Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke

I work for a vet hospital...we have only lost one animal in the last seven years under anesthesia. One young cat, no pre-anesthetic bloodwork authorized, just a routine spay, and this year an elderly lab with a bleeding tumor in his abdomen--a grave risk in any case. I understand your concern, but it is as safe as it can be these days, and we do at least 3-5 anesthetic procedures every day. Go with your vet's recommendations about preliminary testing, and while I know you're going to worry, it'll be okay. I have never heard BC's were any more sensitive than other canines, at least about gas anesthesia. Ivermectin, sure, but not anesthesia.

OT_ Joan, thank you for the sweet card...one to you in the mail. Luke came back in the mail ysterday with a little sheep sculpture from Eleanor Peavy (SWEET PEOPLE!), and he's in the truck now, riding in the front seat. I'm nuts. Your kidness, and the entire BC community's as well makes this so much more bearable. I'm proud to be part of such a wonderful group of compassionate people. Hugs...

Karen Lacy's working on setting up a testing with Dr. Chu at her clinic/trial in Sept. (10/11?)The clinic is more of a health thing with CERF testing, microchipping, tatooing, etc. Check out their website, www.lacysbordercollies.com for more information; this will be in Central VA, New Kent County at their farm.

Or six $50,000 dogs...

We put the microchips in where I work...it's a BIG needle, 14 gauge, but we do a topical anesthetic (lidocaine) before inserting the chip. I can't recall any animals having any more reaction to it than to regular injections. We use AVID microchips, no particular preference to them, but they've done well by us. My first dog was chipped back in the early days of chipping, and his chip slipped under his chest because they didn't insert it into the muscle, just under the skin. On my animals now, I have them tatoo'd as well and I have "AVID MICROCHIP" tatoo'd on their thigh. No more than that. Numbers are difficult to trace. And, keep that tatoo shaved regularly. If someone finds them, they should know to have them scanned for identification. I would have yours microchipped, but keep in mind, if lost and found, you're still counting on the person finding them knowing to look. Agencies such as animal control and rescues regularly know to check. I swear, one of mine have ever been hurt by microchipping. Go for it!

VERY important...remember, Border Collies keep going when they ought to stop because they think it's being asked of them. When we play with them, they think WE need to play, it gives us joy and that's their reward (if they can't do stock work), not unlike bringing us sheep. Wobbly legs and confusion are emergencies. Mark is right about allowing them to cool off in water (not cold..tepid is best) and allow evaporation to take away the heat. SOmetimes they'll get too mentally gone to seek out the cool they need, and you need to do it for them. They are smart dogs, but they are driven.

I THINK...RC Tomlinson told me it was the same as his Dat. Don't hold me to that...and he also told me what it was, because I admired his dog when he came up to the top to help set out Novice field at the Bluegrass, but a lot happened after that and my brain got fried (shock). Nice, nice dogs...

You ARE smart. Anybody with a brain like that, humility, patience, huge work ethic...you NEED to go to college and make the most of your earning years. Add me to the pile of people who made college a minor and animals a major (horses and work in a boarding kennel and learning to earn dollars for shaving other people's cockers-LOL) and today I make $13.88 an hour (I think) at 46, cleaning kennels, still grooming, assisting vets and technicians. Is this wrong? Heck, no, I'm happy, but I would have more $$$ probably if I took my way above average SAT's and applied myself to my studies. I went to college 6 years, mostly part-time, got within 12 credits of finishing, but I gave it up for my job at the kennel. Dumb. You can do better. I like you. You can be an honorary member of my 4H club ANYTIME.

Well, I'd love to think you were my 4Her, as ambitious as you are, and obviously determined to make a good judgement about what your next dog will be. I'm astonished that you own seven cocker spaniels, with all the grooming that goes on with them (I'm a groomer and a 4H leader!)and know you probably do well with them. Cheerleading, conformation, obedience and agility are a lot on one plate. College ought to be one of those things that you do as your primary "job" when you get there. Unfortunately, what we're saying is that Border Collies are a job in themselves, and you are looking at a dog who will last for you until you are, say, 25-28, in your salad days, looking at jobs, paying for your first private home away from home, and this dog will need every bit of your free time to be sane. Siblings won't train it like you can, next thing you know, it'll bond with your dad (they adore most the person they work for and respect for giving it the attention they so need). As much as it will probably be the best choice for you down the road, a real challenge and very rewarding, the time isn't right. Being a 4Her, I know you are above average maturity-wise, and you know this too. You can wait. It'll be well worth it. Keep making the best better, if you know what I mean. (wink...)

