Rave

Deafbat, I believe many of us *tried* to "educate" the poster in a very civilized manner and those attempts fell on deaf ears. You're pretty new to these boards, stick around for awhile, this was a pretty tame discussion even though it's a very controversial topic and if you're into reprimanding everyone for every off-the-cuff comment, you'll stay pretty busy! LOL I never called the poster stupid or said she didn't know anything (she's the one who brought that up)...on the contrary, I believe she has learned a great deal from her mother and her flyball teammates, who are breeding AKC dogs just for sport alone. There's more to flyball than owning a fast dog and there's more to life than flyball, which hopefully everyone in the sport no matter their age will learn eventually if they haven't already. -L

Funny how "tone" and intent are so magically evident to all who read...too bad everyone never comes up with the same answer. I thought the poster's age was relevant, as has been already mentioned we all can think back to those years and chuckle at what we *thought* we knew... But her age aside, it's clear in her posts how much she actually understands about breeding & genetics. And anyone who comes on these boards and sings the praises of breeding Border-Jacks deserves whatever they get. -L

Anyone who can support the breeding of Border-Jacks is never going to understand what those of us supporting and defending the working BC are talking about. I hate to think of a small minority of flyball people giving all of us sport people a bad name. Trust me guys, there are some of us "sport people" who are as disgusted with the breeding of Border-Jacks and diluted BC's as you are. -L

hmmm....Designer Dogs....good description! Melanie, all your head-banging is causing the ground to shake out in CA.

Because Shayna, I see it every day. I regularly train and compete with people who have these sports-bred dogs from all up and down the East Coast and Canada. So even if YOU don't have a dog like I describe doesn't mean they don't exist elsewhere and are a sad example of where this sports-breeding type dog is heading. And I honestly don't understand how you can "represent" sports breeders when you aren't one?? I've been actively competing in agility and flyball on the East Coast for the past 7 years and I for damn sure know these "sport" dogs very well and have seen the slow detriment these "sports breeders" are causing to the true Border Collie breed as I know and love it. But I guess I can't expect an 11th grader to understand that... -Laura

What "sport" breeders aren't realizing is what makes the BC such an awesome sports dog in the first place is the selective breeding which "made" this breed in the first place, which is breeding for a true working dog. Take that out and just breed for sports and all you'll end up with is a ballistic, psychotic rocket-dog with no brain. Yuck - No thanks. I'm a sports-first person, just because that's what I do and know well (and can do by myself in my backyard!), who gets out herding whenever my pocketbook, schedule and daylight allow. I have an awesome pup from a true working farm, who can do it all and definitely has herding ability (although we haven't gotten far yet because of the constraints above). You better believe I'm going back to good working lines for my next dog, who will be spayed/neutered just like all my other dogs, and will never compete in any AKC-sanctioned event. -Laura

I'm sure they'd pass the AKC herding instinct test, which is enough, right? Imagine the versatility titles we could get!

So Kim (BTW, shouldn't you be 3Devils?), are you still going to breed your cattle dog and poodle for flyball puppies?? How do I get on the waiting list? I missed out on your last Border-Jack breeding and dont' want to miss out on this one!

Then by sapphire's reasoning, my friend's bulldog Lily is a herding dog, as she most certainly "stalks" and "slinks" and rounds up tennis balls like a BC. We even have a pic of Lily walking behind sheep and the sheep moving away in a nice tight pack. Colin, you've seen Lily "on sheep"...whaddaya think??? On one of my agility lists, the current discussion is the problems with "herding behaviors" while training agility dogs...nipping at handler, ankle-biting, etc... I get so sick of hearing that I just stopped responding to it. -Laura (sure wishing I could take a sip of something, but alas am stuck at work for 3 more hours! ) p.s...RDM, I'm a chickenshit too!

There might not be much you can do to entertain your dog when you're not at home. I'd suggest wearing the little bugger out when you are at home so he'll want to sleep during the day. Warning though, a 2 y.o. BC can have endless energy. -Laura

sapphire, until you've been annointed by the sheep poo, you'll probably not understand what we're trying to tell you. there's nothing wrong with your pet BC playing with toys, just don't be fooled into thinking it's herding behavior. And if you're put off by Terry's "tone", you ain't seen nothing yet....LOL...this has been a VERY tame discussion. -Laura

Ironic how people whose dogs have never seriously been on stock think the displaced "herding" behavior is "cool", while people whose dogs do work stock don't allow that behavior except on stock....two completely different worlds. -Laura

Before this, he spent a lot of his time and energy "bossing" and "controlling" his "herd" of balls. FWIW, I think you're reading WAY too much into the situation. But to answer your original question, dogs in general are only as "dominant" (your word, not mine) as you, the owner/handler/trainer, let them be. -Laura

I agree since my late girl Casey had seizures brought on by Erlichia. The Vet School here (supposed experts) automatically presumed epilepsy, but luckily I pushed for tests and waited for the results. She was just beginning in her herding training (late start, she was a 3 y.o. rescue) and I couldn't explain why she no longer had the energy or desire for it when she had previously been very keen and able. I had no idea she was sick, but I could sure tell when she felt better. Even after the proper diagnosis, the Vet School nuerologist still told me it was a rare occurence...but then he later failed to diagnose another problem with Casey, so he's since lost ALL credibility!! Laura Raleigh, NC with ticks galore :-(

Here's a good weave training article: http://www.monmouth.com/~speedoggie/weavearticle.html

FYI...Just heard that Tom Wilson will be doing a sheep herding demo on the David Letterman show tomorrow night.

Yikes, Tony, it's pretty rampant! As an avid sports competitor, I can affirm that some people are indeed breeding BC's solely for sport, even if you don't see it or realize it. But I'm not sure the majority of sports-only folks even know about ABCA or care about it, since ABCA registration doesn't mean anything in the agility or flyball world....and unfortunately AKC registration DOES (for agility, not flyball). -Laura

Denise, If you need any help scanning for these dual registered conformation dogs, I'd be more than happy to help.

Thanks guys! JRID, go to www.flyballdogs.com/tds then click on flyball then click on tournaments then click on directions. -L

OK, the vet's name is Jean Dodds and people fax her their dog's test results for interpretation. Here's a website with a little more info: http://www.volhard.com/holistic/vteam/bloodwork.htm There's also a Volhard list on yahoogroups that you might want to join and ask their opinions. They helped me out. -Laura p.s...I have Volhard's book (the one mentioned on the website above) that explains blood tests and what to look for, I can let you borrow it this weekend if you want.

Kim, When I was looking for answers to some of Casey's questions, it was suggested I send her bloodwork results to a specialist who was apparently very good at interpreting any trends. She's very well-known, but I can't remember her name. I'll look for the info I was sent and forward it on to you. -Laura

Great!! See you there then! How's Charlotte doing? -L

Yeah, would've been fun to go if the drive wasn't a cross-countrIES one. See you this weekend? Wick's still on injured reserve (and going absolutely BONKERS!), so won't be running. No sense risking her whole herding/agility/flyball career over one tourney with a questionable knee. Should be a very interesting tourney..... teeeheeeheee...... KIM, are you coming down with CIA? Laura

Yeah, he went to the NADAC Ch.'s in Calgary. I know he placed 3rd in one class (of many!), so that's maybe what she meant, but overall he wasn't so high. yeah he ran both dogs in pre-elite (i.e. novice). -L

Becca, are you talking about Rob going to the NADAC Championships? If so, he didn't come in 3rd, and if he told you that you need to slap him. LOL. -L