clbmine
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Posts posted by clbmine
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I was curious, I never see any rough collies or smooth collies herding, and certainly never hear about them on serious farms.
But rough collie owners and enthusiasts say the breed is a brilliant working dog, that they are not supposed to be high drive, but they all are capable of working.
What is your experience with the breed working?
What about compared to other breeds like aussies, english shepherds, welsh collies, etc?
I also hear similar said about the corgi, that they fully capable of working because xxx uses one on their farm, or xxx has AKC herding titles...
And I have not seen one work so I am interested to hear what you think about the breeds.
Thankls -
Hmm, in the UK at least there are indeed working bearded collies that are not BC crosses.
This breeder here:
http://www.spanglefish.com/brambledalebeardedcollies/
Has apparently been breeding her own line of bearded collies and never crossed them with border collies. She didn't like the direction the breed was going in so started her own lines, but I don't think her dogs work any sort of animal. I don't think that makes her dogs proper working bearded collies though, but I don't know, I'd rather ask her directly how she breeds for working ability with sheep than judge on her website.
There's the working beardie society of course, which they do own dogs which are for working sheep (and has already been mentioned?):
http://www.workingbeardies.co.uk/
Working bearded collies are not registered with the KC, but they do exist in the UK, and while they have been outcrossed with border collie from time to time, but I think they are still majority bearded collie.
I have met some at the agility shows I have gone to, and they are so much better than the show bearded collies. They are not beardie crosses
There are some videos of working bearded collies out there, but I wouldn't be sure if they really are working bearded collies and not beardie bc crosses. And there certainly aren't many videos out there at all. I don't know, I have never seen one working sheep.
Either way, owners of working bearded collies seem to have pride in the breed, and so for the most part breed beardie to beardie.
I guess another way to look at it would be looking at welsh sheepdogs. They may look just like border collies, and you may never even know if its actually a BC mix based on appearance, but those that own the breed try to preserve it in the way they can.
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I would simply prefer to show the video through PM as a preference, not for a big reason though. I could share it in the topic I suppose...
@GentleLake
I gave it a search and couldn't see a forum, it would be great if there was one/
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Hello,
Sorry for the terrible title first off haha...
Was wondering if anyone could possibly help me by sharing their opinion and insight on a certain dog (non-bc) based of a short compilation video of the dog working sheep and goats in PM?
Sorry if this is a strange question, I don't really need anything indepth, just a brief overlook perhaps?
Also sorry for asking a non bc related question on a bc board, but I really couldn't think of anywhere else to ask, though if anyone perhaps knows of a different forum, or someone I could contact then I could ask there instead perhaps.
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Do you mean this is strange for a competition in general, or for a well known competition?
Sounds like a nice environment
Been to some competitions in the uk, but only some more local ones so its interesting to hear about ones abroard
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Ruth, your story reminds me of the time a few years back I was hiking 'way up in the desert mountains, at least 6 miles along the trail, and came to a young couple hiking with a basset hound of all things. I could hardly believe my eyes, but that dog was as fit as they come, not the least bit tired or winded, and having a ball. His legs were short, but longer than what you usually see and not bent or bowed, and he was lean and solid muscle. I spoke with the owners, and they said they had looked long and hard to find a breeder who was not breeding to ACK standards, but rather to the old standard for field-bred bassets. It kind of made my day to meet that dog and his owners.
Oh gosh, field bred bassets are wonderful!
I don't know if this is what the average working basset is like, but by gosh is this dog actually nice looking <3 I usually dislike the look of basset hounds, but this dog looks amazing <3
Working line Dachshunds are cool too
I wish working corgis existed...
Id love to see some which looked like this:
Of course, there probably are some, but I don't know of any concrete lines which do, or also breed for working ability.
I would love to meet a proper working/field or llewellin setter some day. I wonder what their temperament is like...
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FYI, the teeter trainer you have pictured (#2) is simply a piece of 2 or 3 inch pvc pipe screwed to a board. would cost $5 and 20 min of your time to make. you can make the board as long or as short as you want. I found this to be enough to train 2O2O.
Yeah, could probably make that one myself easily if I wished
I was just showing examples really of different types
If it was just understanding the criteria, I was going to say almost anything would work as long as it was sturdy. Since it's performing it and with more detail about sliding, it really sounds like he has an issue collecting himself and staying on in order to 'stick the landing' (contact) as it were.
