CMP

Good points about working dogs. On the farm, puppies live together in a kennel until they are three months old, with daily human contact, exercise and play (they go swimming and ride on the equipment and are walked around the areas for familiarity and recieve what we call "low level" training: human interaction, basic manners, sit, down, wait and are handled (especially feet) - but mostly they are left to be puppies. At three months they go into crates at night and spend time each day observing the dogs in the yard and are housed out and given further low level training (all obedience related, all very basic). At six months or so a basic cull is made where the puppies deemed to be best suitable for work are selected. For the next six months the puppies do the following: bond with their handlers, learn to be comfortable around the various animals they will work with (our dogs work with cattle, sheep, goats and horses) - essentially they go everywhere with the person they are expected to work with, learn to be more or less completely obedient (as much as a good working BC should be that) - but there is very little actual "stock work training" except in proximity observation, some "puppy games" with well-dogged stock, etc. At a year or so - 10-12 months - depending on the dog, they begin training for real. Dogs do not go to "work" alone until they are 18 months old. Point is: you are probably (there's a caveat which I mention below) not far from this schedule yourself. Caveat: they have not been allowed to acquire any bad habits, either - and their lives have been very structured. You will need patience and I would guess the biggest hurdle will be undoing the habits your dog has learned during his time of being his own boss.

Yes. He can be trained. It's not an easy road, but harder ones have been travelled by rescue folks all over the world. It will take dedication but you sound up for that.

Wow! Look at her now! She got a sheepdog nose! She's gorgeous. Looks like she has some eye.

After reading all the replies in this topic I think it comes down to a person's idea of what a "pet" is. For me there is no distinction - a dog is a dog and should behave like a "well mannered" dog in all things. With a good foundation a good dog can do any job (with the requisite innate skill set) and fulfill several roles - such as sheepdog, companion, sleeping buddy. I don't indulge dogs in the sense that they get away with things. I do indulge them in the sense that they tend to have lots of toys/teaching tools masquerading as toys and bones and good food and good vet care and attention and love. But even the best loved dog, who is intended to be little more than companion has to come when called, sit quietly when told to, not demand my attention, not pull me on a leash, stay inside their defined boundary, not bite or bark or growl at me except in play and only chew on things they are allowed to chew on and in the places I allow chewing. To not do this would make that "pet" a pain in the ass and I don't want my pets to be THAT kind of pain in the ass. I don't equate "pet" with indulgence but I have watched an awful lot of pet owners fail their dogs BIG TIME by not insisting on being listened to. How confusing that must be for the dog. Sometimes they can stretch a command into two or three repeats, but sometimes you give them bloody hell for it ... sometimes they have to lie down when told and sometimes they can avoid it by being really cute or running off or whatever ... A good dog, if it has the innate talent, can be a good sheepdog or a good pet or both if the "pet" philosophy includes somewhat foolproof obedience in most things and absolute obedience in some things. The boilerplate, if you will, of both functions *should* be the same, IMO. As always YMMV and if I have not yet apologized for my rather rampant verbosity, I do so now.

Interesting topic with a good discussion. Thanks for that. Although I don't personally handle dogs on sheep, I grew up around it/live with it - and it seems to me that the thing I always hear handlers teaching other handlers is that it is their responsibility to not let the dog fail if possible - and that means knowing the dog well enough to stop him from making the mistake. Different stakes, I know - but it's not different than training an 8 week old puppy - you have to watch for the signs and not let them herd you/bite your ankles and stop it before it starts. Trying to undo a behaviour which is driven by instinct and hard coded genetic imperatives is hard - so you need to teach the dog to resist the urge rather than correct the mistake the urge created. Again, take it for what it is worth - I am NOT a handler except in that semi-dangerous second hand way.

