovels and we go back to playing. No hard feelings on either part. If you try this, it sounds like your pup means it! I agree with the person who said wear gloves, if she wriggles and kicks off apply pressure to her chest..until she stops kicking and fighting. I dont agree with trainers who slam dogs on their backs, there is no need to hurt them at all..you can show your strength without hurting her. Use even pressure as you roll her over and the same when you place a hand over her chest. Practise a really deep growl..low and quiet is very threatening and she will know she went too far. Gil has is finally realising thats not the way to play with humans..but it was frustrating for a while. If noones suggestions work, I would find an animal behavourist who specialises in agression. Patricia B Mcconnell who wrote "The other end of the leash" (great book) would have some advice I am sure. She has a web site: Patricia Mconnell

Hi and thankyou, I honestly asked because I wanted honest opinions..else why would I ask at all You gave me alot to think about and it had never occured to me young inexperienced dogs would terrorize sheep I think I should hold off on this until I am in a situation where I could afford the finanicial expenses this would inccur. (ie sheep therapy... aw hole flock thats going to be pricey!) Although the idea of working on a sheep farm for rewards sounds great, I will look into that around this area. I didnt want him to chase a few sheep for laughs..I want him working happily under control, using his brain and agility. Thanks everyone for sharing their views and experience...I shall let you know if any farmer takes us under their wing and if not I am thinking of joining a tracking class to keep him busy He is mad about tracking in the snow at the moment.

Hi people, Where does a person learn to work sheep as a total starter ? Are there places that will train people and their dogs, when there is no chance of owning our own sheep ? I have done agility and obedience and a little fly ball..but have always marveled at collies working what they were bred for. Does anyone feel it would be wrong to fuel a dogs desire to herd, if he couldnt work sheep daily ? My pup is just 17 weeks old and laid back as collies go ..he is going to be too heavey (in my opinion) for agility and I am thinking what else he might enjoy.

Have you considered a Blue merle ? *runs for cover as you yell "WHITE" at me* I dont know the standard in the states, but I attended agility shows for years in england with typical classes of 500 runners, I never saw an all white collie..merles tended to have much more white and not being all black on the back would be cooler. This is my "Sky"

Hi I use this aromasalve For any bites, scratches, infections, sores, rashes etc. I know it is for horses but it works brilliantly on dogs and people too. It's really worth having in just incase, although its best to put a little lavender oil on it, to stop your dog licking it off. I have never seen anything heal a wound so fast. Unfortunately you will have to pay shipping from england..but I found it invaluable.