Which means, IMO, you need something with some length and angle. Doesn't have to be a ton, probably, especially not to start, but he needs to learn how to get his weight back to stop himself on the contact instead of sliding off it. Which means of those things you posted, yeah. The contact trainer is probably your best option, but even a long(ish) board you can prop up on steadily higher things would work. I used a tire to start with (and a wide board) with Molly.
But mostly right now I'd be focusing on teaching the rock back/transfer his weight, and at increasing degrees of steepness. Just hopping on and getting into position won't do that for him. It'll clear up the criteria but it won't teach him to transfer his weight to his back to STAY on, particularly when he's coming down off those things with speed.
Ok, sounds like a good idea! I'll give it a go
Thanks a lot!
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Mostly the performance of the criteria I would say, and a tiny bit of a lack of understanding as well, but that is easily improved.
Of course, we got to build things up a bit better, and then slowly add more stimulation there to proof his contacts... I don't know tbh.
I currently don't have anything to practice simple contacts on anyway, he knocks everything over, slides off, or breaks it haha, so either way I will have to buy something sturdy for this purpose. Have very little to use in terms of resources in my house currently.
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I have a problem with our contacts and need to practice.
However, practicing on stools and similar do not seem to work, not only because everything we can practice on is slippery/topples over, but it doesn't translate well to A frames and Dogwalks.
I am wondering if anyone knows a good seller of very small contact equipment for practice in limited space?
Im thinking something like this may be good, this one may be a little large perhaps...
this in half might be fine, but I am worried about it falling over (btw, not my dog, the companies dog lol, found the image off the internet)
Or perhaps something like this, which looks a little smaller and could help with seesaws, but would that translate well with regular contacts?
Something like that looks great, though im not sure if its the best to get? It looks like it could easily fall over, especially with how clumsy my dog is. I wouldn't want to get something which turns out to be unstable. Of course, nothing too bad if it falls over, I just think it would be better for it to be sturdy
I need something that is small enough to practice at home in, as I have very limited space.
Also, we have worked on stools, beds, stairs, etc and its not doing much for us. My dog is very fast so I need to try and train them as strong as I can in between lessons with.
I am not looking for a sturdy box, and if I am going to buy something which I can use to train contacts on for now and in the future with different dogs also, then I would just prefer something which is a little more like the actual equipment used.
Even if its just a slope the dog jumps onto.
I could get a board I prop up too, but I would need to buy something sturdy to put it onto, and I really have my worries with that, with it sliding off, or breaking. He is not a gentle dog, and currently knocks everything over anyway.
If anyone has any recommendations over which type would be best, or any suggestions over companies (perhaps UK companies) then it would be great!
Thanks!P.S.
Sorry all my posts are about agility, that just happens to be the area where I have the most questions. Sorry about that...
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I guess I forgot to mention its not a BC, but a different herding breed.
I guess I shouldn't have asked on a BC forum if it wasn't a BC, which I am sorry about.
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Looked up Mondio. "The hardest dog sport" apparently! ( Try controlling own feet, arms, rest of the body, whistle, dog and sheep.) Not sure a pup from a dog trained in a protection type sport would be top of my list as a potential Agility dog. No idea about "French ring."
Devon must be very different.
When you say "working bred" what work do the parents do? How many head of stock, how often?
Well, Mondioring is probably arguably the most difficult of the protection sports it seems. It also has an emphasis on distractions. French ring is also a protection sport. As for which is more difficult, herding or mondio, I would have no clue.
By working, I mean they are from lines designed to do a specific job/activity rather than showing, and need the drive and instinct to perform it. But for herding, the mother is titled in herding (which I know doesn't mean too much), and the father has shown a good amount of natural instinct, but the pairing is not really designed specifically for herding work, I'm sorry...
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Don't know what mondio is. Do you mean the sire is a show dog?
Is there any reason why you aren't looking at a working bred dog?
They are working bred dogs, mandio is Mandioring, and ring refers to French ring.