Our working dogs do not trial or otherwise "prove" their working ability and you would have to go fairly far back in the studbook to find a "champion" (six dog generations, anyway) so they might look like a bunch of no-names but every single one of them is proven where it counts. For about a decade they go to work every day they are able and the farm could not function without them. I think there is a triple divide in the BC world. There are actual working dogs (some of whom trial - but not many), working bred dogs that are used for trialing (some of whom actually work, but not many) and sports and pets and no-name dogs that are used as pets which may or may not be working bred or sports bred or whatever. Frankly, I think dogs are like horses. Sometimes the breeding of champions produces champions and sometimes it produces well pedigreed duds. Sometimes the breeding of duds - well pedigreed or not - produces champions. Genetics are a funny, generation skipping thing, in reality. To speak to the actual question in the original post: all of our working dogs live in houses. Most often with the person who would best be described as their most usual handler - sometimes this means one person has three or four dogs who live with them. All the working dogs are loved and most are beloved. They are petted and played with (well, most of them want to be left alone at night, but the option is always there) and taken swimming and given treats and bones and left to sleep where they wish inside the home, etc. They are members of our extended family and treated as such. One of them lives with me although I am not his handler - we have just always liked each other and when I moved back to the family farm and got a BC puppy to train for service work, Moss came to live with us as a role model for her. An arrangement he seems to like as he chooses to come here every day even though he is welcome at his old home. Point is - everyone has a different view of these things. You will get a hundred opinions and similar "horses's mouth" stories. I would offer this reminder about the breed: they came to be DESPITE THE FACT/BECAUSE OF THE FACT they were never bred traditionally - the best dog was used, whether he came out of a good dog or a bad dog, traits skip generations and some animals were born great - even if they were born in the bloodline ghetto. Every Border Collie, in my experience, needs his or her own proving ground and bloodlines only tell you what MIGHT be - they will never tell you what WILL be.

Oh, I was just making a general comment (I read the entire thread so it was all sort of melded together for me) - I was not at all responding to your post or your situation. Sorry for the confusion.

I think correction is an *absolute necessity* if for no other reason than to give the dog a positive framework for the inevitable moment when ONLY a correction will do. A dog running towards a road is not a "hey cutie pie, come to mama" moment, it's a "stop in your gd tracks, dog, and get your ar*e back here." It will carry all the hallmarks of a correction: it will have an implied consequence, it is not negotiable, the speaker is willing to enforce it with as much force as is necessary and it indicates a seriously wrong behaviour which must not re-occur. A failure. I don't correct often, but when I do, I do it with a great deal of authority. I don't mean the moment to moment, "no no" when training a young puppy about the basics of life and "no" is an instruction and not a correction - I mean the times when the dog is about to run onto the road or fails a recall in an important situation or bites down on the kitten's head or is about to put his paws on the campfire bricks. This also includes other critical infractions such as jumping on people or trying to get to a place I have declined permission (this would cover leash stuff - she would not have my permission to go farther than the length of the leash) I will physically restrain (across chest with my arms), remove (pick up and carry), repel (walking stick) any behaviour which is simply unacceptable ever under any circumstance. My father - who I considered a great "dog man" used to tell me that the kindest thing you could do for your dog was to give it limits, never negotiate them and be prepared to enforce them (without cruelty or abuse, of course). It sets the lesson quickly and completely if it is used judiciously. I think positive reinforcement is the best way - in general terms - but I think adhering to it dogmatically and without regard for the absolute need to have a clear and unassailable order of authority is not very wise. I watch the handlers work with the young sheepers all the time and I sometimes find myself thinking the real value of a Border Collie lies in his ability to act like a professional - that is to say take correction in stride and make the right decisions thereafter. It is likely a disservice to them to take the long way around simple issues - resulting in perpetual nagging and them tuning you out - when there IS a way to give them the lesson quickly, efficiently and without any sort of trauma by insisting on your authority being recognized. At 17 weeks, my puppy does not get second chances on recall. She comes or I go get her and move her to where I want her to be. There are no second chances on leashes or lines - if she pulls, I pick her up and take her home. Anything I KNOW she knows, she is expected to respond properly to. If she is to be my companion and a trustworthy service dog both of us must always know what to expect from the other. YMMV, of course.

