Kelliwic Border Collies

How are you "emotionally invested" in a puppy you haven't even seen yet? Get your money back. For what it's worth, many pups from working parents ARE chosen very early, generally based on sex or markings. Each pup in a well bred litter has an equal chance of becoming a good working dog, and since no one can identify the talented pups at 8 weeks old, prospective owners might as well choose the pup that appeals to them. Just wanted to give a heads up that if you follow through and choose a different breeder, that part of the equation may remain the same.

BC Boards members, A silent auction will be held at the PA State Championship Stock Dog Trial in Hop Bottom, PA on June 15 and 16, 2013 to benefit the 2013 USBCHA National Sheepdog Finals. Please consider donating something to the auction. Any kind of sheep or sheepdog (or cattledog) item may be donated. Examples of items donated to past Finals benefits include artwork, books, DVDs, field rental time, private lessons, useful dog gear, sheep equipment, and so on. Perhaps even a stud service from a nice working dog might be donated. What interesting item can you offer to help benefit this year's Sheepdog Finals? If you haven't anything to donate, please consider bidding on an item. Please message or email me directly to let me know what you plan to bring to the trial. Thank you for your support! Megan Quigley

Best NAME ever! Good luck getting her sound again, and enjoy raising her!

From my perspective, you don't seem to have a problem speaking about how much research has been done to date (even though it is not your research), stating things such as (and these are generalizations; I am not going to sift through 45 pages of posts to find exact quotes, although there are probably several posts from you on each page)... "Many dogs have been studied," "several vets are involved with the study," "training has been ruled out," "physical reasons have been ruled out." Etc... Yet when you are asked for specific information in support of your own statements (ie, "What information has been learned?" among other questions put to you in the last few pages), your out is always "Look it up yourself." or "Ask Linda Mecklenburg directly." You appear--from my perspective--to be rather inconsistent as to whether you have answers or not. How is it that you can make so many claims about the thoroughness, usefulness, accuracy of, and scientific basis of the study, (etc.) and so on...until people ask for facts? Please provide the answers people have asked for. I don't think they are out of line asking you for that information, since you've provided so much information on this syndrome already; why are you holding back now? I'd think you'd be enthused about sharing what's been learned, since--from my perspective--you seem (but maybe you're not) quite intent on proving the usefulness and validity of such a study and the possible development of a genetic test, if ETS appears to be genetic. This is my opinion and perhaps no one else agrees with me, but I'm going to stick to it because I believe it, so it's true (for me). And please don't question my motive for posting, because my motives are my own and no else will understand and perhaps I don't care to share them. But I really do want to know the answers.

Sure--working towards goals may not have anything to do with ego, and can be a enjoyable journey for both dog and handler. But competition is about ego. It may be to a greater or lesser degree depending on the individual, but if the experience of a trial (agility or sheepdog or whatever) is not about competition, one might as well save the money and stay home. The experiences of socializing with friends and enjoying watching others' dogs run can be had at training clinics, "fun days" or matches, or at gatherings even less formally organized. [ETA: Or at trials without entering your own dog.] Anyway, that's how I see it, which I'm sure is not how you see it ...carry on with your regularly-scheduled programming.

Kristine, you've mentioned this basic idea several times. But if people (some people) are competing for reasons other than ego, then slower times, dropped bars and NQs wouldn't matter, would they?

Thanks, I missed that bit of info!

Ron Madison is a great guy and a nice quiet handler with some very good dogs. I am sure if you continue with him, you'll get good mentoring. I only looked at the first minute or so of the second video, and agree that it may be help to put a few faster sheep in the pen (or mix one or two faster sheep in with the others), but I trust that Ron is making a good judgement based on what he sees in the dogs. I don't understand what you mean in the above quotes. Regarding your first comment: How would the dog have more drive for the sheep and idea for the job at hand if you don't go back? Regarding your question: What do you mean as far as bringing "them to stock while waiting to work livestock with a trainer?" Are you asking whether or not they should watch someone else's dogs work while waiting for your turn? Or are you talking about bringing them somewhere to watch stock even if you don't have lesson that day? Thanks,