I am enjoying this tremendously! And it's theraputic for me...Thanks to all for the sentiments about Luke and hugs, etc. I'm putting together a scrapbook with all the posts and some pictures to keep him alive forever. I was into horses first too (still am, living a double life!)I did Pony Club (SAM!!! I knew it!), combined training and some Hunter stuff, broke ponies for a couple of older horsewomen (Sue Meredith, Woodlands Ponies of Lawrenceville, VA and Mary Barnes of Ashland) and when Mary died in her 80's, I fostered all of her ancient horses/ponies til the last one died last year at 33. I am a 4H leader, have 13 horses/ponies, my "kids" do CT and dressage mostly. I ride some, ought to ride more, but these DOGS came into my life in 1993, when I had to put down a Lab mix I had who was my constant companion and Karen Lacy came into my life (I'm a pet groomer by trade) to have her three dogs groomed becuse she needed it and wasn't feeling good enough to handle it at the time. I bathed Rip, Midge and a third one I can't remember. Those two dogs in particular were such wonderful dogs to work with, just getting groomed, that they made a huge impression on my aching heart, Carly being gone all of three days. It was fate. I asked her if she had any puppies...I was considering a purebred dog to do obedience/agility with, and Border Collies were down there on my long list. Well, she had two. One was spoken for. What do you think that made me do. Yes, buy the other one. I left him at Karen's for a week to get over the insanity of what I did. That was Calvin, and he was the best puppy in the whole world, and showed me what Border Collies were about. Because I had a SHEEPDOG, I ended up at an instinct testing thing in Petersburg hosted by a Collie club, and they had this strange man there who told it like it was and had no hands (Roy Johnson). Scared me to death, but he was kind, said my dog was okay, and I ought to look into this thing, herding. I ended up signing up for a Jack KNox clinic in Edgewater MD., met a lot of really fabulous people, one string-bean guy who drove up there from Abingdon and slept in his car in March (David Henry) with his very young dog Holly. Jack told the host, Virginia Dove, that he liked my dog, and he was very promising, but stuck with me, he was stuck being a very strong dog who never lived to meet that potential. The next year, Karen told me she liked what I was doing with Calvin, and gave me this puppy from her breeding of their Eve and Vergil Holland's Kip, who I took, at great risk to my marriage, and named Luke. Luke was quieter than Calvin, and had a delightful, easy way about him with sheep, and it was much easier to work with him than Cal. In the end, I found it amazing how much I knew about horses applied indirectly to the stock work, and learning about stock and dogs has made me a better horseman. I started out volunteering at trials in the pen to learn more about sheep, and eventually found that, without sheep, I was not going to learn enough to competitively trial, and I liked the pen work so much, it has become my thing. Having the horses still makes it equally hard to do more, and I am constantly reminded that I have them (by my husband who takes care of them) when I take off to go do dog trials. I am really torn between them. I have recently gotten into Natural Horsemanship, I think because of the dogs and sheep. I am blessed;I have Luke's mother Eve, Simon, Beryl, Turk, and rescue dog Pearlie, all the Border collies I never would have had if I hadn't met Karen when I needed a puppy that day. AND I agree, these BC people have been tremendous to me in my journey, so many people, big hats and little ones. I look forward to continuing this journey, even though it is inevitably going to have it's ups and downs.

I knew what you meant Eileen and of course, you are right; I was on the novice field Wednesday through Saturday, Open Sunday, so I only got to have the Texas sheep Friday and Saturday, after they had been worked through once on the Open course. I heard it was tough. They settled well for Bill and I by then. Two days made a big difference, and I think they all handled well for everyone, top and bottom, Sunday. Basically, you're right about the faceless internet thing. I tried to state that those were my observations and Eileen better articulated observations; I guess my comments were more opinion after all, based on my rudimentary knowledge about sheep handling and dogs. I like to hang at the top to avoid opening my mouth and feeling like a fool about what I think I see going on. Oops! Now i feel like a cyber fool. Ha Ha...still not as bad as feeling ignorant in person! Thanks Sam...Luke was my partner in everything I did, and I think I need to back off dog trials for a while and get my emotional priorities back together. Yeah, I know he could have been kicked by a horse at home, or worse, but maybe this whole week has been a message I'm supposed to be heeding. I have a lot to think about on the long lonely drive home today. What am I doing this for? I have one less dog that I could be riding home with if I didn't come here in the first place and 99% of that dog's life didn't involve putting sheep together in little bunches for people to run around a field with their dogs. Day Three without Luke. I know tomorrow will be better.

