StillTerry

If you cannot trust your dog to not be aggressive on a leash to other dogs, how can you trust her not to be aggressive off leash? Breaking up dog fights can be hazardous to your health and the dogs' health. You leash may be the only control that you have to refrain her from attacking another dog. As long as your dog is on a leash and another unleashed dog gets in her face, you may not have any liablity. However, if she is running lose and grabs another "friendly" dog, you could easily have some liability......and more important you would probably feel pretty guilty for not controlling your dog.

It really does not matter what the reason is for her aggression toward other dogs. You must let her know that it is not acceptable behavior. You and your dog will both be happier since you will be able to go more places with friends and their dogs.

My sincerest apologies to AK Doc. Not a Freudian slip but just another of my senior moments. Was in a hurry when I ran spell check (or maybe a daze). Must have hit "change" versus "ignore" when the initials popped up. Darn, if I had half a brain, I would still be a half wit! Don't look for any encores. Just slinking off the boards for the night.

Although AKC Doc will need to confirm this, I have always been told that infected teeth could cause infection to the heart. It makes sense to me because people with heart problems and/or artificial valves need to take antibiotics prior and after dental work. Also had a friend whose dog got had an infected tooth and then got infection in the incision from the tooth removal ......and co-incidentally was diagnosed with a heart problem about a month later.

Barb, Your last post tells me that you also learned a lot from your first lesson. Your brain is headed in the right direction. Just wait until your dog drives the sheep in the right direction (direction that you want them to go) you will love it "herding" even more. Be careful, it is very addicting. P.S. A. may be fine to get herding advice from but watch it so that you don't pick up her vocabulary.

You may be beyond help.

Because of our little verbiage games, I am becoming paranoid about spelling and grammar. (Yeah A., it's bout time) Please delete the apostrophe from handler's. I did spell check. Never realized that trialing is really spelled with 2 ll.....trialling.

Like Eileen, I have never heard any of the whiners refer to the guidelines to substantiate their whining about the judging. I've been to many trials and heard a lot of whining. Strangely and thankfully, the good handlers that have good runs are not the complainers. They don't debate which "shade of brown." Points come off for errors. They are more concerned with their or their dog's error than the score. The whiners that I hear are generally people that go to very few trials or are in the novice classes. If you have a great dog, you know that there is always another day when you will come out on top. I could be wrong but the guidelines haven't changed the judging that I have seen at the big trials at all. I also believe the best judges are subjective. They have enough stock sense when the "unusual" happens to make the appropriate decision regarding the loss of points based on the circumstances at hand. My reference here is solely sheep trials since I know nothing about the cattle judging.(Many would claim that I don't know much about sheep trialling either) Any opinions that I have regarding the cattle judging would come from the handler's that I respect the most. None of them seem to be happy with the proposed cattle guidelines. Why have a judge if you do not allow him to judge. If you do not trust his integrity and ability, why did you hire him/her in the first place?

Sam, You are a gem. (note the 3 letter word that even us simpletons can understand) I don't remember hitting anything at your house when I was there last. Just took out that big trash barrel on the way to Tommy and Florence's trial. (They had it sitting to close to the road anyway.) I will be that big S word (that the A. Lady used to impress us) to anyone who will drive me over that BBBBBIIIIIIGGGGG bridge. I think that I need to be especially grovelling to Robin if she is going to fair Sher's as she may be a person not already driving a big rig across the BBBBBAAAAAAADDDDDDD bridge. I have no pride when it comes to getting across bridges. I think that it will be harder for me to find someone to drive me back across it on the way home! Thanks you A. for so sweetly reminding me two months in advance of the bridge. It gives me an entire 60 days to obsess. I will share my angst with you daily, dear friend, until you beg for relief.

