CMP

Oh no, not at all. Those farm bred puppies will all get treated like they will be working dogs until they are at least a year (barring obvious misfits). No dogs are really ruled out for something or other until they are 18 months. The first trip out is to get a feel for them to aid in setting up a training schedule and for the stockpeople to place dibs on puppies - it's quite a lottery, actually. It's more "sorting hat" than "weeding out". It was MY dog's fate that was decided on that single exposure. She was never meant to be a stock working dog and was not bred here. I exposed her because she has to live here on a sheep farm and if she was one of those dogs who would always pine for the sheep, I would have let her be a sheepdog and started over. I figure a single exposure would let me at least know whether I was being cruel and I decided she was not going to be unhappy based on her response that day and the next. Could change, of course, but I suspect not. Clear like mud again, was I?

Pano has more symptoms than sensitive long bones. It made my 6+ month old BC lame for two months - and some days it was painful just to watch her, she was in such distress, not able to touch a leg to the ground, falling off her legs, etc. Others report less severe symptoms but lameness is *always* one of them, AFAIK. Maybe the dog has some patella issues, subluxation, etc. (trick knees is the old term) that are becoming more noticeable as it ages. That makes some sense given what you describe. I dunno - if the dog is not lame ... thank yer lucky stars and count the clicks as reminders of that Do let us know if anything firther develops.

First great guffaw of the day - thanks Liz

hahahaha - that's hilarious I use "no" in front of many other words they learn so they are pretty used to the linguistic device. In fact, I concatenate words a lot for the smarter dogs "home" is a concept. I add "go", "stay" and "come" regularly - by the time they are about a year, they have it all down. I add "no" to many things: no speak, no bite, no jump, no chew. Seems to work out okay as long as you have proofed both words. No proofs itself, of course.

I always say Molly is a "tri" - just not a traditional one. She has a LOT of red - mostly at the points (hocks, thighs, ears, eyebrows, butt) that renders her NOT a black and white but ... yep, she's technically still a black and white. I've seen this before in B/W with some red in their lines (her mother was a red, her father a B/W) - red on the undercoat - usually disappears by the time they are a year but you always see it in the sun.

Amen indeed. That's perfect.

Double oops until I am near a proper computer and can process these images correctly. Suffice to say, she is getting her long coat and looks like a lion presently.

Oops

And herein lies the genius of the Border Collie, unreplicated in the canine world - that important distinction between biddable and obedient. The great working dog is biddable. The great pet is obedient. To make a BC a great pet is to understand this and not fight with it. You *cannot* win that war, just a few unsatisfying battles.

At -26 weeks, Molly weighs 42#, stands 22.5" and went from stout legged and short backed to long legged and long backed. She is a complete athlete and runs faster than any dog I have ever had. She's sound as a trumpet and I swear she is making up for lost run and jump time. I believe she is nearly done growing and is about to have her first heat. Apparently she is doing EVERYTHING at breakneck speed.

@Liz Yeah, I think I was supposed to be the "pet home". Only I moved back home. My experience with them when they were sent away from the farm is quite different from how it is now that I am here and not quite in the midst, but definitely on it. Depends a lot on why the dog was retired as to whether they can do sports. We try hard to use the dogs in less demanding roles - such as hill gatherers or boat dogs - sometimes just letting them go along and keep the handler company or do some gate helping. But sometimes they are retired because they begin to kill sheep or become otherwise aggressive, or they become unbiddable or develop other strange personality quirks that make them unsuitable for your everyday pet owner. I was the one who got the dogs like you describe. The ones who were too unhappy around the sheep but were fine once removed from the environment. Some were not suitable for someone who did not have a fair bit of dog experience but the ones who were in good health and injury free and did not have any really weird quirks, I tended to find sport or service homes for. I have one female here now, a 6 year old unsuitable for breeding but still intact, who was retired due to a hearing problem but who is otherwise pretty much perfect. I will need to find a home for her because she does miss the sheep and is not thriving. Dogs who live with me must either thrive or move along to a place where they will. I am not so attached to any creature, including my children, that it trumps their well being. Which sort of explains my somewhat sentimental and anxious worry that my puppy would fall in love with sheep. Maybe not a possibility but it would have meant she had to move along and I am rather attached to the little bugger.

