ShellyF

Thank you everyone. I did ask our vet. They think maybe very mild seizure and have said at this stage just to monitor the situation. And we will keep a close eye for sure. Our little guy definitely isn’t quite a normal border collie as previous posts have documented so maybe he has something going on. He is a sweetheart though and very much loved ❤️

10 hours ago, Bordercentrics said:

I wold have the vet check him out. It is very intermittent, but I wonder if it is some kind of seizure activity.

 

Kathy Robbins

Thank you. I will ask our vet  

3 minutes ago, Bordercentrics said:

I wold have the vet check him out. It is very intermittent, but I wonder if it is some kind of seizure activity.

 

Kathy Robbins

Thank you. I will ask our vet  

A couple of months ago our then 20 month old was resting quietly beside me while I was at my desk when he suddenly got up and went and stared at the door. I thought he wanted to go out but he just stood and stared at the open doorway and didn’t respond to me. After a few minutes he lay down and although made brief eye contact he seemed distant. He lay there staring for many more minutes. The situation didn’t repeat so I thought nothing more of it and thought perhaps he had just felt unwell for a moment. 
 

This morning he came in from a walk with my husband around the yard during which he had been his usual frisky self and peed and pooped as normal. Once inside his routine is to wait to have his harness off and then rush upstairs to look out the window. Instead he went and stared at the wall facing away from my husband and again didn’t respond to anything. After a few minutes he lay down, still looking away and just staring. After a while my husband was able to coax him out of it and he rushed upstairs as normal. 
 

Thoughts? Is he trying to tell us something or is this indicative of anything? 

Ours has not been the same after neutering. The vet is at a loss to know why. Could be border collie collapse. Our vet doesn’t think so. All other possibilities eliminated. Vet says some dogs just don’t know what to do without their testosterone. We have buttoned it down with our guy to knowing that all the bad behaviour comes with too much exercise and too much stimulation and this is after months and months of consulting and observations  

But here’s the good news. Having accepted that we have a 15 minute dog (that’s the most he can cope with) we have settled down to life. He now only spends our supper time (1.5 hours) in his crate plus from 9pm to 9am (he’s been the driver of that). We entertain him with things he can watch - like watching the bird feeder from the deck or looking out the window from ‘his chair’ or rides in the car to a beech for a small walk and paddle. 

We also give him a mellow (sometimes two) a day. It’s a very low dose of valerian but it seems to take the edge off for him being frustrated. 

He’s nearly 17 months now and coping sooo much better with leash biting and settling. Alternative commands are the best in those situations and something that allows him to still ‘move forward’ like ‘go get a tog’ Or ‘what’s that over there’ and then we can gradually calm him down. Good luck! 

Mr Merlin loves the water and when he’s excited he warbles like a bird haha!

you can ‘just’ hear a warble in this short video. Any other collie warblers out there? 

Thanks  

At six months this would have been out guy until we recognised that he was acting out because he was tired. I wouldn’t hesitate to give him time outs in the crate so he can rest. Our 15 month old is down to a couple of hours during the day and 12 hours overnight but at six months our vet said he would be resting in his crate more than he should be out! Spend quality time when he’s out - little training sessions, a small walk and run and play, food etc then back for a rest. 

Your pup will soon settle into your family routine and you’ll feel more relaxed. Also, we found that at 9/10 months the baseboards stopped being of interest. 

More sofas. The more we said ‘off’ the more of a game it became. So we just calmly put him in his crate when he got like that. Sometimes it was (and still can be) like wrestling a monster into the crate when he’s over tired but we just say ‘oh dear - clearly nap time’ haha!

He doesn’t wine in his crate anymore but when he did we just busied ourselves nearby and chatted or put the radio on but ignored him. He stopped soon enough

It will work itself out. Remember this is your home and it’s not cruel that he learns boundaries which will be his crate while he learns to cope with ratty tiredness. 

Good luck! 

For followers of Merlin you’ll know he can’t do too much physically or mentally (probs BCC) so imagine my delight when I took a chance and walked him down to the community mail box - 10 mins each way. 