That is absolutely fabulous!

I use a nylon collar until they're mostly full grown and then switch to rolled leather. I find it decreases matting. I wouldn't use one on a dog that pulls on a leash - but otherwise, I prefer them - they're cleanable with a little saddle soap and can be kept soft and pliable. They do not last as long as nylon.

Kristen - I'm from eastern Canada and I do NOT have any broad experience in the stock dog world despite being from a family that is "in the business". I suppose its supply and demand and my experience is that working bred dogs are not surrendered to non working environments unless they do not make the cut for the work at hand. As I say, I am not a member of the broader BC world and don't know a gnat from a fly in that regard. In any case, I can see why a person would want a working bred dog and I certainly hope one is found.

Man, that was a GREAT read. Thanks, Donald. Thanks, Fly. I think I teared up a few times

Can I ask to what purpose you intend to put the dog? The requirement for working parents, both actively working, will make your search a little harder, I would think, if you are not intending to work the dog on stock. From my own experience, breeders of working dogs will rarely/never sell to someone who does not intend to work the dog. That might be just in my corner of the world, though In either case, I do hope you find what you are looking for - a BC is an experience every dog lover should have

I had a dog once who was frightened of men. I started him out with young boys - recruited a few cousin kids to come and play with him. Then we tricked him by getting older and older boys until it was a man and he didn't seem to care. Or you can find a dog whisperer, so to speak. Some male friend or professional who is patient and gentle, who has a soft voice and a calm demeanor - and you can just put them together and let them work it out (could take all day or two days). Frankly, I think the only cure is patience and exposure. I could be wrong, of course - been known to happen.

That's an excellent piece of information! Thanks for that.

I am lucky to get Molly to eat a cup and a half of food every day and I often have to add something especially yummy to get her to eat at anything approaching a regular schedule. And still people say "What a chubby little puppy!" and I have stopped telling them that all BC puppies look a little like bears. When I tell people what I feed her they look at me like I am Cruella Deville in the flesh! Our working dogs (raw meat/veggie fed) are all extremely fit and healthy and most people say they look "skinny". I agree that many pet people wouldn't know a fit dog if it hit them in the face and I, for one, find it hilarious that someone with a very fat, very unfit, panting, drooling mess of a dog that needs lifting into a chair, wants to tell me to feed my dog more. I would rather NOT have a panting, drooling, fat mess that I have to lift into a chair - I prefer a dog that can get into the chair, get out of the chair and move the chair to the shade, if necessary Your dogs look fine to me. Although the cues are certainly partially visual, the real clue is in performance fitness. Do they have enough metabolic energy to regularly and properly do the task(s) which are part of their life? If the answer is yes, then they are getting enough food. A dog that can run 40 or 50 miles in a week seems to have the right nutritional base. YMMV, of course. I amnot a vet nor do I play one on television. :/

Since I taught her first that she is NOT to grab things from me, that she is to let go when I reach for something in her mouth and that I am the boss in all things, teaching her tug of war was hard-ish. I made a cue (it's silly - I crouch a little and wiggle my fingers at her) which means "play" and that she can tug and try to win (but I am still the boss and to be respected) and I make sure I use the word "play" (as in "Wanna play, Molly?") so she understands this is not like training or behaviour in public, etc. Took *forever* for her to play tug and growl at me and whatnot. Same problem as you - she would tug for a second and then let go - not really sure what the rules were. So I put the well known "get [name of toy]" into play and encourage her the whole time to "get [name of toy]". I found a lot of little tugs and then short throws/retrieves worked. I pretended I was trying to get it from her and that I couldn't and she liked that and started being dodgy when she got back. Pretty soon she was tugging like a trooper. Mind you, I do think it's important to have some sort of limit. Some dogs tug so hard and viciously and won't let go easily and I find that a pain in the butt. Some people swing their dogs around with the toy in the dog's mouth and ... mmm ... not for me at all :/ (although I can see the appeal and don't think it's "wrong" - it's just not for me.) Some things that worked for me: 1. I got down on the ground, on my butt, and played tug with her that wau at first - it seemed to make it easier to understand this was play and not serious. 2. I smiled a LOT when she did tug and simply got up and walked away when she wanted to bogart the toy or run off with it - BC love a smiling face. 3. I used the toy as bait and wound it round my body to get her to chase it and get her comfortable playing so close to me with her mouth. 4. I used one toy and one toy only as a tug toy and called it the "tug toy" and that is the only toy she is allowed to play tug with and we don't use it for anything else. Good luck - keep us posted with your progress.

