CMP

Worst fight I have ever seen was between two alpha bitches and the only way we could break it up was with water. As in nearly fire hose strength water. And the only reason that worked was because they were on a hill and we could wash one down. Both had extensive injuries, both needed surgery. Five more minutes and one would have been dead. At issue? A dead puppy. Which belonged to neither of them. I never ever got that one figured out. And these were both well trained stockdogs. I always wondered whether it could have been prevented. Once it got going no command under the sun was going to stop it. but I do often wonder whether it could have been prevented. I dunno. I'm not a fan of taking my dogs out and about into the general public for that and other reasons. So, I guess my answer is "water".

I don't find it to be true that younger vets are any different from older vets in terms of letting things work out as opposed to exhaustive testing and so on. When me and my puppy were in the midst of our quest to find the cause of her intermittent lameness, I got opinions that ranged from "leave it be and see what happens" to "this requires exploratory surgery yesterday". Some came from old vets, some from young vets, some from city vets and some from country vets. It was all over the place. The advice I ended up taking was from a young vet who advised a program of careful restriction where the dog was more or less in charge of her own activity. To this day, I am not entirely sure what it was. Pano? Possibly. Striations were "obvious" to one vet and "not evidence enough" to another vet. All I know is this: it can make you bonkers Use your common sense, take the professional advice under advisement and head down a course that you feel comfortable about - be ready to make a shift or change your opinion and watch carefully is the best advice I can give you. Good luck. P.S. FWIW I do not believe I have ever had a puppy who did not do something to one or more baby teeth. I only had one extracted because it broke off below the gum line and was causing the dog pain. I was advised to extract in other cases and decided against it but watched carefully.

Good luck with your search.

My pack is 11 at present, with 7 core members and 4 temps for whom I am trying to find homes. They all get along ... mostly fine. The core is rock solid. The temps sometimes feel overwhelmed. Dogs adjust.

Absolutely agreed.

@ Donald - haha, that makes me laugh. I once had a SaR dog who had had some early training with drug detection. She was really an outstanding tracker, a tireless worker who knew over 20 whistle commands and could track multiple scents, leaving markers when they diverged. She was really quite amazing. What impressed people? That she could hold a treat on her nose and then flip it into her mouth. Yep. @Gideon's Girl - that is a very good method. Very good, indeed.

Well, others might have ideas on this but when I have dog who does this (and many do) I tend to just slowly expand the area that I work with the dog and make sure they know I want the command followed without movement towards me. One thing I did with my last Toller who had the idea that all things must be done at my feet was to give him sit or stay commands while he was close, move myself away and then add the down, gradually increasing the space I put between us. This method worked. I have also tried throwing food rewards to them when they do what I ask. Some dogs seem to think the treats must come from your hand and they want to be by your hand. I don't train with food very often and sometimes the novelty of it works all by itself. That method has worked. Truthfully, trial and error being what it is, I learned from that dog to train around it from a young age. I give my dogs two types of recall commands - the one is just a "where are you? show me where you are" ("Molly! Eyes!") and the other is "come to me" ("Molly! Come!") so they are used to doing things at a distance. Sometimes the check in is followed by another command (if the check in comes from the chicken coop area, for instance) and a "get out of that" or a "come" command follows. It's sort of a trick because once you have their attention with the check in, you can add the command you really want. I often abuse it. I just recondition it by using it as a check in a few times after each abuse. Bait and hook is a time honoured dog training tool So, you could give her a check in type command that is meant to be done at a distance to condition her to following commands where SHE is, not where YOU are. I have also used more extreme methods of getting dogs to be able to pay attention when not by my side. I send them for a "get" and then throw in "slow/easy" modifiers on the "bring". I have used a closed door method - dog close but on the other side of a door. I would say anything you can do that will get her used to the general idea that commands are to be followed where she is, when you give them - so get her to sit on the other side of the room first, then leave the room and get her to sit by commanding her from the hall, etc. I would make sure to use a command she is really really conditioned with as you don't want a problem with trying to teach a variation on an unproofed understanding. Maybe others have suggestions for things they have done to help aiding a dog in understanding about distance commands. Us who live on farms or in rural areas have the tremendous advantage of not really needing to teach it often as it happens quite a bit naturally. I had to tell Molly, three times a day, until she was five months old, not to go poking at the rooster. I had to tell her this from a distance. When she listened it was great, when she didn't she came home in a few minutes with a rooster chasing her I would, frankly, just start widening the distance between you when you give her commands. Three or four feet a day and in ten days you're ready to start making it more complex, I would say. Good luck.