Though the parents of the litter are not overly high drive or hyperactive and are more moderate in these areas, and have a good off switch too. (just mentioning before someone suggests otherwise; im not getting a working Malinois or a dog with that much drive)
I believe this will be your second dog for Agility after being bitten by the bug and that you haven't been doing it long. If I had my time over I wouldn't rush to get another until both I and my first dog had more experience. That way I wouldn't have made so many more and different mistakes along the way. I do understand your enthusiasm though.
You have a good point there. I would be planning on getting another dog anyway, even if I wasn't doing agility.
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If they don't have experience in agility how would they know? The breeder could be looking for the wrong things or assuming that something is more important than it is? You may end up with a pushy nutter.
I would trust my pup's breeder to give me an honest assessment of a pup's temperament in the litter but as they are working breeders I take any statement that pups would be suitable for agility with caution. They probably would be fine but as they can't even identify for sure pups that will make exceptional workers at that stage (or they would charge more for them) how could they do so for a sport dog?
I didn't agonise about choosing a pup. Two left in the litter, I took the short coated one. That was about the limit of my selection, but I had been intermittently stalking the breeders and their dogs for over 10 years. Didn't bother me that he was raised in an outbuilding.
He won me out of Beginners in Obedience at 13 months (not really my thing), at 22 months has won out of Grade 3 in Agility and is learning to work sheep. He'll have a go at anything I want.
There's nothing special about Agility or Agility dogs. There is something special about successful agility trainers / handlers.
What is your breeder breeding for and why are you handing over the choice? Is it that you don't trust your own judgement?
I'm quite relaxed over choice and traits. Our nearly 16 year old got a reserve CC but we had to watch for signs of wild life. Could have gone further but for poor training on our part. Our 10 year old has been reasonably successful at Grade 7 but is fear aggressive to dogs and people (much better now but not perfect) and has very little resilience. Both adopted as adolescents when bad habits had been learned. Any well bred pup was likely to be easy in comparison.
I believe the breeder has got some understanding of the sport due to probably seeing many of the offspring go on to compete in agility and do well, but doesn't practice it herself. However, I think her husband runs a dog which has done very well in agility and has been very successful too. The mother does mondio, and the father does ring.
Its not that I don't trust my own judgement, but that I do not know enough about the individual puppies temperaments to make the decision. Its also pretty common for the breeder to choose the puppies and pair them to the individuals they would suit best anyway, often advised too.
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Can I be honest?
As gently, kindly, and respectfully as I can: I get the impression you believe that there is some trait or combination of traits that will give you the ultimate agility dog. There isn't. There's just how well you understand the game and how well you're able to work with the dog you have. (Maybe not entirely but mostly).
What you need is a mentally and temperamentally sound dog who is biddable, confident and likes to work with you and play a lot. Everything else, including speed, is largely about training and preference.
I think the best thing you can do for selecting a future agility dog is, as Mom24dog says, select a really good breeding - or even better yet, keep working with your current dog and figure out how to train for what you want, what you love and what you hate, and realize that mostly the dog you end up with on the agility field is the one you created. Not claiming dogs are interchangeable, just that to a large degree the performance you get is what you create.
What the breeder is seeing and talking about is probably either just toy drive or being hyper. Toy drive good. Hyper, not so much.
Its not me who's selecting the pup from the litter, its the breeder.
The idea is they match up the dogs which they think would have the personality that suits the potential owners and their desired activity best.
for example:
http://www.spritebelgians.com/philos/art4.shtml
Of course it won't be the same as this, and obviously a different breeder, breed etc, with different methods, and obviously this is a very analytical way to do this, but I simply mean the the matching of basic traits to different potential owners and sports.
The breeder mentioned that they would choose a puppy which would be best suited for agility, and I am just wondering what they could mean by that. They don't breed for agility, they breed for a different activity...
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I'll be the first to admit ive never had a single problem at trials. No DA or DR, no zoomies, no lack of focus, no running of to meet the judge, no speed issues other than him going even faster, no distractions from other dogs, smells, small animals etc, and he just loves the competition enviroment, so a lot of this I forget could happen in a new dog and it doesn't cross my mind.
So I am sorry.
I will try to consider them much more rather than focusing on the less important factors.
Both parents are fine with loud noises and can work under them, neither are timid or have a flight reactions, and they both adore to tug. The breeder has been breeding for confidence and to prevent shy behaviors, and for dogs that are friendly with strangers.
