Jeanne Bell

I keep 15 -20 head of breeding ewes. This year I'm down to 15 + my lambs + a Dorset ram. Hay storage was a problem for the last 2 years. I piled it outside under a tarp and that's not a good way to store hay in the WV mountains. Too much moisture. We're building a hay barn this spring. Back to the sheep. I love my flock. Rambouilett/Dorset/NCC crosses. 200% lambing avg. this year, all lambed on their own outside. 2 sets of triplets being raised by their milky mothers. Jeanne Bell Fly the wise one Glen the powerful Isabelle the protector

Julie, I know I'm late answering your thread. My experience on a relatively small piece of land (15 acres) and with multiple species is that the dog is preferable. I had a llama; he was difficult to worm (menigeal worm requires 30 day interval for worming), aggressive toward my Border Collies, aggressive toward me when I had to handle lambs, in short, a lot of trouble. My neighbor lost 70 lambs in 2 weeks with a stud donkey on duty. That donkey sure chased people though! My Maremma came from a long line of working dogs who demonstrated traits that were important to me. The adults were aloof but not aggressive toward me when I visited and the breeder had several small children and a bunch of border collies (like me) I used electronet to train the pup to stay with her sheep and out of the yard. She's really the perfect farm dog. She's friendly to the family and our guests, never leaves the pastures/paddocks, stays with her flock, likes the horses, especially my daughter's pony, and doesn't bark except when predators threaten the flock. She ignores cars, etc. She's the least trouble of any dog we've ever owned. I know some guard dogs fail, but I believe many failures are due to lack of attention to detail during the early training of the dog. Our guard dog has been an asset and a pleasure. Jeanne Bell Fly, Glen, and Isabelle Maremma Snowshoe, WV

Late for the prolapse discussion but I've had too much experience with the problem. I had a line of ewes that prolapsed. They all went back to the same ram. After the 4th prolapse (2 were full sisters and 1 was their mother, I culled everything in my flock carrying that bloodline. Knock on wood, no more prolapses. (4 years.) Sorry, I would cull. (Some of my ewes have names too so I understand how you feel) Jeanne Bell Snowshoe, WV

NOT PASSABLE "Any dog which repeatedly splits the group and attacks one or several animals, or grips any animal and holds on. A dog which evidences chasing rather than herding behavior." Well, I feel pretty good about this. Perhaps all the young working Border Collies will fail their "instinct tests" and AKC will close their books to our ill bred mutts. Jeanne Bell

Once I asked my neighbor, an old farmer who works wih Border Collies every day (They "live" in the back of his truck), I asked him how to keep my young Border Collie from herding my horse every time I rode. "Well, I suppose you should just tell her not to" was his reply. He seemed a bit perplexed that I needed to ask such a question. I've since found much wisdom in his quiet response. My older female simply does not work horses, and my young dog won't work them when I'm riding because I tell him not to. When we are working at the barn on foot, I do find it necessary to tie this dog on a 4 ft chain. He quietly lies down and hangs out once he's restrained. I find this much preferable to constantly reminding him to stop eying the horses (or sheep). This might be an answer for the question about taking the pup along on chores. Simply tie the pup up while you work. Be sure that the pup is not allowed to "freak out" on the chain. Correct her if she barks or gets excited. The idea is to teach her to relax and "turn off" when she's tied up. This is something every trial or farm dog needs to learn. Just a few thoughts from someone who's trained only 4 border collies. Jeanne Bell

Thanks everyone! Jeanne

My vet was out yesterday and asked me about visiting Working Border Collies in England (next week) I seem to remember that Derek Scrimenger has a stock dog center? Does anyone know what his websight is? Jeanne

Mark, That sounds like a good approach. Denise, On the independence issue. I love that part of training stockdogs. I've been working on how much is the right amount of independence. I've very quickly switched from a dog who is pushing against me all the time to a dog who started looking back at me (keeking) on the drive! I responded by keeping quiet and he went back to driving. It's so interesting. Jeanne

Thanks Denise, Glen is already driving very well. I can see how that could be a pitfall in a beginning dog. Mark, I like the leash with this dog because I don't have to speak. I've found that the less I speak, the more effective I am. He's straining to hear me now that I'm not running my mouth all the time! I used to have him walk with me off leash and constantly remind him to stay with me. It was akin to nagging. Jeanne

Oh the laments! I've worked out a little farm, a flock of sheep, my own business, but with 3 kids, (2 in college, and one in middle school,) I'm strapped for money and time too. I'm chalking it up to that 10 year apprenticeship I read about when I got into this 7 years ago! If I can still lift a bale by the time I'm free enough to persue this passion, maybe I'll be good at it. For now, it's just a few trials a year for me. I spend my time trying to train my dogs to their full potential. It's about achieving our personal best. Jeanne Snowshoe, WV

