Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke

Bless your heart for taking care of someone else's dog. IF it were me, I'd treat this dog as a client, one you need to take wonderful care of, but who is seperate from your own dogs, completely. Give it lots of love and praise out of view and earshot of your dogs, feed it separately, and house it as seperately as you can, then go about your own life with your dogs as normally as you can. Fights are hard on you--you could end up seriously hurt, your dogs can get hurt, and that dog you have been entrusted with can get hurt. Even simple injuries can end up life-threatening if they go at it full force, since dogs tend to go at necks. I know many fights are just vocal posturing with some slobber throwing, but do you want to find out she means it? Imagine how your dogs feel, having to defend their right to you to this new being...who may be just an insecure only-shild bully-dog. Unless you have to do this frequently, I'd skip the training. Just MHO.

I'd be happy to make a donation in the interest of keeping the clinic...not sure I can make it even for a day, but it's been taunting me something fierce.

Thanks Julie, I know Frank's work is outstanding. I got a response to my inquiry that told me the whole entire story on the raffle, (THANKS!), and I want some tickets even more. Great idea. STill embarrassed not to know about it, oh well. That's how it goes. I will contact a seller, and get some tickets. I will not be there most likely (pressing conflicts), but hopefully I can participate. Heck, if I won it, maybe I'll get my dead truck back in time from the garage in Stephens City where it was towed in time to bring it home. haha

AS USUAL, I managed to miss this because I stayed at the top all weekend, but could someone tell me about the raffle being held for the (I heard) beautiful table and benches made by Tom Forrester's "boss" Mr. Frank K. (know how to say it, but hate to spell it wrong, as truly beautiful, wonderful man as I've ever met in my life)? I'd give half a paycheck in chances to have a go at it. It was a tiny speck up the hill at Tom trial last weekend and it radiated it's glory all the way down to me. I know just it's a thing to behold. It was packed up and gone by the end of the day, when I got up there to see it. I heard it was to benefit the VBCA, which makes me feel more stupid for not knowing more! Who to pay for chances, how much, when it's being held, that kind of thing. Thanks for any help!

I ran into a copy in someone's home, picked it up and started reading it, but didn't have time to read it all. GOSH it's good. The stories about Donald's dogs intertwined with the history of the battle and of the whole purebred dog phenominon, Border Collie history, it amazes me how he can weave all that into one work. I need to get it, gotta have it, glad to see where I can find it, didn't see it on Amazon.

NEVER never never let a cat get near Biospot, either by putting it on them or getting some rub-off from a dog. If the cat survives, it will be a costly adventure at the vet office.

Since reading Julie's post, I have to chime in on the Heritage breed cord too. I personally really enjoy sheep and got some of my 4Her's interested in them, but these kids are from urban families living in a rural area (suburb of Richmond VA). We chose a breed native to our state, listed on the ALBC as critical in numbers, and interesting for their parasite resistance and hardiness, something really interesting to learn about. Last year at the VA state fair, a ram from Mount Vernon placed Grand Champion Open Ram. Admittedly, this sheep show isn't very big, but he was a handsome thing, and true to the breed (Hog Island). I work them with dogs for practical use only (feeding time, trailer loading and grazing on the site they're kept), and they have interesting flock behaviors, I guess due to their living without predators for two hundred years on a barrier island off the coast of VA. Other than them, I have 4 retired pet Leicestor and Romney crosses (with names, Marvin, Pat, Hershey and Priscilla) I push around when it's not hot.

Mark, I think the protein block might work IF they're hungry for it. Grain works the same way. In each group you might have one who's hungry and two who could care less about eats. I hate to see grain have to be used, but sometimes it's the only way to distract them from seeing thedog leave the handler, when you know darn well they know it's coming. As long as all is even and consistent, you're going to get "the luck of the draw", and if you get the piggy one, Heaven knows your dog needs to be able to get it moving and not sit and wait til it happens by itself. Isn't that what it's all about? I could write a book on what I've seen at the top, it's the best seat in the house and if I was ever a handler, I'd hope the judge could sort out what was going on. One of the most frustrating things I see is the perfect outrun followed by a dog who hasn't the power to move them off of the set out, jsut waiting, then looking around, then sometimes backing off. I've seen a sheep back a dog up all the way back to the pen more than once. Then there's the patient but strong dog who, just by his very presence (and all the power he possesses) make the hungriest sheep think and decide to git on down the field. Makes my hair stand on end.