Though being DR or DA could be a potential issue due to the breed (not that either parents are particularly, but its still a possibility), and some other problems could occur too perhaps, maybe ones related to a high prey drive.
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Ok, so I have been talking to a breeder, and they of course was choosing the right puppies for each person from the litter based on the goals and activities that would be done with the puppies, and since I was planning on doing agility, obedience and flyball, they mentioned one of the pups that would be the best one for these types of sports.
So, my question would be what qualities would this entail?
The litter is not a litter bred for agility, but a different type of work, so what qualities would you think they would consider would make a good agility and obedience dog?
They have produced dogs which have done very well in agility before, so would they know based on this?
I myself personally like the more enthusiastic and speedy dogs because that's the type of dog I enjoy running the most (nothing against more moderately paced dogs, they are probably really fun to run too, its just a personal preference), and that training is a huge factor and probably even more important, but I still do wonder.
Also, what you would consider the traits that would make a good agility dog?
I am interested to hear the opinions on this subject in general, even if its not related to breeders choosing the puppy, which is why I am asking on a forum
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Yeah, for us trick training and agility training are very different, due the the sheer excitement of agility and the speed he runs at. We can jump onto anything that exists and do a perfect 2 on 2 off position, even on walls. But when running at top speed over an A frame, he does often forget to do the trick
Also, our 2x2 garden is made of wooden planks, and in the parks there are a huge number of dogs and people walking about, its a huge park as well, setting up weaves not only would not work well due to the lack of other jumps to get the good practice, it would be both very strange and bothering to other people, other dogs bothering us, as well as could form some complaints. Plus incorrect spacing, weaves which will not remain straight when the dog goes through them, and generally not the best of times.
Yes, we probably could do the equipment in the sessions, and we do, but if we spend 15 minutes on weaves and 15 minutes on a course (of course talking as well on how to improve and generally being instructed), that would be a session where we didn't practice seesaw or contacts.
If we do 15 mins of seesaw and 15 mins weaves, we well end up with no work on contacts or handling.
Not to mention 15 minutes is relatively short, since we can spend the whole hour practicing a difficult weave entry in a lesson, though split between 2 people would be 30 mins.
IDK, I couldn't say what would happen. Perhaps we could get everything done in 30 mins...
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Hmm, I guess I am still learning, this is my first dog admittedly; he is 3 years old and we have been doing dog agility from puppyhood, but its more about use of the equipment. I currently don't have the use of any form of equipment outside lessons, so weaves, contacts, seesaws etc are basically something I am unable to practice in any form. I could get some, but I do not have a space to use them. My garden is about 2mx2m, and everywhere else is public space.
I have done as much as I can with a stool, or absolutely anything with practicing contacts. Its fine, until you add anything else to the mix, like jumps, the A frame itself, or just the working environment.
In 1-2-1s we more focus on handling, which is great because I need it to gain skills as a handler.
But we cannot practice other equipment as the lessons are generally for focusing on what we need actual help with.
We have been competing occasionally recently (not every weekend or something, about once a month) and our practice of equipment is definitely our weakest point.
The situations mostly have been that I could handle the course well, but my dog leaps off the seesaw, or cannot collect himself for the weaves, or misses the contacts, etc. And honestly, its not even a case of a 30% success rate, its 0%. Well, we got the weave entry once in a competition... That one time...
I could ask to practice the seesaw every week in a 30mins private, but it is something you can train without the instructor. An hour of practicing all the equipment, and doing this every week, I would probably do very week at getting them more reliable.
However, I would probably not be able to see what goes wrong in these sessions. An example would be in the weave entries we practiced last session, we were doing it on the easier side of the weaves but from behind the first pole (so coming from the opposite direction the dog would go when entering the weaves).
Alone I would have no clue how my handling would have affected the dog, and would most likely have given up, but with the instructors help we could see exactly what was going on with my handling (e.g overcompensating, turning to soon, etc) and eventually begin to learn the right handling. (she could quite easily pick up my dog and get a perfect weave entry herself every time, and did so, so it wasn't the dog)
So yeah, its a thought. With a barn I can practice more and do so more consistently and actually have the chance to practice everything so we can do the equipment, and perhaps practice what we learned in the lesson, but in the lesson we learn how to do certain things which we never would be able to do without the guidance.