I'd like to add a bit about something I saw yesterday at the top. The sheep I handled this week were pretty good sheep. None were sour or gave me the impression they were too "done" with dogs. Sometimes I get the impression that some sheep are used to beating dogs (and people) and some might have had a lot of harrassment that makes them overly panicky. Vergil's were sane and sound sheep. The Texas sheep are reportedly the offspring of hte sheep used here last year. They are really stressed, I guess by their last couple weeks' experiences, BUT they are honest and appear to give back what they get. I really liked handling them. They were far easier to read than the sheep at most trials, which is why I'm here. I love this stuff. The dog has to be confident (the sheep aren't!) and powerful enough by presence alone and quick to cover them ALL (distance!) and give them time to think what's being asked of them (tick tick tick goes the clock!), I saw one astounding piece of work at the top yesterday--I radio'd down after to see who the handler was--by Chuck Dimit's dog. One sheep broke away and came back by itself and hung by the corner where the sheep rejoin the pen if exhausted up top. His dog came up and instead of what usually happens (two things, dog grabs sheep or dog sits there waiting for somebody to tell it what to do), it (girl, boy dog?) quietly got behind this single upset sheep and waited for it to move. Soon, the other two sheep came flying up and they were all up there, wanting to get in the pen. This dog got behind them and found it's balance point, and eased them back onto the field and through the course. I never heard a handler's whistle and he surely couldn't see the dog with the sheep tight in the corner up there. I love to see this stuff. I know he probably didn't get the best score for the "offline" fetch, but it was definitively outstanding work on the part of that dog. Good stuff. These are good sheep, if given a chance to think. Then again, I'm not an open handler, so it's just my personal observation.

Thanks Robin, Kathy...day one has passed. This is just awful. I can't stop thinking about it and seeing it and missing him. I want to quit my job, quit trials, quit having dogs, go home, not go home. I cannot for the life of me understand why. It was that quick and SO nobody's fault, including mine, the driver's, Luke's--nobody's. It just happened. I am sorry to do this here, but I can't talk about it with anybody without losing it and making both of us miserable. I want to stay here and finish the trial, but I feel so uncomfortable around anybody but sheep (I even make my dogs miserable, they're all confused) I hate to try to do Sunday. I'm free to go right now, but not looking forward to driving eight hours away from here crying my eyes out every ten minutes. I'm skipping the banquet because I can't face anybody. I know this will get better, it just hurts so bad right now. When the water truck came up today, after a couple of minutes, all my dogs just started howling. THAT was bizarre and unnerving.

Mandy, I know that story...I work for a small animal vet practice and had to explain the BAER test to the two docs when trying to determine about Beryl's issues. One thought I meant BAERMANN testing for lung parasites "what does that have to do with evalutating her hearing" (no joke, and I respect these two people). I too would like to know about when or if she had training issues a few years back that might have been explained by her losing her hearing. Pat, Beryl is such a tremendous dog, if I can get her to hear me send her (she tries to be real careful that it's okay to go out) the one thing she still does is gather and fetch beautifully, yes, a silent gather for sure. Driving seems impossible because as she goes further out, and her big ol' ears are pointed forward to her sheep, no "reception". Same thing if there's a lot of distracting noises, sheep related. Pen work is not going too well. She's with me for life, she's earned it. I hope I can keep her safe. I don't have the greatest confidence right now, but this too shall pass.

