kajarrel

You puppy is not a killer -- it was being a puppy and killing the chickens was probably a lot of fun. How really are the chickens any different from a squeaky toy in a dog's mind? You can teach your pup to not chase/kill the chickens. Mine learn this by me simply giving them a verbal correction when they show interest. This means that you cannot allow the pup to see the chickens when you're not at home and that you need to spend time training him/her when you're at home. Remember, this is simply a containment and training issue (not a problem with the pup) - honestly, if you don't make the time to do this type of training I expect you'll also run into other problems with your pup . . . Kim

What Vick did was wrong, wrong, wrong. But I find it interesting that you posted the quote, above, rather than another from the same article: I sincerely hope he will be successful. Kim

No, hypocricy is when a person says something first and then the behavior that follows is contradictory. Here we have a person who did something wrong first and now is doing/saying something right. It's only hypocritical if he "goes back to his old ways." Kim

I'm sorry flyer, I quickly removed the last sentence because when I re-read your post I wasn't sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with what Eileen said , and I wasn't meaning to "chastise" but rather encourage you (others) to read carefully. Often, when we get into these discussions, they degenerate into discussions about the quality of X (e.g., pets versus working dogs) rather than the substance. When this happens, I worry that people dismiss the messages. I know that I was careful to write that many relationships with our dogs are satisfying, not just working relationships. I dearly love my "pets" and in no way value my relationships with them less than those with my working dogs. Kim

Wait, back up . . . ! Where has anyone said anything about satisfaction? We're talking partnerships. Please, guys, read the posts. Kim

I'm going to go out on a limb I don't think people can have the same type of partnership with non-working dogs. (Please remember, many of us have both working dogs and pure pets). This is not a value judgment, it's based on the nature of the relationships. IOW, I'm not saying that my relationship with my pet dogs is of any less value than my relationship with my working dogs. The reason is that in the working relationship (I will venture that this dynamic is similar in all working dogs), dogs have knowledge and skills that humans need but don't share (otherwise, why use a dog?). This means that in order to fully utilize the dog, man has to trust the animal. But the dog also has to learn to trust man. It's through this shared trust and mutual giving up of control that the partnership works and grows. I just don't see this same analogy with agility, flyball, obedience, etc. Kim

What a great conversation - I don't know how I missed reading this. I have a one contributions to make: I've come to think that the "treat (edited) based" and incremental training methods underestimate the dogs' abilities and desire to figure things out. My dogs don't need to have their behavior shaped incrementally, they make great leaps in understanding simply by trying to figure something out. I don't know if this is the best example, but I've been having Sputty help me out with feeding the sheep. One ram in particular, "Fluffy", would ignore her. When she finally found out that she was able to bite him and that he moved - the (her) excitement was palpable. This was clearly a situation where she generated great excitement in the learning itself and I, literally, saw the lightbulb come on. Then she wanted to try her newfound power on other problem sheep/situations (generalizing her learning to other situations). The next step was learning when it wasn't OK (input from Kim) or necessary. She seemed to me to be thinking, "does it work here, what about there?!" Kim

Panting can be a sign of many things besides hyperthermia including pain, stress, anemia, breathing or heart problems, etc. I'd be inclined to check a rectal temp, as Kristen recommends. If he has temp, it's a no brainer - see the vet. If he doesn't, it would all come down to how uncomfortable I thought he was. If it seems like he's simply warm and the panting stops when he goes outside, perhaps he is. Several of my guys (RIP) have been "snow bunnies" and would stretch out and rub themselves in the snow (we said they made "snow angels"). In this case, if his temp is normal, his gums pink, and he's otherwise an active pup, mention this at your next vet appt (assuming nothing changes). If he really seems discomforted or if you see any other signs of distress (pale gums, decreased appetite, decreased activity, etc.), a call to the vet is probably in order. Understand, I'm not a vet - this is just how I'd approach the problem in "my guys." Kim

Desert Ranger, (Some) dogs will seriously hurt or kill cats - simply "putting them together" is foolish advice (unless you're highly tolerant of "loosing" a cat or two). Kim