Its been much better with my current instructor than in previous places. The place where I went to originally and first started agility with didn't even practice the weaves once every 4 months. I had to begin looking at going to other places too as after 2.5 years we had seen the channel weaves about 5 times, and the seesaw twice.
So that is where I found my new instructor and I went to both for a while before quitting the first one.
I spent most my time learning with these people, so while we practiced serpentines, rear crosses, object discrimination, etc. We didn't touch much else. Of course, my dog can now weave, and do all the equipment, but we are still novices getting a portion of a lesson every other week on the equipment.
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Not really possible to alternate due to discounts from barn hire for 10 block sessions of 33%, and for the instructor to keep her slots free too it would be best to choose one for every week.
Ive never really had my own equipment before to practise on. I've had a few pvc jumps in the back garden or a house I was in before, but not actual equipment, and it didn't turn out well as I focused too much on making everything perfect than having fun, and it all affected my dog.
But in the barn I will be in a working area and not at home (which is a big difference for my dog between work and calm times, he can associate this place with work), and with my sister so I won't be spending my time thinking inwards.
I don't know, what I like about lessons is the general feeling of doing well, you want to not fall behind the other people, and you want to be able to do what the instructor wants you to.
But in a barn, you can practise and fully flesh out everything you need to and improve, which you cannot do in a lesson so much.
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Ok, so I have a choice to make.
I could do a 30mins private lesson with my agility trainer in which we can work on areas I need to improve on. She is a great trainer, and is really helpful, especially with handling. I currently do a group lesson with her once a week for an hour with 1-3 other people.
My other option would be to hire a barn for an hour and share it with my sister. This could help with working on proofing certain parts such as contacts, and I can practise all those parts which are not done in the lessons such as proofing contacts and weave entries.
What do you recommend/think would be the best option? I will still be doing the 1 hour lessons with her, but this is a second session of agility a week because I need to improve and I am wondering which option would be best?
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Well, if you're referring to the Mudi I was talking about, both parents have very small pedigrees. The father is from a B pedigree meaning neither of the parents were pedigree Mudi, and he was given a pedigree because he was deemed to look and act like a Mudi.
The mother is the same, except both the parents were B registered dogs.
Since they are still used to herd on farms in the country and mudi are a relatively new breed, its likely they are both bred to be farm dogs and were not bred for showing since their parents didnt have the pedigree and therefore didn't compete in shows. Unless the offspring wasn't registered. Its a case of an open pedigree for this breed
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But yeah, I generally agree with you, I was just clarifying the particular example I gave.
not arguing at all! -
I've been thinking about herding instinct recently, and how it is lost though selective breeding for other traits.
There are so many breeds which have completely changed through the show ring, including border collies, but many don't have people who continue to breed the dogs for their herding ability at all, breeds such as the norwegian buhund, the old english sheepdog, spanish water dog, etc. (at least from what I could tell, there are people who still herd with them using instinct tests and the like, but it doesn't really seem the focus for any breeder from what I could find)
There are some which have the fortunate case where they are still actually bred for their origional purpose, such as the lovely border collie, Australian shepherds, Australian kelpies and the like.
The working bearded collie did seem to be loosing numbers, but at a dog agility show I was at the other day they mentioned that working beardies were gaining popularity in agility.
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Some dogs after hundreds of years of breeding for traits other than herding still retain herding instinct and can be used, such as the german shepherd, but are they really as good as the dogs of the past? Of course its a different type of herding in the form of tending for this breed, but I do wonder what the original german shepherds were able to do...
Is there even still a bloodline for the belgian shepherds and german shepherds that has remained unchanged since recognition and introduction of breeding for IPO?
A bloodline which hasn't had any influence from other lines, a bloodline that still retains the natural tending and livestock protecting abilities of the past?
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Then there are the breeds which are completely unrecognised, such as the Sinka, Koolie, Blue Lacy, Welsh sheepdog, Hangin' Tree cowdogs, etc.
Then the ones are those which are used by native type people and don't draw much attention, relatively unchanged no matter what has occurred, yet is at risk when those owning them move out or replace them, such as the Basque Shepherd and Cane Di oropa, old german shepherd dogs, which have been classed as an endangered landrace!
