YeseniaBeauchamp

Loved the responses. Thank you so much. I talked to the woman at Petsmart near me and I asked how strict she was with things like "come" for recall and bypassing "whatch me." She didn't seem too happy with the questions. I'll try to go elsewhere.

I have never taken a young puppy to puppy manners classes, all they've ever learned has been on stock. Lie down and stand were really the only things that they might have picked up if they'd gone to puppy classes that would have been useful on stock and that wouldn't have interfered. For example, I've seen classes where they teach watch me, but a sheepdog would be learning watch 'em. The focus should be on the stock all the time. So it would be detrimental to teach them watch me. Another concern is that they're trained with a clicker and a sheepdog trains on whistles and voice. However, until a puppy is ready to begin training and working, he should be learning something. I'm tempted to take him to a class called Puppy Manners or something similar, at Petsmart. Has anyone experienced negative results from taking a sheepdog to these types of puppy classes until they're ready to handle training on stock?

Because of ivermectin sensitivity, I don't give Heartguard and I've been using Sentinel Spectrum for heartworm. As it turns out, it's also good for fleas. I also use a little bit of apple cider vinegar (the cloudy one) in their water and I use essential oils mixture of rosemary, eucalyptus, peppermint, and citronella mixed into a cup of water. I spray this on them every day before we go to the fields.

Wanted to add that the browser on BlackBerry devices seem to also be incompatible. I can't quote or edit.

Strange, I'm sorry, I can't quote or edit. My reply was to Sue R's post.

Oh it was the most helpless feeling ever. I have NO idea how or why he ultimately stopped, but I can put my hand on the Bible and sat it wasn't because of ME.

My Quote function won't work. Just want to say @MarkBilledeau, having owned a retired racing greyhound, I *know* that difference. I've lived it. And it is horrifying to experience in open country because there is NO biddability in a sight hound in full run.

I don't know how old your dog is, but you can socialize your dog in less formal ways. I routinely take mine to Home Depot, Lowe's, tractor Supply, car dealers when I take my cars for service, feed stores, Petco, Petsmart, kids' playgrounds, outside mini malls, hiking trails, Starbucks (cpoutside cafes), even some small (not chain) bookstores. My dogs, as a result, are used to noise from big equipment, squealing kids, laying down quietly and not begging, impulse control....you get the idea. If it's socialization with other dogs, I'd be careful. Ask your vet if you can put up a sign for play dates, ask for classes at Petco or Petsmart (I'm not crazy about them but they will get your dog around other dogs.) I take my dogs everywhere and I explore. I've even taken them into an AT&T store!!! (that was because I know the owner and it was late)

That's funny!!! I always freak out my dogs when I start dancing in the kitchen or when I'm cleaning or cooking.

WOW OP you are a hero to this dog. I have a great deal of respect for you and all your efforts. Thank you for giving THIS dog a chance. You are amazing.

Assuming the 4 year old mix breed hasn't got an aggression issue already, there should not be a problem. Most dogs will do fine with a puppy, regardless of sex, unless there is a prior aggression issue. I've had four males of various breeds and ages, including a terrier, living together. The terrier ruled everyone and everyone understood that. The older dog will be the top dog (I refrain from the "alpha" stuff) and the puppy will accept that. Marking may be a problem if the older dog is intact. So, unless the older dog already has an aggression issue, there should not be any problems.

Thank you. No it didn't. I got two unregistered ranch dogs whose owners are simply working rancher's. They've never heard of dog politics and their dogs work day in and day out. There are many people working who don't trial or don't go online. I took a gamble and for my purposes I am doing fine. But I can see someone less b1tchy than me getting run off and going for the first dog they can find, regardless of registry. It's sad what happens when people ask the "wrong" question or make the "wrong" comment.

I have encountered a breeder tell me that his dogs were too good for me. He wasn't a top breeder. So there ARE breeders of working dogs who won't sell to people who don't trial. I can understand, if someone hears that more than once, that he will go to a non working breeder because he wants a border collie. So there are people who are less than welcoming to people who don't fit their idea of what their puppies should do. It's their prerogative but I can see them being turned off and turning to whatever resource they can find.

