Chianne

Thanks for all the help! Sweep isn't a soft dog, but he's not hard either. When I did take him to sheep I was encouraging and just stopped when he started barking and lunging at them. I've been doing a lot of obedience and all it took to make him stop and come was a, "That'll do!" and he came to me. I didn't correct him, just stopped the session. I think I will keep working on 'here', 'that'll do', Lie down' and walking nicely on a leash to prepare him for Angie in the fall. I'm sure Lyle will help with some advise at the clinic as well. One last bit of direction from Angie: Again, thanks :-)

Thanks Sue. Sweep is very biddable. I'm new to herding and wondered how harsh a correction may be in herding. He resonds well to pressure, even if I lean forward a bit. I am taking him to a Lyle Lad clinic in May. I did email Angie, where he is going for training. She just replied:

Please explain by what you mean by, "A dog that can take a correction."

I have a 9 month old pup that I have taken to sheep a few times starting at 7 1/2 months old in a very controlled environment to protect him and the sheep. The first few times he lacked confidence and shyed away. I made the training very short, about 5 minutes but kept taking him to sheep. His next phase was getting close to the sheep and barking. I them put him on a line, per the trainers advise and just walked behind the sheep keeping him under control. This seemed to have helped as now he is starting to balance at times and his tail is down and he seems to be starting to get it. He does still lack all the confidence he needs but it is clear he is ganing confidence. I have been really working on simple obedience at home and a good stop. He is doing well in that regard. Sweep is a very high drive BC, I had his pedigree analyzed and was told he has a ton of Templeton in him, mostly Ben, but Roy and Moss as well. My question is should I continue with what i am doing, just walking behind the sheep with him on a long lead or trying to work on flanks in a round pen? I have made arrangements to send him away to a trainer in the fall and want him well prepared. Thanks for any help in advance.

There are only 4 working spots left at this clinic. You can register HERE

Lyle Lad Clinic When: May 3 and 4 Where: The Spicy Lamb Farm (Peninsula, Ohio) Cost: $200 whole weekend working spots $50/day Audit The Spicy Lamb is located in the beautiful Cuyahoga Valley National Park and raises Dorsett Sheep. Round Pen and Big field for training. Lunch will be provided Both Days. Limited Space for RV's with only NO hookups Registration will Open Monday March 17th. Register Here

ISDS is now on Facebook. It may be a good page to follow for anyone interested.

I would like to know your opinion of sheep versus cow herding. Which takes more skill, more power? What kind of dog do you look for for each each type of stock?. Do Border collies that herd cows use eye like they do with sheep? Are cow herding BC's bred differently?

I had no idea about Border Wars. Thanks for the input. I do not like Bully Breeds. I mean all the bully breeds from pits to staffies. I was bitten on my hands. arms and ankle requiring 3 skin graphs and weeks in the hospital. I was training one in a class. It was with it's owners, I turned my back to walk away and it attacked and would not quit, Completely unprovoked. It was a rescue and clearly has some issues. In training dogs I find the most aggressive and the ones with the most issues of are pit mix rescues. Admittedly I am bias. I would never want one around me ever again or my dogs.

Not sure if any of you know about this website, DogsBite.org but it is pretty much pro BSL. But I find it interesting for a few reasons. Loads of statistics and they put a face and background on all the bully attacks and deaths. Another resource I read is the Border Wars Blog, a lot of things about BC's, mostly genetics, and some other breeds. Not too long ago there was a blog about PB's, the comments are very interesting and most come from sound scientific background. You might want to take a peek at the blog about PB's.. if for no other reason to broaden your horizons. This blog is definitely not for everyone but he is candid and calls them as he sees it. Note his blog about conformation breeding or his blog featuring the AKC, and it isn't pretty. And if you are really game, their are even PB enthusiasts, AND THE ASPCA, that claim PB's herd on farms. These videos will debunk that myth. .