Been thinking about Team Penning. We always have a plan for IF we have extra time at the end of the trial to use up...the Fair people want us to entertain til 5, no finishing at three and leaving. We never have that problem, but what if... We COULD have a team penning contest. (Help me here) What if we had one (or two) handler(s) with a dog (or dogs?) who had to sort out the sheep with the appropriate numbers, like team penning, and handler #2 had to stay at the "post" and send his dog to pick them up and then pen them? Cool idea or stupid? Timed, and judged for disqualifying stuff like grips, mostly judged on time. That might be fun. We could either chose teams, draw, whatever.

Don't discount him on that. Talk to the folks who did the surgery, I know of a few who had one surgery and never a problem since. If he's sound and sane, and he sounds inexpensive, I'd go back for a second look. Really. It's tough juggling the horses and the dogs. I love them both =. We still want to come ride at your place one day!

We ALWAYS need help. We have a call in to the wonderful Sue Mullins, equine director at the fair, who we answer to, about what they're leaving us with in that arena. As of today, it was set up for team penning (we could try to do that, with dogs, put little numbers on all the sheep and you have to shed out all of them, then pass them to a second handler who picks them up and sends them to another one who pens them at the far end). If they leave it set up like it is, we lose 20feet at the top to pens, but judges stand is on that end, and for once we have the ability to send sheep out of the other end, as well as exhaust them in another gate, same end. It may be most sensible to let Open dogs pick up their sheep where they lie, on the fence or not. Spotting may get too crowded and they'd lose the extra distance, but Open dogs should be able to pick them up off a fence, right? It does sound AHBA. I think it's going to be a cool trial. No lizards this year, but plenty of noise.

Hey, that's a thought...a late evening class for hearing impaired BC's! Beryl could run again! Just kidding...your ideas are good! The fireworks are after 9pm, our trial runs 10am to 5pm. The fair is always a fun test of concentration, no matter what time.

Hey, Sam, Deep Run Xcountry schooling October 14th! I think there's a dog trial that day too...

I think I under-estimated the arena size, let it be said that it is smaller than the regular one. Bright side-this one is covered, so shady and dry if the weather is an issue (not that it rains anymore). BTW, let it be known that if it does not rain by Friday, it MAY NOT rain again til Monday, right Julie? We got the fence up at Montpelier yesterday, hurray. We had a big chick (me), an older gentleman-shearer, a farmer with hardware hands and his skinny wife, another skinny corgi chick, a tall gentleman from Luray and his son who came to help fix his pop's gashed tire (stumps on the edge of the field) all cattledog legends now, except the corgi woman and me, and the job was done in no time flat. We hope to have LOTS of take down help Sunday evening, and set a new worlds record on take down. So, no rain, drought or no drought, between Friday night and Sunday night. Bring on a tropical storm after that. I got lots of good ideas for simple challenges that won't clutter up the thing Thursday, and our Judge (The gentleman from Strasburg) says bring them on, Pete isn't running. Girls, and gents, Josh Turner concert is 7pm that night at the fair. Take the whole day off.

For Open, in particular, what kind of course is typically found in an Arena trial? The Virginia State Fair SDT this year (Thursday, Oct 4) is in the covered arena, even smaller than the one it's held in, the old one was demolished sometime last year. The judging will include an outrun, lift, fetch, drive, pen and shed, but in a 100X80, what else can be done? Chutes, Maltese Cross, tougher shed (ribboned sheep maybe), looking for ideas and on what is acceptable for a USBCHA santioned trial.

Ditto Bill, top to bottom (also no pun intended). Our county is a rural neighbor of a capital city area, and while the county is starting to feel more urban in a lot of ways, one good thing is I can still get a "kennel license" without going before a Board of Supervisors or Zoning Board to have more than 4-5 domestic animals (cats/dogs). I pay a measley $35 per year to legally house <25 dogs. If that's all they ask of me, I'm content with compliance of the law. I have never been investigated, complained on, or even spot-checked. Add to that, I'm a 4H leader (y'all probably already knew that), and the "Character Counts" liason for our county, and they all believe in proper citizenship, so I try to live what I intend to preach. We have a great animal control department in our county and that's one heck of a thankless job.

This may be a stupid question, but is there a need to reserve space for tent camping? I'm doing the simple (cheap) truck and tent routine, but will only be there Sunday (late) through Wednesday.

