Jodi

Rebecca - I think you're on to something with the Picardy idea. Do you know anyone with a Pyr Shepherd? Although I'd heard of one, I never really looked it up. Very interesting! And it seems that their "smooth coat" is referring more to a smooth face, with what we would consider a "medium coat." Jodi

Maria, I have no doubt that if you were to ever breed a litter, it would be well-researched, a lot of thought put into it, all the t's crossed, all the i's dotted. However (oh those dreaded hypotheticals again), what if you were to sell a pup to someone, found out they weren't who they made themselves out to be, they didn't keep in touch with you, and you found out down the line that the pup ended up in the shelter? Somehow, I just don't think at that point you would be so quick to say, "it's ignorance that bred them..." I just cannot agree that because a dog ends up in the shelter, that the default feeling should be that the breeder must be ignorant. Am I trying to say that there aren't a whole slew of irresponsible, ignorant breeders out there? Not by a long shot. But because a dog ends up in the shelter -- more likely than not -- unbeknownst to the breeder, I don't think makes them irresponsible. I can't tell you how many times I've taken a dog in, and asked the owner, "Well, have you contacted the breeder?" Nine times out of ten, the answer is, "No." However, what the breeder then does with the information that one of their pups is in the shelter is a different story, IMO. Jodi

Maria, Where does the responsibility of the very person who brought the dog to the pound lie? It seems that there's an awful lot of blame being thrown around, but none on the person (in my opinion) directly responsible. I consider myself to be part of a community. Why is it my problem that someone else in my community made a commitment to a dog and didn't keep it? Why is it my problem that there are dogs in the pound? I've never put one there. Am I doing anything about it? Well, I foster dogs for the HS here and find them -- what I feel to be -- good homes. That's all I have the means to do. Should I be doing more? If so, please let me know what that is, and how I would go about getting the funding for it. (and here comes more of the dreaded hypotheticals...) Now, if I ever decided to breed a litter, would these be the same types of homes I would place puppies in? Sure. Let's say one of my fosters ends up back at the shelter. What would people say to me? "Well, Jodi, you did your best. Don't let it get you down. Keep doing what you're doing." But let's say one of the puppies I bred ends up at the shelter. Now I'm an irresponsible breeder and it's all my fault. In a perfect world, we would like to think that a breeder should be responsible for any and all puppies they put on the ground for the rest of their lives. Paints a pretty picture, doesn't it? To me, for starters, that's just not realistic. Second, there is a ton of responsibility that lies directly with the person who buys the puppy. Heck, if I wanted to, I could have taken my dysplastic pup, threw out her papers, and dropped her at the doorstep of the humane society in the middle of the night. Where would the blame lie then? With the breeder? How? He wouldn't have even known I did it. With the "community"? How? They didn't know I did it, either. Jodi

FF39 - I understand what you're saying, however, if you look at it from a breeder's perspective, they cannot breed the dog. And the fact that they would put the dog down ... is far better than taking the dog back and using it in their breeding program. I have a dog with severe HD. I got a full refund, including the cost to fly the dog out here (again, the breeder going over and above, considering we had no contract). However, when I told him that she had HD, and I was considering returning her, he would not promise me that he would not put her down. So we kept her. I couldn't see flying her 3000 miles only to be put down. But if she was to be put down, I felt that it was his responsibility, considering he bred her. 2 1/2 years later, we still have her, but we face putting her down at some point, which is very sad, but it's something we considered when we decided to keep her and not perform surgery on her. Jodi

Dixie girl, Thank you for your opinion. I am stepping out of this conversation. We are on two very opposite sides. Jodi

I lived in Southern California for 17 years or so. In the schools ... not even close. You should hear what those kids are 'taught' to say to adults. At the schools in L.A., I think the teachers would end up in a looney bin if any kid ever treated them with respect. What a concept. My son learned all about racism in school, and I found myself doing damage control. I have mixed feelings on this. I was thrilled when I moved to Idaho, and someone said, "Merry Christmas" to me. I feel very lucky that my son has grown up to be a very nice young man, with respect for those around him, despite what he was up against. I don't like to take any credit for the way he has turned out, but I can say that it takes a lot of work, time, effort and energy to raise children. And it's pretty sad when you see a kid whose parents had better things to do with their time. But with the laws enacted, and the schools informing the kids of their rights, you end up with a kid who says: "If you smack me, I'll call child services on you!" ?? Would you have ever said that to your parents? I know I wouldn't have. But my son grew up in that day and age. It's yet one of those very tough issues of ... do you make a law against physically punishing children that effects everyone, or punish the few? And at what cost and when? When the child is already dead because dad beat him with a 2x4? But now that they've put these blanket laws have been put in place that make it illegal for a parent to spank a butt, who is around to pick up the pieces when the kids are so far out of control, the parents are no longer effective? It's also why I have issues with (while we're at it, i'll bring this up, too...) abortion. There are many people who are pro-life and wanting to protect that fetus at all cost, but yet do nothing in the way of education prior to, or support of the child afterwards. Jodi