I perceive a general AVOIDANCE of other-than-black/tri by most working stockdog folks--at least in my area. How could a dog of color--an appropriately working-bred dog--distinguish itself on the trial field when people seem to go out of their way NOT to have one? For example: red happens. Unless the breeder is so biased AGAINST red that they genetically test sire and dam to ensure there are never any carrier to carrier breedings (or know based on pedigrees that both parents potentially carry it), it is going to happen. But where are they? Of course there are fewer red dogs than black, but the numbers on the trial field seem disproportionate (just think of how many chestnut horses there are in most breeds!). There are some red and some merle dogs in my area, by the way; I'm not saying there are none. And to reiterate, I'm not at all defending breeders who breed for any reason other than working ability or who "tout their dogs that are bred for color." It seems to me that people are quick to make a judgement about the owner of a not-black dog, making an assumption that the person chose it BECAUSE of its color, or assuming that the dog is probably out of questionable/sport breeding, or any number of silly things. Toddy Lambe won the Supreme with the red Craig several years back, but I don't know the colors of the recent winners you may be thinking of, Sue. And same as for everyone: my perception is my reality.

This is as it should be. Dogs can't read whether their papers say "American Kennel Club" or "American Border Collie Association" across the top. We can hope this will become the norm. I find it ironic that while stockdogs folks are quick to criticize the show Border Collie folks about their cookie cutter black & white rough coated dogs, ever-reminding them of the variety of appearance in the Border Collie, they (the stockdogs folks) seem to be the last to accept any variance in the breed beyond white factoring and smooth coats. I am not excusing non-working breeders who make mating choices based on color, or those who sell "colorful" puppies for more money. Just pointing out that in the stockdog community, there still seems to be quite a bit of color bias, which is why I edited my quote from Sue's post so tightly. I've only got black and white dogs, but even I feel there is a color bias.

Hi Robin, I agree with the folks Julie suggested. If you want to PM me with your city, I may be able to make additional suggestions. I don't know one of the names you posted, but I'd stay far, far away from the other as far as lessons/training.

Hi LittleFoxx, You said: But yet, I am not sure whether you traveled to Kansas to watch them work, but it sounds like it? Or maybe you watched a video. At any rate, if you are able to travel to Scotland, perhaps you could make similar farmsitting arrangements for a day or two at a time to break away to a trial now and then. Perhaps you could post videos on your website of your dogs working. It only seems fair to potential puppy buyers that if you say your dogs work and it's something that you consider to be a selling point, that you have some means of showing what quality of work your dogs are capable of. As others have said, there are good working dogs who are not trial dogs. However, getting your dogs out to a trial is putting your money (or your time) where your mouth is. You are showing your regional "neighbors" (in sheepdogging) just what your dogs are capable of under unfamiliar conditions. Also already said (but also worth repeating)...somehow, many full-time farmers/ranchers/shepherds do manage to get to a few trials during the year. You said you've seen some trials in the UK, so I'm sure you have some idea of what's being asked of the dogs. Great news! One of the best trials in the country, the Bluegrass Classic, is in your area this week! Maybe you could break away to go watch a day of the top dogs (or even of the Novice dogs), and ask yourself where your dogs' working ability fits in compared to the dogs in the trial. It may help answer your question about the "value" of trials. Bluegrass Classic

You said earlier that your breed has a lot of merles in it. There are no good working solid color dogs to breed to? Is there reverse discrimination against the solid color dogs in Hangin' Tree dogs, the way most working Border Collie folks would usually take a solid color dog over a merle? I don't mean my questions to sound rude, I'm just having a hard time with this idea, probably because I am not that familiar with HTCs. Thanks,

Nicole, you had to put down a pup from an Irish-marked merle to a minimal-white merle cross. You then repeated the cross, and put down a second pup. But you believe that merle x merle isn't that bad, it's all in how much white factoring there is? Did I misunderstand what you're saying? This makes absolutely no sense to me.