On reflection we had a lovely normal walk! Just me and my pups walking pretty loose leashed, occasionally lying down for passing cars but able to now ignore some in favour of smelly ditch weeds lol! 

He’s really really exhausted now and that will be him for the day except for a yard walk and a wee game but for a short while it felt like normality   

Of all the issues we have - and we have our fair share lol - from a pup Mr Merlin had to come and sit by me for a brush before breakfast. It was more of a token brushing when he was little and of course a huge game but now he’s 15 months he not only happily sits while I brush him but if I put his breakfast down he won’t eat it but comes to me for a brush before he’ll go near his food. Despite all of that he’s always wriggly when I get near his tail so although I have the back of his ears well under control he sometimes gets mats in his trousers haha! 

Lol! Washed poop isn’t fun!

i’ve stopped taking treats now because for the times I need it they have zero impact - no matter how high value they are! But the rags in my pocket work provided I keep getting new ones. I’ve started to leave them stuffed in smelly boots as this increases their value hahaha! 

Funny! We have definitely seen improvement with a different lead too. We ended up getting the cheap and cheerful IKEA ones - the wider/thicker of the two. They are strong but lightweight and a good length to not tangle around feet. I think he finds life less irritating with it too. We also stopped carrying poop bags on the leash clips because they were a distraction. Back to stuffing pockets with loose bags! 

6 minutes ago, jami74 said:

We have a new favourite game! Based on our boy keep 'finding'  and bringing me the plastic things that go in the washing machine. We have four of them so he sits and waits inside while I hide them in the garden, then he goes and finds them one at a time and brings them back to me. He loves it. Another one is making him wait while I throw 3 balls, then he fetches them back one at a time. He finds it quite hard to sit and wait while I throw balls.

We are managing some longer road walks. Usually at very quiet times of the week/day, certainly not during busy times. Cyclists just don't seem a thing anymore, he is totally not interested in them since we did some training ignoring them with a volunteer. If I see one coming I'll ask him to sit and 'look at that' and he'll look all round trying to work out what he's supposed to look at while the bike goes past . This feels huge because for a long few months I worried about not being strong enough to hold him if he gave chase. Some cars are invisible to him, some cars he tenses up at and gets some support from me and occasionally a very noisy/fast vehicle provokes a reaction but the reaction is fairly stifled. People, are noticed and ignored if they are on the other side of the road or sat and looked at if closer. Still not great if people or runners want to brush past us (why do people do that?) but I plan routes to make sure we have enough space that it shouldn't happen.

Off lead stuff is limited, partly because at the moment I don't want a high level of physical fitness and partly because if he's off too long things start to go wrong. Places where I can see for a long way and know there is unlikely to be any distractions (kids/runners/bikes). It'll start with on lead walking and sniffing, then be off lead for a run, some recalls, some fetch, a swim and back on for some more walking and sniffing. I've found that when I let him off lead he waits for guidance from me, he wants me to give him a command and if I don't then he'll run off and do a big circle around something and ignore me. So he only stays off lead for as long as I can think of 'jobs' to give him. When I think there may be people walking with or without dogs I put a muzzle on him. He doesn't like it, but it means if I see people instead of panicking and trying to get to him and him wondering what all the panic is over the people and needing to go and bark at them I just cheerfully call him to come with me and he might start to go towards them for a look but then realises they're boring and comes away. I realise this is my issue but with the muzzle on I'm confident that he can't bite anyone and because I don't react, neither does he.

Hey that sounds like great progress! 

Funny you mention laundry. I got Merlin to sit while I said ‘put it in the box’ and proceeded to put an old cloth in the laundry hamper. I did this a few times and then got him to do it. He did and I made a big fuss. He got very excited then and it was hard to repeat. I left it until the next day and repeated and so on. So i’ll keep trying that. We do the ‘find’ game. He really enjoys it with the first toy we ever taught him to find haha! 10 mins of these sessions is about all he can cope with before he gets ratty. 

At the moment we are getting out in the boat about every few days. When we go he gets to swim (although he tends to dig in the water and make silly noises ???) for a bit and then a couple of hours ‘watching’. He keeps his eyes peeled for other boats and gulls. Back on the dock he sits on the boat and watches the world go by. He’s tied on so that if people come by and pet him he can’t quite lunge to lick them so he’s getting good at just standing there and wagging his tail while they pet and he loves it. No guarding or stress. 