Dixie girl, if it was something I said that made you feel you were being attacked, please accept my apology. That certainly was not my intention. I checked out a few things yesterday as far as what laws are currently in place here, and much to my chagrin, I found out that children riding loose in the back of pickup trucks is legal here, so I highly doubt I would get anywhere trying to get my representatives to propose something about dogs. A lot of people in this state feel much the same way you do, in that they don't want their right infringed upon by new laws constantly being enacted. Jodi

Dixie girl - I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this one. I don't understand putting the cart after the horse, which is what you're essentially proposing by having the dog already jump out of the car, and letting me hit it. The problem is, I don't want to hit it. I don't think it's fair that I get to go to sleep that night knowing I hit that guy's dog -- whether or not he's sitting in jail or what kind of penalty he gets tagged with. I still hit (and probably killed) his dog. Hey Vicki - your story is awful. It's the very thing I am afraid of every time I see a dog pacing in the back of a truck. In all of that, did you happen to catch the guy's license plate so he could be reported and people can sue him for damages, or he could be reported to the police to face criminal charges? Did the guy even know he lost his dog, no less damaged at least two cars and traumatized a bunch of people and killed his dog by not properly securing it? Jodi

Ok ... hang on ... I didn't mean for this to go so far. My point is this. Someone is driving down the road. The dog is in the back of the pickup unrestrained. The dog jumps out (for whatever reason) and I run over it. This is not all that unreasonable. By law, I need to stop, give the person my information, and they have the right to sue me for killing their dog, yes? Where is the law saying that they need to keep their dog properly confined in the back of that pickup? Where is THEIR responsiblity in all of this? Isn't it their responsiblity as a dog owner to keep their dogs safe? I am not concerned with rural areas. Since moving to Idaho, I understand the rural area thing. I also understand how people don't want the "guvmint" coming down on them. I get it. I admire it. However, here in Boise, this is a growing city. And I see dogs loose in the back of pickups all the time. In fact, just the other day, my husband and I watched a dog, who was on the top of a toolbox, slide from one end to the other when the owner made a right turn. Had the turn been any "deeper," the dog would have slidden right off the side into traffic. Comparing this to children/humans is just not the same thing. I'm not even going there. As far as comparing this to a DUI and pulling over the ones who only do bad ... I don't think that would work. We have a BAC (blood alcohol level) where under .08 is legal ... and anything above that is not ... because it impairs your judgment. I would like to hear ideas on how to fit that very idea into the dogs-in-pickups legislation and I would be happy to propose it. For instance, if you have a dog in the back of your truck, are you only allowed to drive 25 mph? What's the cutoff? Is it only in the "cities"? Here ... the only counties that are really heavily populated is Ada County and parts of Canyon County. Believe me, I understand what you're staying about not infringing on your rights because of a few idiots. But I don't see where the cutoff point is. Fact of the matter ... you have the right to have your dog in the back of the truck, but I do NOT have the right to hit your dog and drive off without being in violation of the law. How fair is this? Jodi

"That said, I still would not like to see a law forbidding it. Because I am of the belief that we have too many laws already and I don't believe that we need the guvment telling us what to do and what not to do. We need to educate the public not dictate what they do or don't do. Everytime we make a law we give up a little piece of our freedom." Dixie girl - I understand what you're saying. So when I run over one of these dogs that jump out of the backs of idiot's trucks, should I feel obligated to stop and face legal action then? Jodi

Beautiful photos, Robin! I was just nosing around your website, and saw the new page you put together of all the photos of your dogs taken by various people, i.e. Denise, Christine, Mark, etc. Gorgeous! What a neat page, what stunning dogs, and what great friends you have... Jodi

Oh ... this SO gets my goat! Every time I pull up next to an idiot with his dogs loose in the back of the truck, I make a nice happy face and convince the guy (sorry, but it's inevitably a guy) to roll down his window ... and then I thank him kindly (ha ha) for the opportunity he's given me to run over his dog(s), and how it's no skin off his back, because he doesn't have to try to sleep at night having gone "thump thump" over his best friend. I have been working on figuring out where the bill is in legislation here, and want to work with our representatives on getting a law passed. It's inconceivable to me that there isn't a law already in place in this state. In my opionion, it should be a felony. Jodi