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altdeutsche_H%C3%BCtehunde
Perhaps these could be the same as those which are unrecognised except with a difference in use, purpose, and herding ability?
_________________________________________________As well as the breeds which are still just about viable enough to be used for herding such as the Mudi (I can't think of other breeds right now, I could do research) as well as breeders all taking herding instinct and temperament tests, yet even those who compete in herding seem to take their dogs to shows, without a single breeder that does not show their dogs, and completely focuses on herding ability from what I could find.
Perhaps its just because as a breed any dog is capable of winning, from the slim dogs with the long legs
http://kovesbercibetyarkennel2.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/6/1/13616168/9775364_orig.jpg
to the short and stocky.
http://www.nyirsegfiakennel.com/uploads/1/1/8/3/11830651/5188659.jpg?240
But even then, there is a split beginning, with the short and stocky dogs being favoured, such as this dog which is a 2 time world champion, among many other titles
http://kovesbercibetyarkennel2.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/6/1/13616168/3494537_orig.jpg
and the long legged active dogs are preferred for dog sports.
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And then there are the ones who have changed so much they don't look like similar breeds in the slightest.
http://www.davidhancockondogs.com/archives/archive_790_present/images/790/790E%20Early%20Corgi.jpg
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There are also some which I reckon just happen to have herding instinct, such as the Rottweiler, Cane Corso italiano, Boxer, some lines of poodle, etc.
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What do you all think about these splits?
Do you think some breeds aren't worth worrying about as they just don't have the skill of other breeds and will be just fine as show dogs?
Do you think the opposite, that there should be some breeders in the breed still trying to better the working ability of these breeds to try and preserve the original dogs for future generations?
When would you say its worth trying to preserve working ability, and when it isn't?
Sorry if this was a long talk, and wasn't about border collies much... If it is not allowed in here, then sorry!
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Congrats!
Really not sure how the titling works in America, but it sounds like you worked really hard, well done!
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eah, there are different "handling techniques", front crosses like you mentioned. There are a bunch of different ones, and it varies between country and handling system
This video is in a different language I am afraid, but it does show quite a few different techniques
I wish I could do all these
Though I usually do wing wraps and front crosses though most the course haha, so Im fine using just two of those techniques mostly xD
They had 21 in that video, but most people don't learn that many from what I have seen! So yeah
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Question about herding style in Hungary
in Politics and Culture
Posted
I am not experienced with herding, which is why I am asking this as I wish to learn more,
I have only seen herding in Hungary once when I went to meet my pups father, so I am not experienced in the style used in Hungary, only from what I observed.
But here are vids of my pups father working for reference to what I have seen.
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Anyway, as a breed Mudi are called the "driving dog" of Hungary, in reference to their herding style.
And from what I can tell, Pumi, Puli, and Sinka are also used in a similar manner, as well as Croatian sheepdogs and Pulin which are practically the same breed as Mudi.
What I notice is that the breed is used mostly for moving stock, but "pushing" it in the direction desired (driving).
I like this
And I like this video of a Mudi too.
There are "traditional style" herding competitions as well in Hungary, to give more examples to help give a more "balanced" view if I can...
And
Though it seems
And sometimes they are just barking at cattle with no control.
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A breeder of Pumi who lives in the US trains her Pumi in a more "american style".
Her lines are closely linked to lines in Hungary.
She sent me these videos as a reference to her Pumi herding.
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Anyway, what I see their purpose being is as a dog which stands by the shepherds side, and is used to push the livestock with a lot of speed when needed, or bring them in. They also seem able to work stock a lot more "calmly" too when needed. Such as when moving ducks.
And they dont seem to use much independent thought or stock sense?
I was asked how this could even be useful... And I dont really have a huge answer.
They are not just used for herding, but also ratting and alerting to threats, and even hunting.
So perhaps their use is not just as a herding dog, but for everything?
But they are still used for herding in Hungary, and the croatian sheepdog in croatia, and the Pulin too.
Unlike some other breeds, they dont seem completely replaced by border collies. I dont know if they are in the process of being replaced, but they currently at least still see use on farms....
This is from someone who doesn't know much about herding, so perhaps someone can make sense of what bits of information I am trying to put together...
Perhaps I am completely wrong with my assumption and need a smack on the wrist?
Thanks