After a day like this he can barely cope with anything much for a couple of days other than being at home with his ten minute walks on our property, a bit of playing and the odd game. 

We rarely walk him on the road but when we do we keep it short and he’s getting less reactive. He’s getting much less leash bitey but when we come back in from a walk it’s all he wants to do. We tried saying no and sit and he responds immediately by stopping and sitting and waiting patiently for a command but then goes for the leash again. We finally figured that it’s as if once inside, even after just ten minutes outside, he just can’t switch off the adrenaline immediately and he gets loopy for five mins so now we have a selection of old rags by the door. Once he sits and waits he gets rewarded with an old rag. He tosses that around for a bit and happily gives it up after a while. 

He’s still pretty much our 15 minute Merlin lol! 

My words of encouragement are that we are our own worst enemy and for me it’s been having the courage to insist that people don’t pet him until I say he is ready. Most people ignore me and so I have to get inbetween them and Merlin to make my point  

My good friend has followed my instructions consistently since he was a pup. She stands with her arms folded and we tell Merlin to go to his bed. He doesn’t at first but instead of repeating ourselves we all stand calmly until he does. Then he gets petted and then he gets excited and jumps up so we rinse and repeat. This week when my friend went to pet him in his bed (after all the waiting patiently for him to go there) he stayed and calmly let her stroke him without behaving like a goof ball. 

Well it’s taken nearly 14 months but we all agree it’s progress haha! 

He self settles if we manage things. 

Take this evening. He hasn’t done a huge amount today but I was out all morning and even though he’s not left alone he is my boy so he was restless while I was out. 

He was a complete rat bag this afternoon and I had to enforce a little crate rest. This evening after his suppertime nap he was pacing and not settling so I tied him up just out the front to watch the world go by and let him dig under his favourite tree. Now he is back inside after just an hour and has settled - also because I am sewing in another room. It’s like he knows he can go off duty. When two of us are sitting around trying to have a coffee - that’s when he become a tyrant lol! 

Ours would be on the go if we asked him too but then we’d all suffer! 

Frequently we try and increase things and it always ends up with him hardly coping at all. 

If he has zero stress from traffic or strangers he can romp happily with other dogs for 15/20 mins then he will stand aside and be very happy to leave. He definitely has a sweet spot. 

If he overdoes it then he needs us to take him to his crate whereas if he has just the right amount of ‘entertainment’ without too much physical or mental exercise he is quite content. 

It’s taking quite an adjustment of our lives to fit around what he can manage as we got a border collie specifically because we wanted the agility and activity. Yet as our daughter says, he’s the first dog they hadn’t been a rescue and we’ve ended up rescuing a dog that none of us knew needed rescuing! I am sure if someone else had chosen him he would have been in a shelter by now  

I am sorry if he does have it but on the other hand I do think it helps to know. I have learned to spot the triggers in our guy too. One thing is when he’s not coping and we are out he does this stress eating thing where he will repeatedly dip his head and scoop up gravel or dirt. 

My reaction now I know that means he is struggling is to stop, get him to sit and sit by him while stroking him gently. 

Friends really notice the difference in his abilities. I can remember at six months he would love to do several long runs in the back field but not any more. He looks keen for a bit but then gives up. Even playing tug he quickly gets exhausted. 

The worst things are visitors or wildlife in the yard that he’s not expecting. He gets excited and can’t cope with the adrenaline. We have to take him to his crate to rest. He tries to rugby tackle us on the way but then he sees his crate and rushes in. 

He stays quietly in his crate for 12 hours every night.  

He’s super super affectionate though  

We’ve had to really reign back any kind of activity for our little guy who is now 14 months. He is only like this when he is over tired and he can’t cope with more than 15-20 minutes of mental or physical activity but is much better when he’s entertained by having something to look at calmly or when exercise is just pootling about calmly at his pace. His ability to deal with things has decreased and neutering made it worse. Someone on this forum suggested that he probably has (and is self managing) Border Collie Collapse and having had every other possible cause eliminated by the vet, that’s what we assume too. 