Anna, You and I are the lucky ones at trials. When my horse friends know I'm doing a trial, the ones who don't really get what they're about always ask how my dogs did, and I get to say they did great and we "won" $$, and had a great time. People thank you and mean it. They feed you and ask if they can get you anything, ("is everything okay?"). I love it, my dogs love it, and only when I'm feeling like a stockdog handler fraud do I consider getting out of it. I just do pen work for trials, and work with some outstanding handlers at set out. We get to see the dogs at the epitome of the run, the outrun and lift, and I've seen some stuff. I have set out at a few places and loved it, but the pressure is really on you there and you have to be confident and thick-skinned, and I'm Peter-Principled out at the Pen. My dogs and I get to be in some Drop Dead Gorgeous settings, out in good weather and bad, and like yesterday, tough sheep, a nasty storm closing in, it's pretty dramatic stuff, and you get the same high you get when you can endure whatever nature throws at you, so I feel closer to understanding the serenity animals have for enduring what they can't control. What could be better? Oh, let me think...riding home with three tired, smelly teenagers who slept out in the trial field all weekend in tents, and had just about enough of me and my weird sensibilities (nobody talked all the way home, two hours, because they wanted me to take down the last tent in the storm that did blow in so they could get home and go out with their buddies-I waited til it passed, how rude of me). My dogs never question if we had a great time, and we'd go back tomorrow if we could. Actually the 4H girls did have a blast, did a great job learning pen work, got to swim and shampoo in a river, and I hope they got a taste of what is so delicious to us. It's great for showing them how work ethic is all about knowing how satisfying it can be to do a good job, and I think our dogs understand that better than we do! They are nothing but work ethic creatures. I learn so much from them.

I like the questions the poster asked, very thoughtful, and the kind of stuff I wrestle with all the time. As a kid, I wasn't in a home that allowed dogs. We had a cat, and that was our pet, but I was a kid who was passionate about animals, mostly horses and then dogs. I connected with my grandmother's big mixed breed dog, a neighbors poodle, and those were my salvation. I got into horses once my parents split up-- lessons, then as a working student, and we found a dog going out to the barn, and we got to keep it! My life was taking direction. Long story short of it, animals (dogs and horses) have saved me, shaped me, and given me purpose, and I am a pet (dog) professional as a vocation and horseman (14), and sharing this life with kids who, like me, need them to be whole. Sounds kind of hokey, but I see it as God's plan for me. The animals in my life clarify the world I live in. Working at dog trials is my way of taking a vacation. Anyway, when I got Border Collies, I ended up falling in love with sheep (I really love them). I love my dogs, they are what I see as the perfect canine being, bred for a purpose, pure and simple, and the privilege of having my dogs comes with an obligation to keep them in a life that allows them to have what they need to be whole. MY personal dilemma has been, more recently than before, what am I doing to my poor dogs by not being a better handler/trainer, and sometimes it just brings me to tears. I think the world of my dogs, but I'm not a total head-in-the-sand idiot and I see what they are and what they aren't, both by their natural instinct (potential) and what I've created in their training. MOst of the time we get the job done, and sometimes we screw it up. I can wish all I want, but I know it takes a tremendous amount of time to train a dog to be really useful, and I don't have the time (and sheep access) I'd like to do that, and having good enough dogs with good enough training gets it done for me, and I wonder if THAT's fair. I've been to two trials now in the past two weeks, not as a competitor, but as a volunteer or paid crew, and depending on the situation, I felt either very competent or not so, and really wondered if I was embarrassing my dogs by my lack of ability with them (not showing them to be the dogs they would be if they weren't with me). I was at a trial this weekend where my dogs were really great, the sheep were tough and they handled what they did beautifully. There were a lot of good dogs competing who found these sheep a challenge, same as last weekend in KY. I love the work I do, except for the times when I run up on situations where I fall short on being able to do something that exposes my weakness in training, no fault of the dog, and for feeling like someone's going to think my dog is the root of the problem, if I had a "better" dog, it'd not be so. That's my problem, my insecurity. Trialling does help prove the dogs, but it isn't all there is, and it does take on a lot of "sport" characteristics. If I wanted to find a new dog, I could have found one at the trials I've been to recently. Some dogs have the right stuff, but they aren't always running from the post. "Well-bred" is not always matching up a couple of trial-winning dogs if they can only handle the stress of lots of training and working trial sheep who have been worked by dogs all their lives. I admire the dogs who I see at trials that can handle a little set-out work, then go run and win a ribbon, and the ones who can handle those sheep Robin talked about, consistently and well. Taking this to the poster's points, bottom-line, I love using my dogs, and where they could not run an open course (my fault), they can handle sheep some open dogs have trouble with, in tight places like the pen, and sheepy-stressful things like taking three sheep away from their flock to go stand out in the middle of a field, and then allowing for another dog to come out and take them away from them, and not lose their cool. They've been run over, rammed, and horse-raced into fences and they don't lose it. If I give them time, they'll be able to wait out a sheep that needs to think about her options (fight the dog or go where the freedom from the dogs is), and we are a team when we work at a trial. I imagine it's what the handler feels when they complete a course well-run. Being's how I love the sheep, and I love the work, getting to do what I do WITH my dogs, what could be better? To ditto Renee's observation, I am humbled and amazed when my dogs, especially Simon and Luke (rest your soul, buddy, I miss you) do what they do without having me even have to say a word, when they know what's needed and step in and do it, and then step out quietly, and do it 60-100 times in a day. Sometimes I just can't stand it, it's such a good feeling. I hope the dogs feel as good. I think they do.

