blackacre

Check the USBCHA website, there's two in Michigan this year and several in Ohio I believe. Hey, don't forget the CBCA website for Ontario trials, what's wrong with Canada eh? A.

I'll bring more. 5 am. I think I preferred it when the Pissing Puppy pissed in his crate and let me sleep. Raging ice storm out there. Did someone say 80F in Florida? A.

Hi Nancy, Love your website,so you bought Bryn? Yes, Terry and and I are coming down your way for most of April. Our annual spring fling, can hardly wait. Diane, Don't know about nice! Andrea

Hah! I don't think I want to hear any more. Back to my Thursday aft. dogs, A.

Hi guys,Checking in for a second of diversion. We had nice weather yesterday and today too. Tomorrow however they are calling for freezing rain. So much for my fantasy of working the dogs tomorrow. Nancy O, as I live and breathe! Personally, I don't like to use a long line for anything. Just a personal preference I guess. I'd rather find a way to communicate with the dog that doesn't involve manual restraint or correction. However, one of my friends did go to that clinic and raved about the concept, so maybe I'm due for a reassessment. Bill, I wouldn't describe an honest dog as a biddable one. Back to defining terms, we should start a dictionary. It's kind of like a bunch of blind guys trying to describe an elephant, isn't it? Eventually, you can end up with a pretty good description if you put everyone's observations together and refine it. Anyway, to me a honest dog is one that you can trust not to screw you if left to its own devices or perhaps if it is not handled just so. For example, my Cap grandson, otherwise only a so-so dog, would NEVER do anything but a perfect outrun ending at the perfect lift point (I speculate this is a characteristic of the Bwlch Taff lineage, by the way). So, in that respect he is a really honest dog. It would never occur to me that he would cross his course and I wouldn't be watching for it. In other words, trustworthy. Thoughts? And then there's "power" and "heart". Whoeee, we got a ways to go here. Watch out OED. I'll check in later, Andrea

I agree totally Kevin, well said. However, I do think that a dog with a lot of eye, especially a young one, is prone to getting sucked into the zone too far and so will come to a point where it will be reluctant to release pressure while staying in contact. Back to what I was saying about re-engaging at a less than optimum pont. A more experienced dog will not have this problem. I would also suggest that it is imperative to teach this type of dog a "keep" and an "away". There are going to be times when you need to break the dog off totally, say at a drive panel or to do a turn back. I think it was you Kevin that mentioned you wondered if your dog was weak because of the way it came in at the top but realized that it was the eye that was doing it. A friend of mine has a tremendous dog whose only fault is its outrun and lift. It will actually come in BELOW the sheep but somehow will manage to lift them straight on line. As soon as they lift, he will slip in behind the sheep and then keep them dead on line. I've held for him many times and he really does this. I should add that this happens even when the pressure is straight downwind. I think what he is doing is holding them there until he can get into position to fetch, rather than giving them a lot of leeway in the latter part of the outrun as a naturally outrunning dog will do. And, as you will gather from my frequent posts, I too am desperate for my fix of dog talk. We haven't been able to work dogs here for weeks. I don't even own a strong eyed dog at the moment. Boo hoo, living in Canada. By the way Geri, I just thought of another handling tip I learned. I think of it as the "Z". If your dog is stalled out, give it two quick alternating flanks in succession, followed by a walkup: "flank, flank, WALK UP." Works best by way of whistle. For this one you actually want the dog to cut its flanks, it's no damn good if it's flanking back and forth on a line in front of the sheep's noses. I would practice this on the drive with the sheep moving at a smart clip and then transfer this to the situation where you need it, like at the post. Andrea

Sam I knew you could relate. Can hardly wait to meet Wee Todd. Hi Geri, The bandaid solution: sacrifice precision for momentum at the turn. Or: if he sticks when he stops, don't let him stop. I also recommend the correction method. See above. Set it up in training of course. If he stops when you didn't ask him to or asked for something else, like a time or a flank, go after him. A. A.

Hi Sam, Yup. Taught me humility, that one. Never mind, the Pissing Puppy is going to Rock the World. Andrea

Hound of Baskervilles. And I agree Bill, some of the greats were just like that, take Wisp for example. You hear all sorts of stories about him. Someone I know calls them "big course" dogs, another "Sunday" dogs, the ones that make it to the final round. All I can say is, they're way too much for me, I'm sticking to Saturday or even Friday night dogs from now on. Andrea

But, to answer your implied comment, yes I think I caused it by the way I handled him, by either over-handling him or under-handling him. The line was VERY fine, he was a high maintenance dog. If you overdid it, he would become tense and over-excited or, like I say, stall out. If you under-handled him, he would take over and could not be stopped, like riding a freight train straigt tohell. A.

None, zero, nada. The dog did not have an OUNCE, a milligram, a microgram of sulk in his body. Never seen another one like him for that. And he had lots of ideas of how to do a job, they just happened not to be mine most of the time.A.

Well, to be really technical about it and to answer Bill's question at the same time, I think you want a strong eyed dog to turn its head right away on the flank and move in a straight line, ie with the hind end in line with the front, rather than have it moving in the requested direction crabwise ie with the front of the dog closer to the sheep than the rear as it flanks. To me the latter indicates that the dog has not broken off contact as required for a square flank. So, again technically, you do NOT want to see the dog doing what Kevin described on the fetch or anywhere else when asked for a flank.A.