Okay, seriously. This needs to be made into a t-shirt, tagline, macro, sound bite ... whatever. A thread needs to be started that has that as a title and then everyone can deposit their favourite scenarios where that is actually the answer. I think it is the thing I hear most. "It's just the herding instinct..." Anyway - made me smile.

You know, I doubt trials need to be changed so very much. I think they are and will remain the best, however imperfect, method of establishing and maintaining a diverse quality breeding pool and thus preserving and allowing for the evolution of the breed. I think more working dogs need to be in them. So, I think more farmers need to trial. So I think the problem, if there is one, is not in the method so much as in the sample. More dogs doing more types of work need to be represented. It's probably less a question of operations than one of marketing. There are a few young cousins here who have a very keen interest in working with the dogs and who follow the trial scene closely and who would like to trial. I would very much like to see that come to pass.

Yeah, that makes sense. Gosh, I love this forum.

This.

I am NOT an expert on this, AT ALL. But it has to do with the genetics that control color. In this case it sounds like the dogs carry a "dilute" gene. My black and white rough coat has a red and white mother and she has the same reddish/brownish fringe on her ear hair, around her butt, under her belly and on her leg fringes. She has a bit around her eyes, too and while she is not a tri, she looks like one in some lights. She's 6 months old. So, it's not an necessarily an age thing. As noted below, there are other reasons. Example photo below: Do you mean like that?

I find the Border Collies exceptionally independent. They were bred to be. For example, our farm is literally in the mountains by the ocean. Pastures are hillsides, plateaus and little islands are where our dogs work and they have to work all by themselves fairly often, with the human standing a fair distance away, at the bottom of the hill usually. Independence is critical. Not sure about other people but it is valued here and considered a quality that puts a plus mark in that dog's breedability column. Like CptJack, if my BCs get bored, they rarely just snuggle up and stick to me, they go find something to do. If I give them five toys and stop playing with them before they have them all figured out, they ignore me totally and pay attention to the toys. They are not snuggly except when they want to be and will get quite miffed if you try and make them snuggly when they don't want it. Want to get bit or bitten at? Try and pick up a Border Collie that doesn't want to be picked up and most, in my experience, do not like being carried. They are fabulous life companions - but they are not lap dogs. They are really loyal and love doing things with you - but they won't tolerate a lot of "lets sit here and be quiet together" unless that is what THEY feel like at that time.

I would guess that the peeing on the floor in front of you is the best way she knows of letting you know she is uncomfortable doing it outside. Probably because the other dog is doing a broad brush version of resource guarding. The resource being his environment, home, human, etc. I would separate her time from his for a while. She will soon be old enough to assert herself. Until then, she needs to be able to do her business without feeling threatened. FWIW, I would let her out first to do her business and bring her back in for breakfast while the other goes out. Then she starts her day with two positive things - peaceful peeing and breakfast alone with you. Then she can go out again for a run and a poop while he comes back in for his breakfast. Then I would make sure to put them back together again for joint play time. Both dogs will be looking for you to deal with the problem. The boy wants you to be more his and the puppy just wants to feel safe. You can give them both what they need, I think. At a current high of 11 in my pack which is a core of 7 but always has some foster dog or rescue dog or new retiree, etc., I have many little issues such as this on an ongoing basis. This one doesn't like to eat near that one and that one breaks that one's tennis balls and this one barks at that poor one every time he squats for a poop. I cater to it for a few days while I figure out a solution, but my theory is I will only aid in setting up conditions to be right, I rarely interfere between the dogs themselves. In other words, I don't get on them for being rude to each other, I tend to try and set up situations where they don't have the opportunity and it builds new behavioral habits and eases some issues that started it in the first place. YMMV, of course and I am not a professional trainer.

