D'Elle

Mornings are not always good for me, but no matter what the presence of my dogs makes everything better. I truly don't think I could live without dogs. Under all circumstances, their presence in my life never fails to be a positive and beneficial thing for me.

That not only made me misty eyed, but also made me get up and go stroke my elder dog and tell him (for only the 20th time out of what will be dozens of times today) that I love him. Thanks, amc.

I love that. Years ago I got a sheepdog whistle. I didn't need one, as I never had sheep, but I had border collies and I thought I should try training them to the whistle. No matter what I did, though, I couldn't ever get the whistle to whistle. It's not as easy to use as it looks! I finally did train my dogs to do things to whistle signals, but of course nothing nearly as complicated and amazing as what a well trained sheepdog will do, and I use just an ordinary whistle. Whistle training a recall has come in very handy for me, though. On a hiking trail if my dog(s) were out of sight range, and we were in mountains where my voice might not carry, the whistle was always heard and my dogs would come back to me right away. The dogs I have now will do the same, although one is elderly enough to be kept on leash these days, as he is hard of hearing and the whistle confuses him as he is never sure the direction it is coming from.

Seriously?!? I could say the same back at ya. You obviously want to argue and to offend. I do not. I have been on this forum for many years. You have not. Most adults know that it is impolite and unwise to join a forum and immediately start criticizing and insulting long-term members of the forum, bragging, and putting themselves above others. Unfortunately you don't seem to know that, and you haven't figured it out yet. If you want to be a member of this forum that people will actually respond to, you might think about this. One more time, and for the last time: You are not stating a single fact when you make statements about my dogs. Or about anyone else's dogs here on this forum. You don't know any facts. You have NO idea what my dogs can do, or what the dogs of anyone else on this forum can do. You are making your own highly biased opinions based on nothing but a few sentences we have typed into this forum, and you are interpreting those sentences as you want to, seeing only what you want to see. You have not been on these boards long enough to know anything about any of the long time members here, or their dogs and you come bumbling in here like an overgrown child making wide pronouncements that you think put you in a good light and others in a poor one. You are wrong about this, on all levels. I don't know what you think is your purpose is in doing this, but suggest that you find something that is actually constructive to do instead.

That is so great to hear! Good for you, Gibbs!!

I am always interested to hear things like this. The way a dog's mind works and how they adapt and change and why is a subject of endless fascination to me. Whether or not I think I have figured out the motivation in the dog, it is always interesting to observe and to try to figure it out. I saw a fascinating conversation between two dogs yesterday and then had the chance to analyze it with the owner, who is knowledgeable about dogs. Dogs are my favorite subject. :-)

beachdogz, I think you are right. And this goes for any animal, including cats. If fascination is allowed, the next step is obsession, especially for border collies, and the next thing you know they are off and chasing the deer and your ability to call them so nicely in is lost. Not worth it to even experiment with that. Nuance is right....if they see it they will want it.

Nuance: I think it's going to be perceived as a slight towards another person (and/or their dog) by pretty much anyone if you say that their dog couldn't do well in your environment, but your dog would think it was a walk in the park to behave appropriately in theirs. Especially when you don't know the person, the dog, the training, or the environment. You are saying your dog is (fill in the blank) ...better....better trained....smarter...more adaptable...etc. Or, that you are a better trainer or have trained more things. In other words, "my dog can do everything your dog can do and much more!" This will be viewed as boastful and probably seen as insulting. Just letting you know. As you have now learned in this thread, many people train as you do, train the same things you do, and many people's dogs can do what yours does. There are many ways of having a dog perfectly trained for the environment they are in. I think your dog would not be likely to do well in my environment because your dog is not trained to be in my environment, but this is not something I would ever even think to say to another person because I don't see it as something great or to brag about or better than another, simply an obvious difference that doesn't even need to be mentioned. I am only saying it here because of what you said. In the same way, I wouldn't say that my clothing would work for your climate but yours wouldn't work for mine. I wouldn't even think of it, let alone think mine was better and comment on it. It's the same thing.....an obvious difference in environments and...so what? Neither is better, they are only different, and one never knows whether what works in one will work in another without learning a lot about it and probably trying it to see. So back to dogs: We each train our dogs (and buy our clothes, and cars, and so on) for what we need, want, and enjoy, and it's not a matter of better or worse, more training or less; it's not a thing to brag about or compare with other people or imply that yours is more adaptable, because it is only a difference in lifestyles. If my dog didn't do well in your environment it would only be because he has not been trained by you for what you specifically want in your environment, not because he doesn't have what you call "life skills". And if your dog were here and did not do well in my environment I would know that it was only for the same reason. We are both -- no doubt appropriately -- proud of our dogs. This is good. But I don't feel the need to compare others' dogs abilities negatively to mine.

