Rorys mom

How is that interest going to be assessed though? Hopefully not by putting your dog over the equipment or getting it to jump.

I am taking them to a trainer, that works her dogs on stock, agility and obedience.

 

You are taking the first step by taking only one to training but 7 months is way too young for agility. What training would you be doing?

 

You need to take them out separately and train them separately and keep them apart as much as possible. Don't allow them more opportunity to shut you out in favour of each other.

I'm going to see if they show interest in agility. They aren't going to be running a huge course or anything

We are on our 4th set of littermates; it helps that one is my pup and the other is my wife's. They get their time together (and with their mother) to run off puppy energy and they each get their one one-on-one time with us for socialization, bonding, and training. Be sure they each get their own one-on-one time not only does it help you bond with the one you're working with but it also teaches the other that their littermate can have attention. I suggest you establish a routine of certain times of day for puppy play time, time for both in their crates, and time for each one loose with you.

 

What I have found interesting is as our previous 3 sets of littermates have reached adulthood they became independent of each other (no longer best playmates and not worst enemies).

I can relate because one is my boyfriends and the other is mine, and its clear who's human is who's. If I "take action" now would it be more likely they will be able to be more independent?

Two of my BC's are littermates, and I recently spoke with someone for advice on why they are so ill mannered despite having basic obedience (I know they are border Collies, but this is ridiculous). He said he noticed all they did was pay attention to each other, and basically rely on each other.

They don't seem to have seperation anxiety because we put them in different crates in the beginning. When all of the dogs are out they can get really "rowdy" toward each other, and gang up on my other dogs. They had been sleeping with us, but decided we needed to fix this problem and work on their "manners"

I know a lot of handlers will sometimes keep littermates when they breed to work stock. They are 7 months old, so I don't feel like it's too late to "fix" this issue. Can anyone give some insight/experience they've had with littermates? (We are going to see if they like agility Tuesday and I decided to only bring one of the littermates-gotta start somewhere)

Whoa! What rule would she be circumventing if she did not copy the pedigree info from the papers she has (IBCA papers, I assume) into an ABCA registration certificate? I understood Julie to be saying that it would be unethical to include that information because you could not assume that it was accurate, and therefore the pedigree is NOT known. The OP could present the dog's papers to the ABCA and acknowledge that in the circumstances there might be reason to doubt their accuracy. I can't say what the ABCA would do in that case, but my guess is that they would not include the pedigree info. These dogs are not tainted forever because they have ancestors who were (or may have been) bred by Swafford or McCoy. If they turn out to be excellent working dogs, and if they pass the strenuous working and health tests required for ROM, there is no reason not to admit them to our gene pool, along with dogs of equal quality whose pedigree is not known.

 

Again, all this is way down the road, and there's really no point in thinking about it before the dogs' quality becomes known and demonstrated. I can see an ethical issue in breeding them before that, but I can't see an ethical issue in applying for ROM if they have met the standards.

 

ETA: Gentle Lake, at least one Swafford dog I know of WAS found as a stray, and falsely registered by him as an offspring of a mating between two of his dogs. Had she been ROMed by a subsequent owner, I'm sure the "pedigree" would have been omitted from the ABCA certificate.

If anyone would care to look at the IBCA and type in "Rosie" -then it would be captain beside there.

Captian must have not been registered because they were kicked out in 2006 and captain was born in 2008 if I'm reading it right. I just wonder if anyone knows the past breeders. I really would like to know an accurate pedigree whether they end up being ROM'd or not.

I know I shouldn't worry but I just ruminate on things.

Not sure if this link will take you to the site, http://cloud.easypedigreedb.com/ibca/195

You can go past more pedigrees too.

Thanks guys.

I agree with Julie, both about the ethics involved here and that I would want full disclosure if the pedigree were known.

 

It would be one thing to ROM a dog that had been found as a stray and therefore no pedigree information were available. It would be entirely another, IMO, if the ROMed dog's pedigree were known but concealed because people might not want a pup with its lines.

 

Again, kudos to you for doing your research.

 

Oh, yeah, and cute dogs. The red dog on the left looks a lot like my Bodhi, who was picked up as a stray outside of Paris, KY. Wonder if they could be related? I've always suspected he was from a less than stellar breeding. Great dog, nonetheless.

Thanks. Who knows they may be!

Speaking for myself I would not be happy if I bought a pup from someone who ROMed a dog and then omitted the fact that the bloodlines were Swafford or MAH, etc. If I really liked a dog and wanted a pup off it, I'd still want to know what was behind it if that information were known. Then it's on me to choose to take my chances based on the dog in front of me and my knowledge of what's behind that dog. Just my opinion.

 

J.

