Pipedream Farm

ROTFLOL quick witted as usual

If presence and power are the same thing, than color can dictate the power of a dog. Sheep are more influenced at a distance by a mostly black dog than a mostly white dog.

Dave has definitions I'd essentially agree with. I see presence as how the sheep perceive the dog and power as attitude and confidence of the dog. They often go hand-in -hand, but not always. Dave gave a good example of presence; sheep fearful of the dog. Presence dictates how far off that dog must work from those sheep. I view power as confidence and attitude of the dog as it approaches the sheep. Sheep know a powerful dog means business and move off, but a powerful dog might work closer to sheep than a dog with lots of presence. Hopefully this makes sense.

Even among our smooth-coated dogs there is variation in what I'll call coat thickness. We have one that has what I'd call a "skin-coat", she has a very short & fine coat that it lays very close to her skin. On the other extreme we have one that has a short but very thick coat; there is so much fur the fibers stand straight out from the skin. Perhaps, this might be better described as the thickness of the undercoat. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

There have been reports that some rawhides may contain heavy metal residues from the tanning process: chromium (III not VI), lead, or arsenic. These reports recommend US sources of rawhide over cheaper foreign sources. I have not been able to find an article that actually measured the levels of heavy metals in rawhide chews so I'm not sure if these reports stem from actual contamination or possible contamination because some tanning techniques use heavy metals. ------------------ Mark Billadeau [This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 01-06-2003).]

Deb, weather permitting the DIY Fun Trials are Jan 11 (NN, PN & Ranch) and Jan 25 (Ranch 7 Open). I'll email you a flyer tonight. We have very limited hard-surface parking and the trials may be postponed a week if the fields are too wet for parking. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

Hey Deb, nice to see you have some "free" time. Thanks for helping keep us all safe and free! Are you going to have time to come down for our DIY Fun Trials? We'd love to have you. ------------------ Mark Billadeau [This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 12-31-2002).] [This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 12-31-2002).]

Christie, very interesting stuff. Please keep us informed. Unfortunately (or fortunately) we don't have any ivermectin sensitive dogs. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

I agree with Bill F, I don't care if the winning run was scored 98 or 88. What I do care about is having the judge be consistent in his/her point deductions for all runs (which I believed most try to be) and that we are given enough time to complete the run without having to run the sheep around the course. Ya know, move the sheep in a "workman like manor". Lines are important but I feel more emphasis should be placed on how the sheep are treated while on course. I think if scoring is done with the concept of "workman like manor" in mind (straight lines and low stress on the sheep) herding as a sport will continue to be an acceptable (not necessarily perfect) venue for selecting breeding stock. IMHO from my small amount of experience ------------------ Mark Billadeau [This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 12-19-2002).]

"......I don't believe working pups should be in any other homes other than working unless they turn out total dud which takes few years, then they could be placed in homes of other sports." Glad this isn't everyone's opinion other wise I know I'd never gotten started in herding and I suspect herding as a sport would not be growing as it is now and might even eventually die off. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

Sam, the only time I've ever talked to him was when Renee and I were looking for our first BC. He wouldn't sell one to us since we were not a working home. Oh well, things sure have changed. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

Kim, I've just been wondering how many of the border collies that show sensitivity to Ivermectin were in fact a reaction to an unintentional overdose via Heartgard plus "sheep cookies" from Ivermectin treated sheep. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

Have you talk to Mike Neary at Purdue U ( http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/sheep/personnel.html )or Bruce Fogt for help in finding someone in your area? ------------------ Mark Billadeau [This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 12-18-2002).] [This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 12-18-2002).]

Bill, do you use Ivermectin for your livestock? I would think you'd avoid its use altogether if you're worried about sensitivity to it in your dogs, since your dogs can injest it via your livestock's feces. Just a thought. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

Here are some interesting web pages on Ivermectin: General information: http://petplace.netscape.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=1525 Pharmacokinetics: http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/dxendopar/drug%20.../ivermectin.htm tells the drug is excreted in feces and has a 1/2 life of 24 - 36 hrs. Somewhere else I read that a very small amount is metabolized by the liver. Toxicosis: http://www.abvt.org/iverm.html Gene that produces sensitivity: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/announcements/iv.../ownerInfo.html The reported sensitivities (scientific papers) talk about collies, collie crosses, and Australian shepherds; I've not seen "border collies" specifically listed but that doesn't mean sensitivity does not occur (just not reported in scientific papers). Based upon these papers (and others) Invermectic is cleared from the dog's body within a month, at least to below the detection limit of the analytic method used. This link shows that plot for injected Ivermectin in cattle, while the cattle dose is much higher (100x that of the dose for a dog) and a cow's system is different than a dog's it gives you an idea of how the drug level in the body changes over time. http://us.merial.com/Pdf/page_pdf/Comparin...e_in_Cattle.pdf Since the drug does clear for the body, changing to Interceptor shouldn't be a problem. Since the sensitivity appears to be genetic, I wouldn't expect your dog to develop sensitivity over time. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