thank you for this response, beachdogz.

I would very strongly question this as an approach to desensitizing a dog to thunder, although it could work for getting a dog used to gunshots if you started out far from the range and slowly over time moved closer. Of course, thunder and a gunshot are completely different kinds of sounds and also have a very different feeling to them. I sure can tell the difference between the two and dogs can as well, probably far better than we can. The two sounds are not even close to being alike, except that both are, or can be, loud bangs. Guns (unless used with a suppresser) are always loud bangs. Sometimes thunder doesn't even bang at all, only rolls and grumbles, and dogs who are sensitive to thunder will react to the grumbling, not only to the bangs. Also, thunder doesn't sound alone the way a gunshot does: one bang, then another bang, or a series of bangs but all sounding alike or extremely similar. Even at a gun range where different kinds of firearms are being used, the bangs won't resemble thunder. Thunder rolls and grumbles and changes and no two cracks of thunder sound exactly alike. Static electricity often appears with thunder, there is a huge difference in air pressure, lighting becomes different, and the air feels different in a thunder storm, none of which happens if a gun is fired. For these reasons, a dog can be sensitive to one without being sensitive to the other. I have known such dogs, including a hunting dog who was afraid of thunder but went hunting with his owner and had no problem with gunshots (in fact, thought it was fun because then he got to go get the bird, which he loved to do), and more than one dog who was OK with thunder but terrified of gunshots. Had some experience with this, as I have been in thunderstorm areas and around hunting, both for many years and have observed my own dogs and those of other people.

Yeah, I don't doubt her either, but on the other hand, these are puppies she breeds and sells, so I don't know how much she actually keeps track of whether or not they end up being thunder-sensitive. And even if they don't, what is to prove it is due to the recording? We don't know why some are sensitive and some are not. So it is all unknown. I think the only sensible thing is to work on conditioning the dog with the real sound, starting when the dog is very young when possible. One of my dogs, who is very thunder sensitive, responds with howling any time I play a video that has dogs or wolves howling in it, barks back at a barking recording, but doesn't respond at all if I play a video of a thunderstorm. In his case, it's the combination of the difference in air pressure, the difference in the light, and the thunder that spooks him, not just the sound - in other words, the whole thing. And, as we noted before, no recording can sound the same as actual thunder in any case. And interestingly, he doesn't howl back if I play a video of coyotes howling, nor does he howl back at coyotes outside the house, which we hear every day.

Since I live in a place that has major thunderstorms during monsoon season, this is precisely what I have been planning to do with my next puppy. Thunderstorm means fun, games, and good treats. thanks for your comments on startle training. All make good sense, and of course gun dogs are trained that way all of the time. I know a breeder who plays gunshots and thunder and other sounds for the puppies very quietly, 24 hours a day from birth, slowly increasing the sound as they get older until it is loud. She says it works. Her dogs are dobermans. I don't know if it actually works, since there's really no comparison between a recording and the thunder that rocks the house, especially the rip-roaring kind we sometimes get here. It feels entirely different too - the air is different in a thunderstorm and the dogs feel the ozone changes far more than we do. My one dog who dislikes thunder knows when it is coming 10 to 15 minutes before I hear the first little rumble. He started out as thunder- phobic but now knows just to come to me and hang out next to me and is not nearly so scared as he was at first.