One of the traits I most love about Molly is her "eye". She's 16 weeks now and has been practising at it since she could move around. She creeps and stalks everything, never comes at toys or people straight and had to be taught not to circle behind me on a recall. She can do it for extended periods of time - such as when she is waiting for her best friend to come home around 5ish every day, she herds their shared toys into a pile (pushes them there instead of carrying them) around 4:30 and proceeds to patrol the perimeter of "home", rarely taking her eyes off the place he will eventually arrive. When he comes (he comes from the farm, on his own) she herds him (and bless him, he lets her) like she was herding a 1000 head down South Mountain. While she's waiting she treats butterflies, cloud shadows, cats, birds, bugs and beetles to a little side stalking - but only briefly, the path down which Moss comes must be watched! She is not permitted to do it to any other dog except Moss and as part of play with other puppies in the yard and she is NOT permitted to do it to people under any circumstance. Her natural instinct, to any curiosity, is to inspect it in a crouch, snout lowered, eyes boring into the object of interest, one careful foot after the other and plenty of lie downs to really look it over. Watching her one day do it to a bunch of tall delphiniums, I realized she was moving when the wind rustled them, dropping when they were still. As someone said - it's hard coded into them and most will exhibit some form, mild or strong, of it at some point, however briefly or faintly. I don't worry about it one little bit as long as I can still get her attention - which has not been a problem so far - even when the thing being stalked was a bunny rabbit. All of our working dogs exhibit a "strong eye" - it is one of the things which has been deliberately encouraged via breeding but many handlers do not like a strong eye at all.

I created a crate game for my four month old who started to resist night crating. Toys must "go to bed". Puppies can do what they want, but the toys must go to bed and stay in bed. Toys which are inappropriate/too large for the crate are put away at bedtime. Puppy is not allowed to bring toys out or play with any other random thing she can find (when I was training this, all sorts of strange household things ended up in the crate at night) - in short - ANYTHING she would consider fun is in that crate when it's bedtime - including all available water and the "bedtime snack" which she knows will cause the door to close as soon as she starts to eat it. She became a reluctant crate-dweller. But she always acted like I was tricking her and I got the "you suck" look whenever the door closed. So, I upped the ante by having her put her toys "to bed" and coming to ask for the bedtime snack which she takes to her crate herself. She started going to bed happily. I don't close the door until she is already asleep and we're both happier The idea of having a "crate toy" that she loves and can only have in her crate is also a great one. One of those stuffable Kong bones would keep her happy for a while. Good luck - keep us posted.

Sounds like she is yelling at you for leaving her. I would do as suggested: ignore her like she is invisible until the first instant of calm and quiet and then I'd throw her a "best dog in the universe" party. Puppies can make you feel a little you suffer some sort of schizoid disorder - you have to do a lot of quick switching between displeasure, indifference, happiness and bossy-ness. And it all has to be sincere - a BC can smell BS a mile away. Convincing Molly to walk beside me without herding me (leaning, nipping, circling, lunging and leaping) was a seemingly endless stream of "no,no, GOOD GIRL, no!, goooo... NO! ...GOOD gooooooood gooo....NO! NO! NO! NO! " punctuated by a million full stops and stand stills and even a few sit downs. WHen Molly demand barks (usually when I am preparing food and, lately, eating) I just tell her to stop being such a jerk-face and then act like she's too idiotic to be my friend and ignore her like she has cooties. That just makes her prance around with her ears all pricked up, trying to be cute. Usually makes her forget to bark. I often give her a few good natured "yeah yeah"s and make her work for the "atta girl". Good luck.