An ideal day for him is pootling about on our boat, watching the world go by, some splashing in the water and then the drive home. He’s as calm as anything then. But if we tried to do with him what Border Collies are supposed to be able to do, it’s like having a toddler who’s been sleep deprived and is then told it’s time to leave the party! 

I don’t know if it helps but whether our guy or your guy has it or not, knowing that it might be excessive fatigue that they can’t cope with does help understand them better and might be worth trying. Some people advise tiring the heck out of a border and while some dogs may cope it would certainly finish ours off! 

Good luck  

Thanks @GentleLake 

I probably sounded a bit sloppy with my measurements lol! I did look up the weight and ground eggshell ratio and then for the meat that I give him I worked it back to cups but you are right, it’s best to measure properly for the meat being given. 

I do include organ meat and I should have specified that. I read tons of info and then made myself a list to stick on the fridge to make sure that I give him all the bits and bobs he needs. 

It’s been such a relief for me to see my little guy doing a couple of regular poops a day instead of four mounds of goop! At least I know he isn’t stressed with his gut  I am not against raw and he gets raw bones. 

I appreciate your reminder though  

This is Mr Merlin who’s nodded off on the sofa again - much to his own surprise haha! 

So I cook ground beef and occasionally other meats which I whizz up small. I add 1/4 tsp ground eggshell per 2 cups meat. Then a little cooked veggies. I toss in a few blueberries and seeds and random leftovers. For breakfast he has 2 scrambled eggs, a little bit of mixed seeds and a dollop of home made yoghurt. I mix in a little kibble sometimes if he’s done more activity or seems more hungry. 

Oh yes - really wanting to get it right - I see that  Have noticed improvement since I changed his diet. I cook all his food now - rarely give kibble. He is way below the trajectory that he seemed to be on as a pup. Vet said he would be a 55/60lb collie but his sweet spot is 50lb. He’s not food motivated but responds toys that we keep for treats. 

Same! We are noticing more things falling into place. As you know our respective dogs share a limited exercise capability although Merlin can cope with more ‘watching and mooching about’ now (still not much road walking or long runs). 

I think we will nickname him ‘fifteen minute Merlin’ as much more and he struggles. He had a 16 minute walk yesterday including some road work. He held it together and then released his stress on the sofas back home by hurling himself from one to the other. When he collapsed in a heap his lips were quivering uncontrollably. Yet with a day on the boat, messing about in the water and as much running and playing in the fenced area of the yard that he wants to do, he’s a happy boy. 

After a typical twelve hour nap in his crate (he doesn’t even ask to come out in the morning) he’s had his ten minute walk through our woods and is now quietly watching wildlife from the deck or snoozing on the sofa. 

His only ‘behaviour’ issues are when his adrenaline is up and he can’t seem to cope with it so we just accept that this is him and we are adjusting life to his needs  

Once when I was driving along a highway I drove past a particularly hazardous junction. I didn’t break or accelerate or speak or make any sound at all but as I watched my mirrors and other cars carefully I could sense in myself a slight adrenaline rush as I concentrated. At this moment Merlin started whining and fussing from his crate in the back. And as soon as we were passed the junction and I felt calmer myself he settled back down. It could only have been my alertness that he sensed. 

Still many similarities haha! Merlin is not a destroyer either. He too is very affectionate. The biggest naughtiness is that every evening he likes to run around with the oven glove but gives it up readily. And he always shoves things under the sofa and then scratches for them if he wants attention. We tend to get the toys out from under the sofa and put them away now rather than giving them back to him lol! 

He settles well unless over tired but will take an extra nap if needed. He gets very over excited with visitors. He knows he has to go to his bed before he can say hello and he does and when we ask visitors not to stroke him if he jumps they of course ignore us!

Outside we rarely take him for road walks or do things that involve too much running as he can’t cope but he too loves to watch. We have a sailing boat and now he’s getting over the initial excitement it’s tiring him in a nice way just sitting on the boat watching the world go by  

clearly Merlin and Jupiter are watch collies haha!