If so, it dates me as well because I know who Walter Mitty is! LOL. And thanks for your comments. As urge to herd says, very well put.

Me too. thank you, Beachdogz. A little actual logic thrown into the conversation! How refreshing.

Yep. Me. My border collies learned to do this early on and were reliable to do this every single time. It was 100% because in their whole lives they never failed to do this while we were walking off leash in town. I know many people who train without leashes and who train without treats, and most of the people I know do not lure their dogs. Beachdogz is right, None of this is even slightly new, and your ways of training are not by any means unique. Scouring the internet will not find me, or the people I know, and is severely limited information. I personally don't base any opinion only on what I do or do not find online. That is some huge assumption you are making there, considering that you don't know me, or my dogs, or anything about how we live or what my dogs know or how they handle the world or in fact one single thing that would inform you to make that statement. I sincerely doubt that it is true, But I am not going to say I know it isn't true because I don't know you or your dogs, and to me making such statements about someone else and/or their dogs without having full information behind that statement is pretty arrogant. You know what your dogs do. You have no idea whatever about what my dogs do, and have no basis for such statements. It is a sign of lack of knowledge about people and dogs and the many, many different training ways and environments that they are in that you would make such a statement at all.

My dogs and I are acclimated to the heat. One has to be, to live here. summers it goes to 115 F (I think that's 46 Celsius), regularly and sometimes for days at a time. 117 sometimes. Anyone walking their dog on pavement or sidewalks without booties is cruel to the dog, but you very rarely see that. Vancouver is a much more temperate climate that here; in fact most places are less extreme than here. I laugh about it sometimes. For instance, in most places you plant things in the spring, right? Here, if you plant in the spring everything will die. We plant things in September or October, so you ignore planting advice. Many things that are general advice for most of the country - even much of the world - don't apply here at all. People who have never been here and come to visit sometimes feel as though they have landed on Mars. Naturally, this is one of the things I like about living here, although I am not sure anyone would ever say they like 115 degrees. On the other hand, things are warming up in many places lately. A friend in western Oregon told me it got to 115 last summer where he is, and that is completely unprecedented. I felt bad for them because no one is prepared for that kind of heat there. Of course no matter how prepared, we always have to remember that heat like that can kill. People who go hiking and don't know how much water they have to carry in the desert (even in winter) often have to be rescued, or sometimes they die. It is strictly illegal (not to mention cruel) to leave your dog in the car for even a minute from May to October. If you see a dog in a car and break the window to get them out, you won't be charged for it. Every now and then someone leaves their baby in the car and it's in the news because the baby died. Hard to imagine how anyone could do that but it happens. Living here I never thought of this as an extreme climate until I read somewhere that it is classified as such. I guess a temperature range of 90 degrees identifies a place as extreme. Unfortunately it seems possible that more and more places will become extreme as things are going. That's a shame because not everyone would choose to live in a climate that has such a range.

No doubt this is true of all of us, and is true of me and my dogs. My training, beyond the bare basics, is keyed precisely to my life style and how the dog needs to behave living and travelling with me. My dogs also encounter people who say they are amazingly well behaved, and they are. Some things wouldn't necessarily suit another person's lifestyle but they suit us.

Maybe there's a good reason for that. Like, maybe it's not a great idea.

Yep, that explains it. Thanks for the clarification, urge to herd.

That would explain it. I am exclusively a westerner!

Wow, I did not know that! Thank you for telling me. Whatever it does to the horse, it sounds bad. I have never heard of that. I've spent a great deal of time over the years on a cattle ranch where there are horses and opossums, and never heard anyone mention it; never heard of anyone's horse getting that. I wonder if it is mostly only found in certain parts of the country (?)