PS I would really be curious to hear if anyone thinks you can have a really strong eyed dog that is a natural outrunner, as I've defined it above, not just a GOOD outrunner (often a mechanically trained outrun will be better than a natural one.) A.

Oops.Hi Bill, actually the only thing that freed up this dog (or more, accurately, me) was selling him. Not only did he have eye, he was HARD AS HELL. (Another term having a very specific meaning, esp to me!) Like I say, he was beautifully trained, would take a small flank or a large one. Should have come with a 30 page manual. However, if he did not do it absolutely correctly (which for him had to be VERY correct) you were in trouble. If you stayed on him and wore him down, he would not come on, especially if the sheep were facing him. I would put this down to his eye, maybe I'm wrong. Andrea

Hey Kevin, i have a Cropper's Cap grandson, no eye at all. Plain as all get out. Dryden Joe was very plain too, I'm told, would often look as if he wasn't even looking at the sheep at all, but he got the job done, brilliantly. I agree that the key to a strong eyed dog is to break them off contact and not let them engage at inappropriate moments, like the early stages of the outrun or the first part of the flank. You don't want them sucked in by their eye and don't want them to engage the sheep until the last minute. This pretty well results in what I would call a "manufactured" outrun that does not resemble that of a natural outrunner, which begins to feel the sheep about 2/3 of the way out and BENDS OUT in response, creating the classic pear shaped outrun. If you allow a strong eyed dog to feel the sheep too early, they will be tight and stop short for the reasons I discussed earlier. In my opinion, you also need to square off a strong eyed dog's flanks more than you would a plain dog that relies on its movement to some extent to move the sheep.You need to get this type of dog to disengage almost completely on a flank before re-establishing contact at the point chosen by you giving it a "there" or a walkup. Otherwise it is prone to slicing and establishing a point of contact just behind the optimum, say slightly BEHIND the shoulder rather than just at the shoulder. Has this been your experience with your dog? My only caveat is that I did once own a dog with a quite a bit of eye that had been professionally trained. If you insisted on working him really far off contact and keeping him absolutely correct, he would eventually stall out when asked to walk up. Andrea

Addendum: will often fly in for a grip if forced to walk up. A.

I always assumed it was a quite specific description of a dog that has excessive eye and uses it eye to keep the sheep under control. This type of dog is happiest when the sheep are still and not going anywhere and is difficult to pull of the pressure point it has established. Will just stand or lie there and appears to be almost mesmerized by the sheep. Often manifested as holding the group against the fence or in a corner in the early stages of training. Reluctant to come off that point so as to establish pressure somewhere else, the point you want to get the job done. Prone to stopping short on the outrun so as to prevent the sheep from moving off. Doesn't want to upset the apple cart, in other words.Andrea

Well, I too would say that a sticky dog is one with a lot of eye. I believe it tends to get worse with age unless corrected. I think keeping the dog moving and on its feet helps, but the coolest thing I got from a clinic last year was to CORRECT a dog like this for NOT walking up or flanking when asked to do so, ie for clapping down, just as you would correct a dog for NOT lying down when asked to do so. The more usual response would be to encourage the dog to come on. Kinda radical and, to me at least, counter-intuitive.. A friend of mine with a dog with a lot of eye has used it since then and it works like a charm.

"There was a scene in "Blade Runner",picture turning and exposing what could not be seen by naked eye. If we put that picture into same perspective,we may actually see a Border Collie about 20-30 yards away controlling those sheep." Reminds me of the time I had a ? out and had to use Hobbes to back it up. He was absolutely disgusted, you should have seen the look on his face. If I took him away, the sheep would ADVANCE on the ?."Gloria, what is that? I don't know Esther, let's go take a look." [ bullets used to deflect outraged replies]

"If, on the other hand, your local shops are such a shambles that the big boxes really *are* better, then I suppose they deserve to be put out of business." That's my point. I will however concede that I am offering you the big city perspective, there may be other considerations to weigh in the rural and small town areas. And yes, I shop at Chapters/Indigo (Our version of Barnes & Noble) when I'm not ordering online from Amazon. HUGE selection, terrific availabilty and great price, plus 10% off every purchase as a member and gift coupons based on how many books I buy (lots). And in both cases I really don't care who works there since I know what I want and would rather be left alone anyway. A.

Sorry, but price, slection and availability are important too. That's why the big box stores attract the business, including mine. A.

Hi Kim, 1. Lose the poodle. 2. Take the dog by the collar and walk between the sheep and the fence, with you closest to the sheep. Once you have moved the sheep away from the fence by you body pressure and the presence of the dog on your other side, release the dog, go through the sheep and let him/her wear them to you. 3.. If the dog has balance and is starting to get the idea, stand on the OPPOSITE side of the sheep to the dog (eg. sheep at 12 on the fence, you at say 8 and dog at say 4) and use the dog's balance to encourage him/her to go between the sheep and the fence to balance the sheep to you. Allow dog to wear sheep towards you, away from fence. PS I once saw a Lhasa Apso work sheep its first (accidental) time on sheep better than anything I've ever seen. Andrea

Yep, it's the least we can do for her. Payback for her letting my puppies chase her sheep. Don't know that she bought it when I screamed "it's OK, he doesn't bite!" as one of them chased the sheep to the far corner, but so it proved. Gonna have to swith the little darlings to low maintenance, never mind off puppy food. How's your husband doing? Hope all is well Andrea

Totallyterry: Smartass. Totallyloony