@Gentle Lake She was somewhere between needing to be carried off and eating poop. Haha... that should not make me happy but it does

@mum24dogs Yes, I thought others might have different experiences. All of my retired bcd came from this farm and dogs do not get retired except for very good reason... The sort that tends to rule out many things.

When my dogs bark at a door knock, I thank them sincerely, praise them and tell them to "no speak". It works once they get the concept. Dogs who don't stop barking are put away pretty quickly. If they put paws on someone without being asked they are instantly put away and not allowed back until the people are leaving. My dogs put paws on me all the time and I like it but most people don't so they need to get that. By put paws on, I mean jump. The BC puppy has discovered that touching someone gently with one paw on their leg is sort of okay. Good for you for training this stuff - it will make YOUR life much better

That makes sense. There are also two working dogs that live here at the moment. My mother still likes to tend her own little flock of hair sheep. So maybe that's it.

heh - thanks "Grampy" is an old stockman with a real talent for sizing up a dog. He claims that a dog that shares a bit of your breakfast - even a crumb and lap - works better for you He says that Molly is *my* dog and will only give a crap about sheep if I do. I am choosing to go with this wisdom "She's a good little collie dog," he says. They're all "collie dogs" to him

Typically a retired sheepdog is not a good fit for sports - either the injury, the previous training or the instincts. Others may have different experiences. That said, I have successfully trained retired sheepdogs to be tracking dogs for SaR. I have recently moved back to the family farm and I am rethinking my policy of being the go-to person when a home is needed for a dog that can't work any more. Most of them stay in the homes they lived in while working as they are part of that family. That sometimes does not work as new dogs come into it, etc. Prior to my moving back they were shipped to me and lived with me on my rural (but not sheepfarm) property. In fact, you would have had to drive plenty of miles to find a sheep where I lived (prairies). I never had a really sad one until I cam back home. No doubt that is part of it - so close and yet so far. I find retired working dogs make as good a pet as any other dog - it's all about personality and character - as long as they are with people who understand the quirks that working dogs develop over time (hyper altertness, biddability does NOT equal obedience, a certain sort of attention that might seem aggressive with moving things, including people, etc.)

I have three retired working BC living with me. Two are fine. One is not. Two are like any other dog. The third lies around all day looking towards the main farm yard and sometimes cries when the whistles start. Maybe they've given her whistle calls to another dog already and she's hearing it. I dunno - all I know is that she is not a happy dog and she used to be. She was retired young (7) due to an injury that has left her permanently lame (but not in any pain, she got into it with a coyote and her leg was mangled quite badly and never set properly). One of those ones that probably should have been put down on the spot. Hindsight and all that. Oh, we've had all sorts here. Yesterday the puppies went out to meet the sheep and while Molly seemed interested, she was not fixated. Two puppies had to be collected and removed with some (gentle) force. Two started eating poop and playing with leaves, one ran yelping to someone's legs when a ewe turned quickly on him and one other simply didn't go into the pasture - he waited by the fence post. Not all BC have that "bug", for sure. Edited to add: so this is the morning after. My test was going to be letting her decide where to go first thing. She did not want to go to the main yard where she was taken yesterday. She did not want to go towards the pasture she was taken to. She wanted to go where we always go ... through the forest and across the brook and up to "grampy's" where she had her sip of his coffee and a piece of his toast, like we do most mornings. So...all that angst for nada So, yeah, you all were right.

Maybe it is because I live ON sheep farm but I have seen the phenomenon of dogs whose spirits seemed nearly broken when they couldn't work sheep. I have also seen dogs who look at the sheep, wonder what all the fuss is about and could take them or leave them. At the very least she needs to be trained not to be a menace around the many sheep she will enounter every day. It's much more likely she will be like one of the 85% or so of moderates, dogs who can and will work sheep but don't seem overly disturbed not to even if they are around them. I don't quite want her to be the 7.5% (or whatever the actual numbers are) that is afraid of/predatory towards the sheep but I would really love it if she was not one of the ones who, once bitten, never get over the bug. Those dogs DO exist and I have met a few. You are all right, of course, it may all turn out perfectly.