I am interested in your thoughts on this, urge to herd. It's possible that you and I are using the word differently or mean different things by using it. When I start a training session with one of my dogs, the dog is always happy and excited. He knows that all he has to do is figure out what I want and he will get rewarded. It's kind of like like a puzzle toy that dispenses treats. Figure out how to get the treats. If you see figuring out how to get the treats from the toy as stressful, then you and I have different definitions of stress, which is OK, but good to clarify. In my experience, a treat toy or frozen Kong is given to a dog to reduce stress in the dog. My dog doesn't show any symptoms of the kind of stress that I am talking about. He only shows joy and eagerness because he knows that all he has to do is make the right move in the direction of what I want, and he will be rewarded. If he doesn't make the right move, nothing happens. So he tries again. Of course, I make it extremely easy for him to try the correct thing and harder for him to do other things, so it usually doesn't take long. And he'll be rewarded for every tiny incremental step toward what I ultimately want. He has the same body language most of the time as he has when we are playing, with eyes bright and a smile, and focused on me. (Well, most of the time. If he's just not in the mood today then we don't train and go back to it tomorrow.) For me, when being taught something I really want to learn, and with a good teacher who I know won't be critical of early efforts, learning a new skill is fun for me and not the least bit stressful as I define stress. It wasn't that way in school but of course that was very different because making a wrong move was punished. Now, I am not saying we never learn from stress - of course we do. We often learn as adults the most far-reaching lessons in life because of something that went wrong from our perspective. I value those as much as I value any other kind of learning. I just don't think it applies the same way to dogs. I don't think that getting it right and being rewarded is stressful for either dog or human being under normal and encouraging circumstances. It will definitely be stressful if the person or dog is actually stressed out about something else, like knowing that they got punished last time or caused disappointment for getting something wrong. But, as I say, I may be defining stress very differently from the way you are.

How are they lethal if you have a horse?

I live where summers are extremely hot. Everyone seeks shade here in summer. People will walk to the store from the very end of the parking lot so they can park their car in the shade, so that it is not 125 F in the car when they get in. My dogs don't even go for a walk in the summer unless it is before the sun comes up. These days if we don't get out by 5AM they don't even get a walk. The rest of the year when the weather is nice, they don't seek shade unless they have been running. Of course, no doubt you accommodate her desire to walk in the shade. Does she pant? Or do you think it is not really connected to heat?

In my opinion, and how i train dogs, training should always be fun, and not just "(for the most part)". If I a not making it fun for the dog, then I shouldn't be doing it. No matter what I am training the dog to do or not to do, it can be made fun and rewarding for the dog to learn. As for trauma or stress in younger or older dogs - from my experience it depends entirely on the dog. Stress and trauma should always be avoided whenever possible. There is no point in stressing out a dog (or a person or horse or anyone else who is needing to learn something) in order for them to learn. It is never necessary. If it causes that in the dog, that is not the way to go about it. I would never cause any of my animals stress or trauma on purpose, at any age. I also would never think it was necessary to startle a dog. I don't think that stress is how we learn. My dogs have always learned the best in a stress-free environment. My training of dogs is always low stress. At the first sign of stress in the dog I stop and move on to something else. In my experience, most dogs, especially sensitive dogs, won't learn anything at all if they are under stress, except that training is stressful and therefore to be avoided. And I don't learn well at all under stress either, in fact I may not learn anything. My whole way of teaching is about encouragement. Deliberately causing stress or startle seems like a terrible idea to me. Especially in a young dog, because you don't know what could turn out to cause trauma. Also in my experience I have found that if a puppy or other young animal gets traumatized by something (no matter how small an incident it seems to us) it can cause a life-long phobia or avoidance behavior that is very difficult if not impossible to change. On the other hand, if I have an older animal who has always been treated with kindness and respect, and who has had very little stress in their life, they don't seem as affected by that kind of thing. For instance, I don't yell at my animals or stomp my feet or bang things and I certainly never do those things AT them. As a result, when my dogs are adults they can roll with what happens much more easily. If someone nearby does bang something, stomp their feet, or yell, they assume it has nothing to do with them. They may, sensibly, get out of the way but they do not tend to be frightened, because they know I won't let anything harm them. I also know that a dog never has an avoidance reaction to something "for no particular reason", even though it can seem that way to us. If there weren't a reason perceivable to the dog, the behavior wouldn't be there. Maybe that particular dog "said" something to your dog in dog language that makes your dog avoid them.