Hey, just found this thread. I like Sam's definition of the first name. I also will add that a Big Hat is someone who when they do not make the top 20 at the National Finals that is the gossip of the day versus if they do make the top 20. You are not a Big Hat even if you make the the top 20 once or twice (could be luck), The Big Hats have all been in the top 20 at least 5 times. Denise, I think that different handlers' have different ideas of what a Big Hat is dependant upon how serious that they are and how many big trials that they attend. To some people a Big Hat is someone who may be big in their region because these people have never seen or read about the best. It is like the animal that is champion at a county fair and the owner mistakenly takes it to the Nationals. The owners are just big fish in a small pond. To the people in a small pond, they are big fish. I remember someone talking to a Big Hat that had just gotten back from the U.K. and the English Nationals. She went on and on about how much better the dogs and handlers were in in England. The Big Hat asked her if she had been to the National Finals, Meeker or the Bluegrass. She had not. As he so eloquently stated, "since you haven't seen the best run over here, how can you have that opinion." Good god A., you are over the top with your words. I will never be a sycophant where you are concerned. You still are better than "Webster's Word of the Day" from the internet. Sam, when you say Terry does everyone know who you mean? Since I am alway off topic or is it that I am always "off center". I believe there is a second tier of handlers that although not "Big Hats" are "Good Hats". They sometimes win trials and generally place.

Sam, Will you take my clinic entries for me? Johnny had decided it is cheaper to come to the clinic here versus flying me to the U.K. Put him at the top of the list. I have guaranteed him that he will have more International wins once he can properly pen. He will even be more competive at the World. A., Since you thought the Little Muskrat was initially thoughtful does than mean that Mick may become thoughtful versus being the bull in the china shop? Mark, Do you yell at anyone other than Sam for getting off topic. I'm off balance too and you never yelled at me. Are you trying to get in my good graces just so you can get into my penning clinic? Got to forwarn you, I don't play favorites. Just ask Johnny. Mickey is already taking his whistles........ Found remnants of my leather braided lanyard on the floor. He didn't swallow the wire or whistle though. Hope this doesn't become a $1500 lanyard like Sam's Maddie's unmentional chew. (Jim is now under strict instructions when I leave that he is not to take him out of the crate ) I think that the swallow tail and learning his whistles is enough pressure for one day. Housebreaking will have to wait until yet another day. Guess I will go out and break the ice out of all the watering pails. Instead of doing it at each watering, I just kept filling more pails (and not dumping them) Need to start counting down the days until I am out of Michigan's winter. When is the next full moon? I may be acting stranger than normal. Isn't that wonderful, A. is obsessed and I may be posessed. Robin and Sam will be soooooo glad to see us.

Mark and A, I didn't mean to wait until they were 3 or 4. Yes, I think that you do miss a window of opportunity if you wait too long. It is a fine line. Since I don't practice what I preach, going out today and work on the double lift with Mickey Maniac (he is now 10 weeks old )

FINALLY, we get to talk about working dogs. I have a couple theories about the age of starting dogs on sheep. You all (practicing for my Virginia visits) jump in and add your two cents. Generally, (and yes there are always your individual exceptions) but I do not think that it is the best interest of the dog for a novice handler to run it in the nurseries trying to qualify it for the finals. They invariably put too much pressure on the dog. Even fairly good handlers have been known to "burn out" a nursery dog. I can only think of a couple of nursery finals winners that went on and became great open dogs. The handler that quickly comes to mind that does not burn out his nursery dogs is Tommy Wilson so lets not use his dogs as examples because they are the exceptions. Lets debate this. I think that it would also make sense that green handlers should err on the side of caution and not try to start their dogs as young. Basically, because they are not as keyed in to when they put too much pressure or just have bad timing that can screw the dog's mind and then the dog's confidence. Remember I'm an old lady and my memory often is impaired with senior moments. Also you know that I have not started my own dogs as I am not the most agile handler around. Besides, do you think that I could get a dog solid on his flanks?But damn, I know my dogs are solid and still confident.......if they are still taking the right flanks after I've ran them for awhile. By the way, Robin, I also agree that the training depends on the dog. Besides, the generality of males maturing slower, there are also certain lines that mature slower. As previously stated, I don't start my own dogs. But the trainers that I have the most confidence in, tell me that they do not want to start the dogs really young. If they get a dog at say 14 to 16 months they can get that dog to the same stage in a couple of months. Whereas, if they started the same dog at say 9 months, at 16 months-18 months the dog would still be at the same stage in training but have had 6 months versus 2 months of training. I am not sure that I explained that well. These are just my late night ramblins. I have cabin fever. It is too cold for man nor beast to be outside for the last 4-5 days.

Border collies are bred for their herding ability. Color is not a consideration. People that breed for color really do not have good or true border collies. You may want to read some of the archives on color. If you think that a white border collie is worth more because it is rare, this is not true. In fact many handlers tend to shy away from the white color. Rather than base your decision on color, you may want to determine if a border collie would fit your lifestyle. You may also want to select a border collie that is compatable with you versus selecting for color.