I recently had a big breakthrough with my 4 year old male who sounds similar to yours. He also likes to create his own work and was very sensitive to movement of the sheep as a trigger to GO. This may sound a little strange but his problem was a lack of respect for me as the leader when we were working. He wasn't working for me. I think he grudgingly accepted my commands, but like your dog, I could not trust him to hold sheep without reminding him again and again, and he was tight on come by and wide on away. He responded to corrections by running faster. He was tough. My daughter and I watch "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic Channel. He approaches every behavior problem by teaching the owner to walk their dog on a leash, in a following position. Ellie and I found this somewhat amusing. However, one day he explained to a client that the purpose was to produce a calm, submissive mind in the dog. I thought about my dog. He was always tense, like a cocked pistol. He also did not ever behave submissively to me. He was obedient to commands but never submissive to corrections. So I gave it a try. I made a slide collar with a piece of baling twine (always available!) and started marching him around the farm while I did my chores. It only took a couple days to effect BIG changes in this dog. He really did relax while following me and his behavior changed within our pack and around the house. He became noticeably calmer. After 3 days I took him to sheep. He was much much better! When he failed to take a Lie Down command, instead of repeating it louder or giving a verbal correction, I "walked him down" without saying a word. He actually rolled over! I put him on the string and walked him off the field and tied him up. I had to do this twice and he GOT IT. We have a much better relationship now and he regards me as the undisputed leader. He can hold sheep reliably and if he's tight, I lie him down and give a (low vocal tone) come ou-u-ut. He gives ground. I had to walk out to him last week because we had deep snow and he was committed to staying on the "path", but that was not really disobedience, it was just a training opportunity. Once he understood, he had it. It's really cool! I was almost defeated by this dog, now I love him. He's still a high energy dog who requires a lot of exercise and work and supervision but now that I have his cooperation, he's a joy. I expect that I will have to always be mindful of maintaining my leadership status with this pushy dog, but now that I understand it should not be a problem. I know all dogs are different, but I hope this helps somebody out there. Jeanne Bell Snowshoe, WV

Hi Sue, Email me privately about getting together. My flock is heavily pregnant right now but after we lamb in April and the lambs get a little size on them, it would be fun. Are your cattle dog broke? My dogs have never worked cattle. My email is condodoc@frontiernet.net Jeanne Bell Snowshoe WV

I liked Renee's example of the difference between a trial dog in training and a farm dog. I think it's an easy "trap" to fall into. You have a nice pretty biddable dog at home doing your chores. The sheep know the daily drills, and the dog knows the drill and the sheep. It's easy for the dog to get sloppy because the sheep know where they're supposed to go anyway. Like Renee's Rae, the farm dog should be corrected for sloppy and incorrect work because one day the farm dog may be required to do something entirely different than the daily routine, like separate the ram from the ewes after he's jumped the fence, or load the trailor,(penning). Open flanks and obedience are necessary to accomplish these tasks calmly and efficiently. It was my interest in trialing that prompted me to correct my dogs during their daily chores, however I've seen such vast improvement in their daily work that I now feel correct work should always be the goal, even when it's "just" farm chores. It's so satisfying when the dogs are right. Jeanne Bell and friends Snowshoe WV Jeanne Bee

Hi Sue, I'm in Pocahontas County very near Snowshoe Mountain. Not so far from you. My son attends WVU. So nice to hear of someone in WV! We are really buried now. We got about 16-18 more inches of snow today and it's stil snowing. How about you? Jeanne Bell-HIT (handler in training) Fly working BC, Glen Working BC Isabelle Maremma Patch working English Setter Audax elderly Springer Spaniel

In my opinion it's the farm work that trains the trial dog. All those little chores we do around the farm are lessons for correct work. Correcting faults in everyday farm work creates good working habits that carry over to the trial field. Mark mentioned that an antsy dog who can't stop moving could be successful at trialing but maybe not farm work. I disagree. I thnk the farm work is the best way to make a useful trial dog with this personality type. To do farm work, he has to learn to relax and listen. This will transfer over to the trial field. Our job as a trainer is to figure out how to get through to this dog's mind and in my opinion correctly done farm work is the tool of choice. I have limited trial experience, but I really believe that you won't find a sucessful trial dog who doesn't do farm work well. I believe both types of work require an equal amount of training for the dog. Jeanne Bell (Buried in snow in the West Virginia Mtns.)