That's how I assume most people would feel, but I would never lie about something like that (not saying you are saying I would).

Re: Liz' comment regarding ethical reasons, see the link below. The McCoys, Mary Ann Harrison, Kristen Campbell, and Richard Swafford were expelled from the ABCA for either unethical breeding practices or for not cooperating with ABCA's investigations into their breeding practices. (This of course means that Cindy McCoy lied to you about how her association with the ABCA ended.)

Oh I knew she lied to me before I emailed her, I just wanted to see what she had to say. The dog (Captain) was the last one to not be registered (assuming IBCA is accurate) which was owned by Brystol Reckner.. Does anyone know her? I can't get ahold of her I just want to know more info, but at this point it probably isn't worth my time.

You are in good hands with Bob Washer.

 

Perhaps I will see you down there sometime.

Do you have a dog there with him now, or do you bring yours? I got to watch a few the other day.

I would not breed them for both health and ethical reasons.

I would never breed a dog unless it were ethical, just to clarify for everyone. I was more concerned about the pedigree for health reasons.

When I emailed Cindy McCoy to find out more info, she said she quit the ABCA... I wondered if she thought I was really that ignorant. Her reasoning was "because they were so mean to people"

I don't know whom you are working with but I do know that Bob Washer is located reasonably near Lexington and is a good trainer of dogs (I don't know if he trains people as well). A good trainer will be able to help you and your dogs, and be able to evaluate your dogs' potential after a few visits (a first visit is often not a good determinant).

 

Best wishes, and welcome!

Yep! Bob Washer is who I am training with. He suggested coming back a few times and we are going again this friday. Since I got Rory, I had this feeling he was going to be a great sheepdog.

He is a very loyal dog, and stays by me a lot, but no separation anxiety thankfully. Going to get him OFA/CEA tested soon.

I got to watch Away to Me last night - and Rory literally watched it with me, he was responsive to the sound of the sheep and the whistle, which I thought was too funny! Thanks for the advice.

-Katie

I just started taking my guys and gal to a sheepdog trainer in central KY, and the oldest one immediately went for the sheep, but when it was time to listen (especially lie down) he just wanted to chase them (which ended up resulting in me deciding to buy new boots after getting stepped on, and pinned up against the fence by sheep!!). Has anyone seen good herding dogs start out like this? The other two were more interested in me, and each other, so next time he suggested letting them do it while I was out of sight. Also, They all have basic obedience on them, but can this lead to problems working them? I have read some things about how that all goes out the door, but would it help to get him to master "lie down"?
I am having fun and thats what matters but I really want to get into this more and got a little discouraged. Any advice on what I can do, or should I just go with the flow? Can I do other things to prepare? I'm not going to give up, because that's not the person I am. Thanks in advance!

Keevah and Ghost wanted to say thanks for helping our momma and being so nice. Maybe we will meet some of you at the Bluegrass Classic in may!

But I'm not sure given the genetic background they have that breeding should be in their futures.

 

Enjoy your dogs.

Do you mean for health reasons? Just curious, I am still understanding all of this stuff and am continuing to learn everyday.

Thank you all for your replies! I don't plan on breeding them at all unless for some crazy wild reason they are amazing at working, but probably not even then and NEVER plan on registering them with the AKC.

ABCA prize money, haha wouldn't that be nice!

Again than you all, I feel a lot better now!

I have been searching on the boards for a few months now, and have learned a LOT.
I have been hesitant to ask any questions, as I am afraid I will be taken wrong or offend someone, which is not my intention. I HAVE read the "Read this first"

I have 3 border collies (one ABCA registered-Rory) and two non registered (because I just had a fishy feeling about the IBCA)
I didn't know much about any of the registries when I got my dogs. I just fell in love with the breed so I got Rory.

Later we decided to get one from a second litter (different dam and sire) since we managed to have the time and energy to meet the needs of our first bc and ended up with two because we didn't want the last one to just go to anyone.

Upon training my dog and learning more about the BC culture and herding etc. I found out Keevah and Ghost have Cindy McCoy/Swafford in their pedigree. Now that I know a lot more I am very glad I never paid the money to register them to the IBCA.

NOW I am taking them to see how they are in herding (we have only been once so far) and this registration thing has been on my mind way too much. Rory's bloodline apparently has some great dogs/handlers, but Keevah and Ghost's (if the IBCA is even true), is a huge mess of all the people that make the BC name bad (up until a certain point-where they were in wales/Scotland)

My question(s) are 1- should I be worrying about their health as much as I am now that I know where part of their pedigrees are from?

2- should I try to get them ROM'd if they show the working ability or would their name still look bad because of their history

3- is there anything you can't do without ABCA registration?

If any of my info is confusing just ask and I'll clarify. Thanks.