I have had a chronic illness for over twenty years. The last specialist I saw had not been a doctor as long as I have had my illness and in response to a query about medication options, said, "You probably know as much about this as I do." My grandfather could look at a dog, take a quick sniff of his breath and ears, and tell you a lot about his health. Vets respected his opinion and sometimes came for advice. Point is, I think you respect the vet for what he has learned (which is certified by his graduation certificate) but need to have one that respects you for what you know and is willing to make you understand his opinions. No vet knows everything or is right all the time. Likewise no dog owner.

That all sounds pretty normal to me :/ I think all my dogs went through that phase around that time. The look you in the eye and committ an act of willful disobedience. They're testing the line - seeing how far it bends. You get to decide. When they go through it, it's a bittersweet end to the halcyon days of puppy-ness - your "dog" is emerging. Everyone handles it differently but I go into a sort of lockdown mode. No second chances on commands. If she does not come - then a leash is in order so you do not have to ask twice. They're just checking to see if you;re really in charge and you have to "pass the test". I learned to laugh instead of get mad because it can certainly make you mad. Good luck!

Yes, I agree. Which is what led to the conversation. But farmers - especially now - are a pragmatic lot. If it is useful, it may stay - if it is not useful, it may not stay. If there were an easy anwser... To be clear - VERY few are euthanized. Most are rehomed. There is no shortage of people who want a good dog as a pet/companion. The tricky part is making money at it, as was the point of the post.

Breeding dogs which you intend to sell is a business. Therefore there NEEDS to be profit. So, the fact that someone does it and earns a living is not the same as the pejorative "they're doing it for the money" which implies some sort of intent which is counter-productive for the dogs. I am a fifth generation child of the same family farm where dogs are not only essential, but they have been bred on-farm for as many generations. There are 26 dogs on this property presently - puppies, working and senior dogs. No dog is bred until it has worked at least two years - so all the females are at least 3.5/4 before their first litter - and they usually only have two. My grandfather recently passed and the "dog-master" torch fell to my younger brother. Sitting with him one night not long ago as he was poring over stock books and breeding records, over handler evaluations and vet notes, he said "every year we throw away $20,000 on puppies we don't use." Which is approximately 10-15 puppies. Puppies which are determined not to be of the right type for the work required of them are either euthanized or neutered and given to family friends or relatives. Thing is, the same amount of money is spent on a puppy that will provide ten years of work as one which will ultimately be euthanized or neutered and given away before it is 18 months old. The same medical costs, the same food costs, the same housing costs, etc. Except for rare cases of euthanization at birth (in the case of deformity or obvious disease) 10-15 puppies are taken care of each year without any benefit to the farm - either short or long term. The thing was, when I checked into the possibility (which is how I ended up on this site, actually) of starting a subsidisary business of selling working dogs - I quickly realized it was probably not viable if we wanted to deal with the puppies the same way we do now. Not only do we not care about registrations and trials and what not, we don't care about color and conformation except that which might hinder performance. And the puppies the "dog master" would be willing to part with would be the ones determined not to be "excellent" in terms of ability to work. Which means you would be selling to the pet market. Which is even nuttier about stuff like registration and titles and such like that. I know of very few farmers with their own home-bred dogs that would part with a premium puppy to anyone BUT another farmer - which farmer could care less about trials and microchips and what not. It's a proper conundrum. Are there good commercial breeders of working dogs? Surely there must be - but I think people are right to be wary of such enterprises. Long winded - sorry about that.

This is my favourite thread. Just sayin'.