I've never had a cat "disappear" and we have indoor/outdoor cats . . . And as far as time - cats need time, just different types of time/attention than dogs. I agree with Julie that you should only get a cat if you really want a cat. Just like dogs, you get out of your cat what you put in. But, unlike Julie, my cats and dogs seem to view one another as companions, particularly those that have been raised from a young age together. It's particularly touching to see my 15 year old border collie lying out in the sun with my 16 year old cat :-) They truly seem to "like" each other. And one of my cats, "Lucky", plays with the younger dogs. And two of the cats will go for walks with the dogs (imagine walking 6-7 dogs and 2 cats!). As far as introducing the cat, in addition to the previous advice, I would never leave the dog(s) alone with the cat until I'm ABSOLUTELY sure that the dogs will not hurt the cat. When I get a kitten, I usually keep it in a crate just like a puppy until it gets older so that can insure that it doesn't get hurt. Kim

Hi Liz, My ducks regularly go through my electonet but Premier also has poultry net that you might try. I assume that you'd need to clip the ducks' wings so that they wouldn't fly over it (at least mine would). I had a swan that was killed in my electronet. His mate was sitting and (unbeknowst to me) he became extremetly protective and attacked the sheep behind the electronet and got caught in it and electocuted. Of course, swans are much bigger than ducks, so I doubt this will be a problem for you. Kim

Hi Julie, I wasn't disputing what you said but, rather, adding to what you said. I think when people focus on the "wrongs" of one group, they often ignore the equal or sometimes greater wrongs of their own group. Again, I doubt that the number of farmers who "kill" dogs is disproportionately larger than non-farmers. Kim

And I bet far more non-rancher/farmer types take their "Wisp", "Fly" or whatever to the shelter (or vet) and let someone else "do the dirty deed." The bottom line is that people of all types "kill" their dogs often through no fault of the dogs themselves. This is not a sin of a particular group of people . . . Kim

Thanks for describing your experiences. Zoe seems a little better today. Still has the eye movements and is a little off-balance. But she's getting "bossy" again - which, in this case, is a good thing. Kim

An opposing viewpoint: I don't dock my lambs' tails and have never, in 15 years of raising sheep, had fly strike in the tail area. I have, however, had sheep with fly strike. It typically occurs in the damp wool of the neck when I can't get the shearer in until late spring. I also had a ram who used to get fly strike around his horns - I had to keep his horns sprayed with screw worm spray throughout the early summer. Really, the only problem I have had is with my shearers who complain about the tails -- I just tell them to not shear the tails . . . Kim

Thanks for the input/encouragement, guys. I'm hoping that it's transient too . . . I'll keep you posted. Kim

Last night Zoe, my 15 year old, was just "off." She had nystagmus, was a little off balance and slightly lethargic. Same this a.m. Took her in to see vet who thinks it's ODVD. Nothing in her physical exam is markedly wrong (other than previously mentioned symptoms). Blood work is still pending. She was started on steroids and Amoxicillin for a possible inner ear infection. I have two questions: 1) have any of you had experience with ODVD? 2) I asked the vet about Lyme disease. Zoe has had two bouts of Lyme and I was wondering if this could be another re-lapse. She had a tick on her about 1 - 1 1/2 month ago. Vet didn't think this was the case. Any experience with Lyme and ODVD-like symptoms? Thanks in advance for your input. This dog worked so hard for me -- I really want to "do right" by her . . . Kim

Cold lambs will hunch their backs, will "baa" with a low pitch and have a cold mouth (severely cold lambs will be unable to stand and become increasingly unresponsive). One caveat - a severely cold lamb should not be given fomula/colostrum. Only do this after it is warm, otherwise it will aspirate. A severely cold lamb should be given intraperitoneal glucose to provide energy while warming (I warm in a sink as described earlier). If you're going to be lambing during winter and extreme conditions, you should ask your vet/another shepherd how/when to tube feed or give IP injections. Congratulations on your new baby! Kim ETA: Like Bill, we check every 2-4 hours through the night.