Laurie - I have seen one flat-footed, neglected dog finally get the work it needed and, while its feet never quite looked "right," he did look much better than when he was dropped off. Do you have a photo you can post? Jodi

I never thought of it that way, but can see how there is some truth to that in watching some people brag. I think it's way too dangerous. If a pup that young gets challenged and/or hurt at that young of an age, it may never want to go back to stock. As far as picking puppies ... we had a choice of two, and I made my husband decide. I figured that method was as good as any at that age. Jodi

Thanks everyone. I put up the pen this morning. It's right about 50' in diameter. Seems to be a nice size, although, I haven't tried it out yet. I only used eight 16' panels, but one side of the "octagon" is existing fence, and I left a space to put a gate -- which I haven't figured out what I want to use yet. Probably a regular chain link gate would be easiest. Joan, in looking at the size of this, I don't think the round pen where we were training was quite as big. Maybe mine just looks larger because I don't have pens attached to it, or shrubs around it. Those telephone poles laying around the perimeter might be a good idea to hold the bottom of the fencing in place, though. Jodi

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. So, I need some help in doing that. What do you all think of people making a living off dogs and dogs alone? Not training them on stock and selling them for a *fair* amount of money. Not doing clinics. Not offering lessons. Just doing all the "proper" health tests on the adults, possibly putting a few of them on sheep for a bit, training others up to a little more than started, having a fancy website, and then selling puppies for a ridiculous amount of money ... all year long ... litter after litter ... and having that be your only income. Let's even assume all the puppies are healthy. Let's assume that most of them have acceptable temperaments. And let's further assume a decent number of the pups work. Responsible breeder or glorified puppymill? Jodi

Hmmm ... I have a few 1/2 panels and some other pieces of fencing laying around. With those, and the gates, I'm sure I could push 60'. I was standing in the area last night with all the fencing laying on the ground, but it was really hard to tell how big it really would be until I stand it all up. I'll work on it tonight and see what I come up with. Thanks!!! Jodi

I'm not sure where to put this, so I'm putting it here. I have gone through the archives and found that the "recommended" size for a round pen is 100' in diameter. I measured out 100' ... and that, to me, seems like quite a distance. The purpose of my round pen would be to simply introduce young dogs to stock. In mapping out 100' ... I don't think I could maintain control if something were to go south. So, I went out and bought eight 16' wire ranch panels and laid them out. According to the formula, that gives me just over a 40' diameter. Add a couple of gates in there, and I have almost a 50' diameter. This, to me, seems like a decent size for what I need. Am I missing something? What are the drawbacks of a round pen that's too small? How big are your round pens? Thanks. Jodi

Rachel - Please tell me you e-mailed that pedigree to yourself... Sitstay doesn't retain them. Once you close the window, it's gone unless you clicked the option to have it e-mailed ... Jodi

Jeanne - What is the breeding on that girl if you don't mind my asking ... Jodi

Donna - I, too, thought destructo might have had some valid points ... until I asked him if he ever worked livestock with this dogs. In a deleted post, his answer amounted to "no." Now knowing that, his e-mails have a different feel. "If the border collie is only a tool for your work, why do you care at all about the politics and the registries?" You can't explain this to someone who doesn't care to learn. "Why do you even have herding trials at all?" Yet, in another post, he explained how useless trial are. He knows everything. "Have any of you used the trials as a bench mark to buy dogs for your farm... to work?" It's obvious he hasn't been on this board very long. "Seems to me that most of you are 4H types that use herding with BCs for your own self gratification and enjoyment" Coming from someone who has never used his dog on stock in his life, this isn't even worth responding to. "just because you can't get more creative with using the dogs for something other than their historical purpose..." Anyone on these boards can tell you what a dirverse group of people we have, and all the different activities our dogs are involved in, but when it comes to breeding, yes, the work ("historical purpose") is the standard. "you seem to be insecure and need to bash agility and city sport which takes as much skill and training as herding...." How would he know if he's never even so much as introduced his dogs to stock? There's nothing valid about this claim. "in fact, it's probably more impressive than herding, since people can relate to training a dog to do all of these tricks and how amazing that is." And tell me ... where do these dogs get the drive and attention span to be taught these tricks? Can't tell destructo, though. He knows it all. "Watching a dog do a nice outrun doesn't quite pique the curiosity of the lay person nearly as much." If these dogs start getting bred according to what piques the curiosity of lay people like destructo, our breed is going to be destructo. "The greatest utility of a Border Collie no longer comes out of it's use as a herding animal, since the herding industry itself has changed and things like the great cattle drives are a thing of the past. You can cling to your historical romantic visions of Border Collies and sheep, but that isn't the future of the breed, and to think that it is will just result in the death of the breed along with the death of your industry." Again, this is coming from someone who has never worked a dog on livestock ... and certainly doesn't come off as someone looking to learn a thing or two. Sounds to me like someone who is justifying breeding his dogs without having to prove their "ancient" working ability. "The raison d'etre for the Border Collie is no longer sheep. That's a fact that you will have to get over. You aren't going to change that... the norm is now the pet dog, not the working dog." And, hence, the very heart of the reason Barbie Collies exist. Nothing original about this. Jodi