At her age she can hold it but might not consistently. The bigger concern for me would be chewing and other destructive behaviours. Eight hours is nearly long enough for a puppy to develop a habit. Around 5 months I felt my puppy understood house rules enough to stay out when I was gone. Worst case is you are mad at them as soon as you get home. Good luck!

I do not begrudge any individual their individual dog - whatever its provenance and lineage. I do begrudge, in general terms, the *breeding* of these dogs for purposes other than working as that changes the breed. It's not complicated at all. They are wonderful dogs BECAUSE of the steadfast unwillingness to breed for anything except working ability and, frankly, I resent our crazy culture for its unwillingness to respect any boundaries. This is the first BC puppy I have ever had and I grew up on a working farm, spent a great deal of my life around working dogs and train service dogs. I did have retired working dogs - usually 2 or 3 at a time. I never got a puppy before because I was living away from the farm and didn't want to get a sheepdog that would never have a chance to actually *be* a sheepdog. It's a personal thing. Doing "my part". That all said, I respect everyone's individual right to do what they want with their dog. The deal I have with myself is that around 6-7 months my puppy will be sent out to "meet the sheep" with the farm puppies of her general age on their first foray into the pastures. If she has a sheepdog's heart, that will be apparent and I will ... well, I will let her be a sheepdog. I am not a stockperson - I don't handle the stock except the horses and we do not use dogs on horses except as tandems for handling the cattle - and we do not tend to use BC for that task. So, if she IS a sheepdog, I will essentially lose her. Which will make me sad - but not as sad as watching her wish she was working the sheep instead of whatever thing I have her doing. If I did not live on a farm, I doubt I would have gotten a BC puppy and would have gone, again, with a Toller for the service work I do. But that is ME and my strange ways. I have an idea of the workings of a sheepdog and I know, first hand, what it does to them if they discover their sheepdog soul and have to .... not be sheepdogs. Saddest thing in the world is an early retired sheepdog who CANNOT work. If you have ever met one, you would understand. Do I think anyone else should think this way? No. Not at all. All I hope is that people who get these dogs for non working functions respect what they have and don't breed them.

Our breeding program considers confidence to be primarily environmental and entirely remedial. When that assumption proves itself with the odd exception, that dog is removed from the breeding pool and is considered a one-of, unsuitable for work.

Yeah, the poo itself would not have phased Gidget. Your response to the poop was probably the most traumatic thing of all. Dogs, especially BC, are very sensitive to their people's emotions. My dogs eat chicken shit all the time - I have to work hard to stop them because it's everywhere around here and high in protein. The only thing that works on the BC is to act all disgusted with them. They hate that even though they love the poop. Then there's the BC who thinks cat shit in the cat litter box is special treats with a crunchy coating. Dogs, eh?

I train a "come along" which is to stay at leash distance from me - in any direction that is not directly ahead of me (I am still in charge of the direction and pace and I want the dog's attention). I train this by starting when they are very young and I can pick them up and place them where I want them. I train it several times a day, every day of the week. They must go at my pace - so speed is controlled. It is really leash training without the leash. When they are on a long leash or running looser, I use a "slow-easy" command which is useful for inside places, when children or elderly people are involved, where you are not sure what is ahead, etc. - I use it later for formal training with Service and SaR dogs. Essentially it is a voice modulation command - could be any word, really. I have conditioned them to respond to a "slooooooow" tone. Easy to teach while walking on a leash. Just go slow and use your voice tone/word pronunciation to match your speed. Dogs respond to it like people do - intuitively. When they are conditioned it is a very very useful tool to have. Slows their responses to things - gets them to approach situations/people more calmly and with thought.

I do love a good discussion, with or without disagreement. As long as we keep inventing venues for good conversation and the civil exchange of ideas, we'll continue on our merry evolutionary path. From salon to silicon, we keep finding ways to talk. I value this place, even when it makes me bonkers. Maybe I value it even more when it does.