^^ Absolutely - that is, in my mind, socialization. Your dog, with you, learning to meet the world in a happy, acceptable way. I don't want them chasing random dogs for their balls or wrestling with "dog knows when he had his last tick medicine" fido from Timbuctoo. Yes, I am a snob about that. I do want them happy in the world, unafraid of it, comfortable with how they ought to act. In some ways the Dog Park is the antithesis of how I want my dogs to act around other dogs.

^^ Also many people (true in my case for all except the service dogs) don't care how well their dogs get along with other dogs so long as they are not aggressive. I don't much care. I don't take my dogs very often into public places (again, except the service dogs) so all I care about is that they are mannerly, not aggressive, climatized well enough to be not traumatized if not comfortable. I think "socialization" has become the new black. Yes, I agree it is important - but it's a very human concept. For people who compete, who live in an urban area, who travel with their animals, etc. it is important for the animal to be comfortable - but socializing the dog is best done, in my experience, one on one with yourself. I expect it's a matter of what you do with your dog, what you want out of the relationship you have with your dog, where you live and your life circumstances. Everyone will have a different take on it. My dogs do not go to dog parks except once or twice as part of the puppy "socialization" process, but generally I do not let them play with the other dogs very much because I do not always trust other dog owners. I do not think my dogs would tell you they felt sad about this if you were to ask and they could talk

Crazy mix here... some play a lot, some a little, a few hardly at all and one or two virtually never. I find the retired working dogs the least playful but the most tolerant of being played on. Those dogs have a different idea of fun, generally speaking, and the way for them to be happy involves going with them one on one up into the hills. They run and chase things and swim and lie in the sun on warm rocks. I actually find my 6month BC to be the least playful, in the traditional sense, of any puppy I have ever had. She will outright make snappy noises at anyone who baby talks to her.

I know that some things I can suppress outright (nipping, herding people, chasing cars, etc.) without any problem because none of the working dogs are permitted, of course, to do any of those things and they still manage to ... you know ... herd. With other things I try and find acceptable alternatives - simply because it makes me smile to see them happy. Molly does fabulous outruns, for instance ... around the wheelbarrow. She's has a natural tendency to head and fetch and I taught her to drive so now she does her little outrun, comes back around and "helps" me move the wheelbarrow in the direction I am going. But we're pretty clear that it is the wheelbarrow we are working, I am not being worked. Once, it slipped from my hands and went trundling (sort of slowly, weirdly) down the hill. I thought I was in for a vet visit as she was determined she could stop it by force of will. She barked at it, plunked in front of it, ran at it and tried to grip it. She was MAD and barked at it even after it stopped, issuing a very clear challenge ... "Next time, wheelbarrow, I am going to bite your tire right off, you got that?" Hah - yes, they all think I am somewhat ridiculous around here. Do I care much? No, not really :/

Good, yes, keep us posted. I love to hear about your journey, Bill. It's wonderful how open you are to Juno's needs, she is a lucky dog

I also found that a fascinating read. Just the other day I was referring to it to establish which phenotype my puppy fits into and whether she's true to that type (insofar as one can tell in a 7 month old). She could be Old Hemp himself, based purely on build and coloring. Anyhooo ... it *is* a fascinating read.

@juliepoudrier Right. I see that now after reading it more carefully. My bad. Apologies.

Sounds wise. The nipping would be the thing I would concentrate on as well. Good luck.

@Maxi - I swear I could follow you around like a puppy dog and just read your posts. I shall third the sentiment. It IS a wonderful resource.

Gads, Also. If Juno is not yet a year, you won't be able to stop her from doing many things with this command, just yet. It requires, in my experience, a solid six months of conditioning to be truly valuable and cannot be counted upon with great certainty in a dog under a year old. The thing about organic is there is no instant result - which is probably why it works.

^^ Also I should confess that I was and remain too lazy to chase dogs or bother with leashes unless I REALLY REALLY have to and I very much dislike yelling. A dog that will drop to a down and stay even if the command comes from a distance or in the middle of exciting activity can be stopped from knocking over a child, running onto a road, eating things they ought not to, jumping on your grandma and so on.