Too cold???? Gyp (my young dog) and I won't get ourselves ready for trialing together if we don't go out and train. Besides, there's nothing like training a young dog to get you warm (or hot depending upon the training session). If you get cold while outside, try wool; it?s quite warm. ------------------ Mark Billadeau [This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 12-02-2002).]

Bill, thanks for the word of caution. Severe reactions can occur with any medication. Now we always watch our dogs closely after they've received meds, because both our puppies had an adverse reaction to one their vaccinations (not their first one). One puppy?s face got puffy and red and the other had a short bout of convulsions. Renee found out later that the brand of vaccine used has had reported severe reactions across many breeds. Now we make sure we use a different brand of vaccine and have had no problems. I believe the puppies reacted to one of the additives in the vaccine formulation. P.S. a 1% Ivermec solution is over 1000x more concentrated than a Heartgard tablet. ------------------ Mark Billadeau [This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 11-27-2002).]

There is a much cheaper way to prevent heartworms. http://www.geocities.com/theslsc/hartzvalleyfarms.html ------------------ Mark Billadeau [This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 11-27-2002).]

newguy, my wife's trial dog, Starr, matured late and like a light switch. Renee would come watch while I worked my first dog and she brought Starr along for something to do, usually play fetch. One day, Starr started howling while watching Duncan and I work the sheep. Starr had never really paid any attention to us before, now she was howling and frantically running back and forth. It was obvious she had turned on; I think she was at least 1.5 years old. Starr's pups have matured late too. Your call, if it were my dog I'd wait a month or two a try again. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

Bill, actually the pen we use is at our neighbor's (Mary Brighoff) place. She found the right hardware (I guess chain link fence hinge pieces) to use the attached gate hinges to hold the gates to one another, it was easier to describe the pen as tied. For the Oatlands SDT I built a wooden pen and Mary bought 8' sections of vinyl fencing and the posts. We attached the posts to the panels and we just slip the hollow posts over t-posts we pound in the ground. The vinyl gates were a bit expensive, but for running a trial away from home having light weight equipment is a plus. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

Phyllis, Bill's suggestions will work well for most of your training (we only have posts right now). But if you're planning on trialing, at some point you should get a set of gates and a free standing pen because stock will often behave differently when approaching panels and it's different to pen stock when they can run around the pen. For gates we've used pallets, homemade wooden panels, and 4' sections of vinyl fence panels. Our current pen consists of two 8' red tube gates (sides) and a 6' red tube gate (back) tied together at the corners. We have no gate on our pen (ran out of tube gates), but we're finding that learning to pen without a gate makes penning at the trials easier. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

Colin, thanks for the write-up on the finals. I was really glad when I called down to find about about the weather and everything there was OK. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

Bill F. I'm against banning dual registration, not for (or against) dual registration. I know it's subtle, but there is a difference. I've tried to lay out why I think banning dual registration is not neccessary to save the breed and why I think the ban will have significant adverse affects. You believe few breeders will take offence to the ban and will not leave the registry, I believe the number will be more significant. Both of us have formed our opinions based on what we believe and from the input of others around us. Neither of us has numbers to support our beliefs; therefore, neither of us can prove what will happen. Without input from a larger number of breeders, especially those who have the largest impact on our breed, the only way to find out what will happen is to test it. But that's a big step to take when you're only guessing what others will do. ------------------ Mark Billadeau

"There are ABCA breeders that have chosen to register their working border collies (as defined with the highest standard) to be better able to market their puppies they feel will not make the grade in herding to the AKC market." Not every puppy in a litter will make the grade. Registering the parents AKC helps market those "lesser" puppies. There are puppies in that same litter that will make the grade, but banning dual registration will exclude them from ABCA registration. "should ALL those dogs' offspring be excluded from the ABCA registry?" ------------------ Mark Billadeau

Bill G. Nice job wiht the cut and paste to drive home your point. Too bad you altered the meaning in the post. ------------------ Mark Billadeau