Mark, God, your holiday cheer sounds sooooo cheerful. I need detailed directions to your house. When a grey van pulls in your drive, meet it with filled glass in hand. (Keep on the porch so that I don't run over you) I love your designated driver concept.

Make that chocolate. Damn Yankees can't spell or maybe Bill is right and none of us can spell. Great news about the Wee-Todded one. You will never need to invest in a treadmill with all of your youngsters.

What more could anyone in this world want than choclate and working dogs, unless it is a WEE bit of refreshment. What liquor goes best with chocolate? Or does that make it heaven? My husband went with me to pick up the exercise pen as he is no longer letting me drive his truck.

Hey Sam, Since it is the middle of the week, it can't be a real nasty trial week-end and your dogs'performance(s)was less than stellar or under 80 points. So could it be that your or your dogs did something less than brilliant in the presence of the Master? Make my day, tell me in graphic detail about your humbling experience. Will it make my top 10 list? I am going to take a wee 2 hour round trip to get my puppy exercise pens back from my oldest daughter. The children are quick to "borrow" stuff from Mom and Dad but slow to return it. My Christmas trees' can't take much more from Maniac Mick.

A working border collie can certainly tell the difference between a "herd" of ball and livestock. Besides the overuse of the word dominance, I get tired of attributing all quirky behavior such as herding balls, etc. to herding instinct. In fact the words "herding instinct" as used on these boards is generally an excuse for spoiled and bad behavior. Herding instinct in your border collie won't buy you a cup of coffee. A dog's personality when not working livestock does not correlate to its performance when it is working livestock. An unsocialized or shy dog can be a powerful dog on livestock. An aggressive dog can be a wimp on livestock. The amount of time that is spent on these boards talking about behavior problems sometimes boggles my mind. when the solution is so obvious. Yes, I am stressed from the holidays but it seems like we read the same questions day after day on these boards.

Are East coast humans dominant over West Coast humans? Are East coast dogs dominant over West Coast dogs? There are dominant and passive individuals and dogs in both groups. There are both dominant and passive border collies. It is not the breed but the dog's personality.

I think that my claim in the divorce proceedings is that he has no sense of humor and can be very bad tempered. He also does not share. Now that the truck is again mobile and inside accessable, he will not let me use it to go to town. He can just take it and get his own estimates.

Hey, I am one Michigan driver that as previously stated drives by touch. Mark, Andrea and Sam have first hand knowledge of this. We have our first snow of substance. Snow can make it much more difficult to drive by touch as you never know how much you will slide after you do brake. Started to take hubby's new 4 wheel drive truck (has more bells and whistles than I can keep straight) into town because of the snow (and my van has that needle wiggling funny up and down on an oil pressure gage). Had a little problem. Did you know that although you cannot slip much when you put it in four wheel drive, you also cannot turn as sharply? I am buying husband a new mailbox for Christmas. Just thought that I should warn everyone about the sharp turn thing. Also it may be prudent to find the window scaper and use it before taking off. Sometimes it is nice to see what you are touching. The driving pointer for the day: After you bump into something, when you quickly get out of the vehicle to see what you "bumped", be careful not to hit the door locks if the key is still in the ignition. It will cost you extra money to hire a locksmith. Now that I have imparted my newfound knowledge to the list. Does anyone have the name of a good divorce lawyer?

God, I am glad that I was not in the same country that you were in when you woke up without coffee. It could be hazardous to my mental health. I also am glad that I did not have to drive the 401 or 407 (the only two roads in Canada) when you were on your little sheep excursion. I am trying these days not to live on the edge. With my luck, I would have been the pool fool in front of you.

Good one Mark. Mick also rules our household. He is not mellow. He is a holy terror. He has put Pip and Merc into their place! Even Tux wants to stay clear of him. You could throw him off the wall and he would come back for more. You correct him for things like pulling down the Christmas tree and he walks off looking for more wonderful stuff to do. You can pick him up by the nape of his neck and he may lick your nose and wag his tail. It appears that I have done it again with my pick. He was supposedly the shy one. He also does not sleep all night. Tonight he is going into the crate on the back porch and I am going to shut the door. We have bonded enough with the crate next to my bed!

A Are we possibly in a bad mood this morning> T