Eileen - If it becomes too much trouble (I see we already have a "Destructo4" registered...), let him post. It's quite entertaining. Here you've got a tried and true brain surgeon (hey, he's from Stanford, don't you know...) talking about the future of the breed, what kind of dogs we have and have been breeding, and the purpose of sheepdog trials ... meanwhile he's never worked a dog on stock in his life. It's kind of like the bull storming into the china shop and doing a sermon on how to make fine china out of plastic and watercolors. (being very sneaky and leaving my name off the post...)

Destructo - "Frankly, I think the sheep aspect of the breed is near death. It used to be that you got Border Collies because you had sheep, but now people get sheep because they have Border Collies. But the popularity of BCs now mean that sheep are out of reach for the majority of BC owners." "Even you ranchers and rancher wannabes (back yard ranchers?) have to appreciate that you and your descendents have changed the BCs to fit your needs. BCs for big sheep, BCs for small sheep, BCs for cattle, BCs for ducks, geese, lamas, etc." "Frankly, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of different breeders of all types who use the trials and shows and competitions to "prove" that the dogs they have and want to breed are worthy. Just like the only reason any registry exists is to provide the same stamp of approval." There are some interesting thoughts among some of your posts, and ones I would even be willing to go to task with you on, however, I would like to know a little bit about your background with the breed. I don't believe you posted an introduction, unless I just missed it. So, where are you from? How did you get involved with the breed? What's your experience with them? Have you ever run a dog in a herding trial? Have you done any conformation showing? Agility? Flyball? Do you own any dogs now? If so, where did you get them from and, more importantly, what about the breeder impressed you? In other words, what experience do you have that backs up your claims? Jodi

Just thoughts on a mythical website ... What I find is people who pat themselves on the back because they have a fabulous contract -- some for breeding,some for non-breeding -- do all the proper health checks, and have a clause in their contract about having the dog come back to them, are the very same people who also have fancy websites and don't test their dogs working ability at a very high level. If they chase three dog-broke sheep in a round pen, that's good enough for them. The people that have dogs whose ability has been tested to an exceptional level still do business on a handshake. They don't have fancy websites, and the number you call is most likely to the phone in the barn. If you ask these people, "If at some point I'm not able to take care of the dog, will you take it back?" Most will. And most of these same people also test their dogs hips/eyes/etc. prior to breeding. But do these breeders pat themselves on the back for it? No. And would they want to be listed with "Joe Blow" and "Jane Blow" who tout "responsible breeding" yet are breeding dogs whose ability has only been tested in a round pen? I doubt it. Just my thoughts. Jodi

This is going to be my last post on this thread. I am ashamed of myself. I'm ashamed that I got sucked into this little game that the three musketeers play. I "know" all of them and have gotten into it with all three of them before. They look to rile up the people with "working dogs" ... I've seen it happen over and over. And I got sucked into it. I know better. KillerH - No apologies necessary. It was not your fault. The worst part for me is the betrayal I felt by Maggie. I stood up for her when she came on this board. It's too bad that she ... even now ... has yet to return the favor on either this board or the BCC. She wrote me an apology privately, but did she call her cronies off? Nope. I got a private e-mail from Cathy a little while ago spewing her stupidity yet again. Fool me once, Maggie, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I just got done shedding my wethers off my ewes with a big, angry ram protecting the whole flock, and am just glad I didn't have one of their dogs at my side. It never would have gotten done, if their dogs lived to tell the tale. Maggie, Cathy, Leslie ... K.M.L.W.F.A. Jodi