No problem. My Grendel (rip) obstructed on a 1" piece of "nubby" latex toy that got wrapped with hair/wool in his stomach. I never expected this because he kept his toys in pristine condition. We caught it early, so there was little damage to his intestine, but I'm vigilent for early signs since. I hope everything turns out OK. Kim

I haven't had any experience with my dogs drinking water from the tree stand; however, if he continues to vomit after eating without any temp, I'd be a little worried about obstruction. If he's obstructed, he could initially feel better after vomiting. I wouldn't wait for signs of pain -- one of my border collies was obstructed and never exhibited any signs of pain. . . Kim

I do have a problem with people with pet dogs coming out once or twice to see if their dog "has what it takes," "to have some fun", or "to fulfill their herding instinct (read: their own needs)." I feel this regardless of the trainer's competency. As several other people have mentioned (I'll use Julie's post as an example), ". . . trained stockdogs don't spring from the womb that way, so the unfortunate side effect of that is that stock will need to be used to train dogs. " And as Pearse noted: "Training young dogs is not always pretty, but with proper training, the rough stuff doesn't last long and people who know what they are doing can train young dogs without having their sheep routinely abused. " The risk to the stock makes sense if there's some long-term expectation that the dog is going to work sheep (in some capacity) properly. If they aren't, I think that people should find some other venue to entertain themselves and their dogs. Kim

Another problem we have around here is with people who cut down trees on our (and our neighbors') property for Christmas. Again, I think that people would be appalled if someone did this to them in their neighborhoods, but see no problem doing this in "the country." I'm on a roll - sorry for the negativity. Kim

We had a funny incident here. I had my sheep grazing in the furthest point away from the road in a 20-some acre pasture we own. I was walking the dogs and was coming out of our woods. I saw a young couple strolling hand-in-hand out to see the sheep. I had my GSD and didn't want him (and the other dogs) to run to the couple so put them into a down-stay. We were at least 1,000 feet away so I couldn't hear the couple but could see everything. The couple approached, and started petting, the sheep who had crowded up to the side of the fence. All of a sudden, the young man must have touched the (innocuous looking Premier) electric fence because he jumped back. I could see the couple discussing what had happened. I, of course, was rolling on the ground laughing. I imagined the young man asking, "What was THAT?" Made my day. For some reason people seem to feel that land in the county (even when clearly posted) isn't "owned" by anyone . . . I always wonder how these people would feel if my husband and I came to their homes and had a picnic on their yards? Regarding cars not slowing for animals. This is also a pet peeve of mine. I've had people come within 1 - 2 feet (traveling at >55 mph) of my dogs holding lambs along side the road. We own property on both sides of a road where the speed limit is 55 mph. Our stretch of road has sheep and horse crossing signs. When I need to move the sheep across the road, I always have someone help me. I ask them to tell me when it's clear and then to try to stop any traffic that arrives; but I tell them once the sheep start across the road they (the sheep) can't stop. I simply will not send my dog out into moving traffic to stop the sheep . . . I cannot trust people to stop for my dogs :-( Kim

The posts were referring to their dogs chasing small mammals and reacting to stock after being exposed to sheep. I would not say that this is the trainer's fault. It's due to an attitude that dogs need to do "what comes naturally" without an understanding of why they do what they do. They don't need to do this and, indeed, a well bred dog (from a real "use" perspective) would have an off switch (as "we" like to call it here). Kim

1) I agree with you, Mark, 100% but also realize that most people have moved away from this perspective. 2) Regarding a dog chasing small animals, stock, etc. once it's been exposed to stock -- this is just a manifestation of #1. A dog that cannot be trusted not to chase animals would be absolutely worthless to most farmers. Similarly for a dog/handler that hassles/mishandles the stock potentially causing miscarriages, lower fertility, injuries, etc. The dog is supposed to help and to decrease, not increase, work. The original question is a good one (as worthy of our consideration as the "breeding for work issue", IMHO) but I'm not really sure what my answer is anymore. Kim