It's at Debbie Collison's in Davidsonville, Fathers Day weekend. Hers usually fills up pretty quick, but you could call her...no email. I can't make it this time (work), but might be able to get up there Friday to audit, which is invaluable to me. Hope to see you both there.

Sad I was, I got the name wrong, nonetheless, Shirley (Ciochini) was a gem who a few of us had the honor and pleasure to meet, and I will truly miss her.

I'm sure many of you had the distinct pleasure of meeting Arne and Shirley Cox at a few of our dog trials on the East Coast, namely up in Conneticut, down here in VA and the Bluegrass in KY. They traveled in their home-made teardrop camper to the triasl, often volunteering to help once they became more familiar with the trials. They were taken by our magnificent dogs and our special culture at trials, I think one of the first ones they got to attend was the glorious Occasional Highland SDT in Williamsville, where they were witness to Amanda Milliken serenading Donald McCaig with her rendition of "Your Cheatin' Heart" at the handlers' dinner that year. Shirley was apparently taken ill on her way to this year's Bluegrass while camping in Ohio, and passed away on her way to the hospital. Arne sent this out over Sheepdog-L, and I hope he wouldn't mind my pssing it along to you. Shirley was one of the happiest people I ever met, and she made me smile, just to see her there, enjoying her life. She will be truly missed, and I hope Arne will find his way to a trial again one day real soon. Here's the site: http://www.freewebs.com/rememberingmrsc/

Hey there, love to put in my 2cents on dog food. I've been using PMI Exclusive for a while now, and I'm impressed with how my dogs look and feel, and it's not hugely expensive, stools are great, they all eat it readily and I can get it reasonably easily. It has not turned up on any recall lists. It can be had at any feed store that carries Purina Horse feeds, (Purina Mills being separate from Ralston Purina..grocery store foods). Their Exclusive line is a notch up from the PMI Nutrition feeds. I use the chicken and rice variety and the senior one for the old ones who aren't Eve. Another line I don't hear mentioned is Royal Canin, the brand Eve eats (Canine Mature canned). She also gets a can of HIll's a/d once a day for extra calories. You never saw anything til you see a 16 year old dog dance for her can. Royal Canin is a good company that has numerous product lines including the veterinary diets we use at work, and no, they don't pay the vets to recommend it (neither does Hills), at least not here. As a kennel employee, I made our clinic change over to Royal Canin's intestinal low fat diet from Science Diet maintenence we used to feed in house to boarders who didn't bring their own food, because the RC product does not cause the variety of issues Hills did for dogs having to eat something new. It's a professional poop scooper's dream, and the dogs love it to boot. If I wasn't so pleased with the Exclusive, I'd look into their regular diets for my own dogs, but it ain't broke, so for now I'm happy. RC did have a recall issue with a couple of their products with wheat gluten, but they have resolved not to buy product from China anymore, so I was told. Purina has a deal with their retail stores that you buy 6 bags, you get one free (of whatever you use the most of, size and type). I use probably two 35# chicken and rice and one senior a month, so every two months, I get a free bag, not bad if you feed 7 dogs (not counting Eve). RC gives us a similar deal, buy three cases, get one free for employees, Hills does a two ten dollar coupon every so often, which I use on my cats for the food they love, Natures Best Ocean fish dry cat food. I think I feed the best I can for what I can afford and I do sometimes suffer feed-guilt when this topic comes up, but I know there's crap out there. Funny thing though, I've seen plenty of dogs in my life who ate what I'd never feed and they lived to be old old dogs with no real nutritionally brought on issues.

I put a high value on 'biddable' when I chose a pup (Simon) from a dog I really liked, Tom Lacy's old Imp. Jill. Jill had a lot of presence on sheep, she moved them easily and was fearless, but her willingness to be asked to do for her handler, to go maybe even against instinct for him, and her "I love this man and would do anything for him" attitude sold me. She was a good trial dog, and handled farm work as well. Like putting a stronger bit on a horse that's running with you, I find now that my ability to influence Simon when I have no idea what I'm doing myself stops him and he's lost any hope of deciding what he wants to do vs. what I want him to do. Does that make sense? His being super biddable (which he gets from his mama) gives me more power than I deserve...in other words, I have screwed him up. I'm learning, but it made me so sad for my ignorance and it's affect on this poor dog. Now that I know 'biddable' better, maybe next time, I won't abuse it.