Some breeders use this method quite regularly. Others feel that genetic diversity is extremely important. Have you even looked at the market for working Border Collies? Generally, breeders of well-bred stockdogs do not charge big bucks for pups, even pups out of top sires and dams. Logically, a trained dog would be more expensive than a pup, possibly even big bucks, depending on the degree to which the dog is trained or if it's got trialing success. What things do you see in your bitch's working ability that makes you "pretty sure" she is good? What about the prospective stud makes him a very good male to breed to? Are you experienced enough to be able to evaluate this? I couldn't tell from your posts, but it sounds as though this is your first Border Collie, or at least the first one you've worked on livestock. If you don't have experience, do you have a mentor experienced in working stockdogs, who is in agreement with your assessments? ETA: I see Sue posted similar questions as I was fiddling around composing and editing my post.

Good luck! I'm sure you'll get many posts and PMs with suggestions.

Piper, I'd guess the above pups would have been ready to go home a week or two ago. Did the puppy not work out for you? Or are you planning to raise two puppies at the same time?

Wow! Those dogs sure have some fancy names! Probably because: Too bad not one photo documents how great those registered "Working Stock Dogs" are at working stock.

Years ago when I was trying to come up with a "kennel" name and "farm" name--if you can call one Border Collie and a dream a "kennel" or a "farm"! --I wanted something Gaelic, or at least Celtic, in tribute to my Irish heritage and the Border Collie's Scottish (borders) origins. However, the spelling and pronunciation in Irish and Scottish Gaelic are pretty confusing, and besides, I hardly know anything about the languages anyway, so I figured it would be more sensible to settle for something Anglicized. I've also got a casual interest in the King Arthur legend, and when I learned that one of the locations of King Arthur's court is called "Kelliwic," it seemed to immediately fit what I was looking for. In my opinion it has a Celtic "flavor" to it, but it's pronounced basically phonetically. Some sites say that Kelliwic/Celliwig translates as forest grove (which I like the idea of), though from what language never seems to be mentioned; Welsh or Cornish, I assume. I also liked having an Arthurian connection without an overt Camelot reference, since Camelot is pretty commonly used in dogs and especially in horses. I get called "Kelli" sometimes on message boards and somewhat more often in email by folks who don't know me, which I find a little odd, because I sign my posts or emails either via sigfile or manually, but more than a few people have done it, so it's not just one person who may have zoned out while typing.

Hi Laura, How did it go?

THANK YOU Nancy and Laura!!

That's GREAT news!

Hi Eileen, I completely agree that I do not want to spread misinformation, whether it is of a good sort (thus creating false hope) or of a bad sort (people thinking no progress is being made). After my last post I received another email from my friend but had a serious issue to attend to and couldn't follow up here earlier than this evening. My friend emailed me: This says something different to me than "the test will be available in 6 months," and I suspect it means something very much like what Mark suggested. In my opinion, it's easy to see how people--meaning both people who heard Dr. Neff at the Finals, and people who heard him at the other event in October--might think that the test would follow very quickly on the heels of pinpointing the gene. I just wanted to follow up to provide what clarity I could (perhaps I just muddied it a bit instead!).

My friend just checked in with me and said that Dr. Neff stated that they are close (about six months away, as of Oct 2009) to having a DNA test for adult-onset deafness. When it comes to testing for epilepsy or sound sensitivity, they have a long way to go. I am confident that my friend is savvy enough to have understood the presentation, and also had personal motivation to pay close attention, as she's got a dog with adult onset deafness and another who is epileptic. ETA: She also has a sound sensitive dog as well as a "control" dog and had blood drawn and participated with all four for the study.

Hi Leslie, Cheryl has always let us decide as a group what we'd like to work on or discuss. So, if people just need to work on specific things with their dogs, that's what we work on. Or if people want to work on handling (as at a trial) for example, we work on that. We usually have a range of different levels of experience for dogs and handlers. It's always been very informal and very fun.