I am very sad to report that I did need a vet at the trial, and I am extremely overwhelmed right now because I lost Luke in a freak accident today. He was helping me round up leapers at the top of the novice field (why he was not tied). The water truck came up and refilled us, I was loading the chutes and he got under it to cool off. When they left, he didn't get up in time. A vet was called and she was up there in 5 minutes to put him down. I hate myself for havng him out there, for knowing he was a slow riser and liked to get under trucks, for causing a whole bunch of people to have an absolutely miserable day. I thank God for the help and the kindness I have been shown, and for these wonderful friends who have shown me such compassion. I love you all and I am so sorry to have this happen at this trial. Luke was the best dog I ever had. He got me into this thing I love to do...if not for him, I would never have gotten into herding or pen work the way I have. He was goofy, sweet, protective, driven (to play ball or sticks or mess with cats or sheep) and he has been my constant companion for the last eleven years. He wasn't a "great" or even good stockdog. Well, maybe he was more good than bad. He just wasn't of the same calibre as the dogs we sort sheep for, but he was a great PR man for the non-BC people we met along the way. He didn't deserve to die like this, but part of me knows God has His reasons. I am so very sorry for the folks who had to witness it...it was no one's fault but mine. I'm sorry. I'm just so sad and so far from home and don't know how to get through this.

I want to also thank the Fettermans for hosting this clinic at their trial. Many folks know of Dave's dog, and can only imagine the heartbreak of working with a dog only to find that they would do for you if they only knew what you wanted. I hope people would try to consider this as a possibility when an animal begins to have trouble coming through for you. As I understand it, Dr. Chu is a long way off from being able to determine genetic links to this problem, if it is found to be a concern with our dogs. I brought Dave's dogs' dam (Beryl) to be tested, as well as a 4 year old out of her (Heather Lacy) and a six month old (Jane Lacy Crowder). Beryl had reduced hearing in both ears, but she is 9 years old. It would have been definately interesting to see what her hearing was at 5 years old, when perhaps she may have begun to have problems. Heather and Jane both have no problems, and we will endeavor to stay with the program, so to speak, and have them tested every year. I am anxious to see where this takes us. Meanwhile, Beryl hears okay up close, and suits me fine as a pen dog. Thanks again to Dave for his efforts to keep our minds open to the possibility that our "bad" dogs might be giving us all they've got to work with.

And thanks, Steve. I'll always remember your grin, and helping me out one more time.

Thanks all for the information...he had two teeth out, and a small mass on his tongue (one stitch!-yuck)and seems good to go this afternoon. I was thinking yesterday, it seems appropriate to have a vet on call for trials, and I know a lot of DVM's run dogs, but staying far from home and needing help on a weekend (as trials usually are) can be troublesome. Good to know most trials have somebody to call!

I'm heading to Lexington next week for the Bluegrass, and wouldn't you know it, one of my dogs has a problem to keep me from having a carefree trip. My Luke has a probable tooth-root abscess, being extracted tomorrow, and in his pre-anesthesia bloodwork, he has a couple of values that worry me, such as a HCT of 33% (last month it was 40%-routine old-dog workup, just coincidental). I lost a dog from Immune-mediated hemolytic anemia a couple of years ago, so low PCV's get me agitated. He's an arthritic 11 year old, no worries otherwise, and I have to take him along. Leaving him at home with my husband (who isn't thrilled to have the ones I AM leaving) is not an option. So, if I bring along his medical history, and I get hyper, does anybody have any suggestions who to call there if I need? I can call them before I leave if I need to (GOSH! I AM hyper, listen to me). Many thanks!

Thank heaven I now know the origin of the pronunciation of ewe being yoe. When I first heard Tom Forrester use it, I thought he was referring to them as hoe's (not the kind you weed with) when things weren't going well for us up top. 'night, ya'll.

I use AVID, it's the only one we instill in this Vet. hosp., and we have had finds with the AVID chip, reuntied owners, and as an aside, when I microchip a dog, I have a tatoo done as well that says "AVID MICROCHIP" so nobody has to go figure what the number represents.

Those pictures were terrific! I hope Barbara saw the one of Jessica! Boy, she saved the day getting the sheep off the pen area to Craig that weekend. IF SHE WANTED TO, she would be the one to watch at trials.

On weighing...I was curious about how "off" I was so I haltered a lamb and dragged it in to work (vet hospital) and weighed it on the doggy scale. I was off by 10 pounds. (79#, I thought around 70) Close, but no cigar!

Funny, Beryl was in in August, and she's in now (not funny)...eight months here too. Lord help me through this.

FYI...anyone living in central Virginia, a segment about Tom Forrester and his dogs will be aired on PBS (WCVE)"Virginia Currents" this Thursday night, April 21 at 8pm. I understand it will be replayed sometime over the weekend as well, and possibly on sister PBS stations that air the program.