Ah yes down. But I've found that a down on stock is almost a whole different command on stock. Sometimes they fight me on it, on stock. Probably the reason I don't trial!

@Sue R Yes, you were clearer than I was. Of stock related commands, the only one I teach off stock is recall. Simply because if I'm in the woods, a whistle will carry better than my voice, or if I'm anywhere that the dog's might be far. I teach that'll do on day one, first meal, running backwards with the bowl in my hand saying that'll do. I never teach a come as a recall. So as soon as I can I start using my recall whistle.

The only thing that I teach off sheep is the recall whistle.

Thank you for the informational read. It's difficult sometimes to find the right balance. My Jack tends to regard "good" or "good boy" as an invitation to slice in. He becomes excited of he hears praise, so my reward is sometimes to let him bring me his sheep. But sometimes that's not what I'm after. I haven't figured out how to let him know I'm happy with his pace or his line except to be absolutely silent.

I have no objection to the first posted link. It cautions against dogs harassing and worrying sheep. It's a short primer on what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable. What objectionable material did I miss in the first link. On the Kerry Blue Terrier - I would not put a terrier on stock. I don't believe it's got any business being there. That is objectionable. On the Bouvier - it's an owner who wants titles. God bless her. The dog hasn't got an idea of what stock is. Will he improve? Not likely, he is missing a lot. Does that mean that everyone who enters a training facility would behave in the same way? Possibly. Should those mistakes be generalised to everyone who wants to recreational put his dogs on stock? Nope. Not every hobbyist is unable to grasp right and wrong. The onus is on the trainer. By the way, my second dog was a posessed devil. He ran my girls almost as much as that terrier. So I put him up until he developed a bit more wisdom and was old enough to handle correction. And I broke my ankle running after him. He's got a nice pace now and is much calmer, although has a few WOOHOO moments.

Honest question - what are these YouTube videos? I am not immersed in trialing at all.

OK, thank you, that makes sense. I was wondering about the huge trials that last for four/five days. I really must go to more trials. I'd like to try to go to the Bluegrass. Thank you for the answer. Now let's go back to fighting!!! :-D

Possibly because, in my instance, I haven't seen an instructor using his sheep in an inappropriate manner? I would imagine any instructor would protect his livestock first, if for no other reason, if I were cynical, as it's his paycheck. What about trials? Isn't the same flock used over and over again throughout an entire weekend? Honest question, not a challenge. How is that different from an instructor led class?

I can say I don't recall one single ad where herding is promoted. I know there is a movie coming, using pictures and handlers. But I can't recall any ads or media or websites promoting herding. Maybe I spend too much time carding, spinning, and knitting. And occasionally moving sheep.

I know of many instances of dogs being sent to we'll respected trainers for some time. I don't see myself ever sending my dogs away but I know it happens. And no, I did not see that the owner is required to take classes. But hypothetically, if I were to go on an extended trip and this facility were an option for me, I would include herding, sure. The instructor there, and those who are available, are of much higher caliber than me and could tell me a lot that I might not see about my own dog, due to my lesser knowledge and my emotional attachment to my dogs. I would absolutely take advantage of a dispassionate assessment of my dog by making use of instructors of that level of knowledge.

@Mark I googled that phrase and, considering the caliber of instructors who teach there, I would classify that facility as one where a hobbyist can learn correctly, from top people in the field. On the website it states that day pass is by approval only and their in house instructor has a degree in animal husbandry, and has managed livestock since 1970. I would love access to that location.

Great, so again here is the comment of sheep as dog toys. Hopefully this thread can keep from suffering the same fate as the other thread. I think it's a bad idea to think the worst of so called recreational handlers. As I pointed out, 1) many well known people started as recreational handlers and 2) not every recreational handler is going to allow the bad treatment of stock.