I think bully breeds are a problem. They have been bred to fight for hundreds of years. Like a border collie herds, fighting is bred into their genetics. You can't change that. Selective breeding has made them what they are today. One of the many things that bother me is all the rescues labeling them as lab mixes when it clear from the pictures they are bully mixes. Then you have the nanny moms, who think all of them should be saved and can be placed in any home. In my opinion this is a dangerous strategy. I don't know what the answer is. I do know I do not trust the breed. I do not want them around me, my children, grand children or my dogs. But that's just me.

Agree. He does do it when he is bored. As soon as I start walking or want to play with him he stops and engages in play or training. I can see how it can turn into an OCD behavior.

I doubt the behavior is OCD, but could be wrong. He loves to run. It's not difficult to distract him from this behavior by calling or playing with him. He doesn't show any other signs of being OCD. He is not a farm bred dog. On paper he has a good working pedigree. His mom s out of Aled Owen's Bob and Janet Beale's Astra Bute, who is out of Sweep, who won the ISC in 1998. Fly comes from along line of Champion dogs. Her half brother won the 2007 International and her father won it in 2000. I know Astra dogs aren't popular on this board. His dad is Brock, an open trial winner, has won the Irish Shepherds Nationals in 2006 and 2007. He placed second in an open trial in Northern England in 2009. He is a litter brother to James McGee's Becca. He is a very high drive pup but is very biddable. Would your advise be to stop this behavior?

I have a 16 week old pup that always, at any chance he gets, runs huge circles when I let him out. The total ground he covers is about 100 yards. He runs like the wind when he does this but always comes back to me, even if I don't call him. He does this at least a dozen times a day. he always runs counter clockwise. It's really his favorite thing to do. My yard is not fenced and he is never out alone. he did the same thing at my friends home in his yard. Every time he was let out he would run in as big of a circle as his fenced yard allowed. I kid and tell people he practicing his outrun. In jest of course. This behavior puzzles me. Anyone know why he does this or is just a quirky behavior? is a link of a video I took of it to show the distance he covers when he does this. Here is another video of how much he does it on my FB page.

The AKC Therapy title is not certified through AKC. The test is done through Delta or TDI. After 50 therapy visits you can pay $20 and AKC can give you a Therapy Dog Title, oh IF you are registered with AKC. What a gimmick this is! Delta and TDI do the testing, certification and provide insurance for the working teams and AKC gets to hand them a piece of paper (title) and let them put some worthless initials after the dogs name and pic up $20. If it's AKC, it's about the money!

The AKC Star Puppy progream puts a lot of focus on the pup being with you and very close to you because next to you is the reward/reinforcement zone. I know I give the classes. Not so sure i would want a working border collie pup that wants to be my clingon.

As someone that speaks from experience from choosing bad breeders, I can only tell you to follow the advise you are given here from experienced border collie people. I will likely still make mistakes, but at least now I know to come here and ask for feedback here first.

Where do you find a 1,000 feet line? I can't imagine working with a line that long!

I've seen the 'whoosh' noise of where using a stick has been effective. Am I correct in assuming the noise with a whip may be even louder and for that reason work better?

"I must say that Bobby Dalziel’s approach to training young dogs, which utilizes a very long line and a lunge whip, was so different from what I had been exposed to before, that it was very difficult for me to apply. But now that I have worked with him for 12 days I am beginning to see the light. Bobby absolutely LOVES to work with strong and tough dogs. I think he sees himself excelling with this type, and he understands his method of exerting complete control over a dog early on as bearing the most fruit with the most challenging of dogs. I believe I most benefited from his approach because it allowed me to become quieter with my dogs. In fact, his approach demanded this from me. I think I was fairly typical in thinking that I had an acceptable stop on my dogs even though I would often have to repeat the command several times, louder and louder, before I got a positive response. I thought it was acceptable for the dog to often get going on its own without my “walk” command, and that it was quite natural for me to have to keep stopping the dog and “leap frog” it down the fetch or the drive to keep the sheep from being pushed too hard. But Bobby had me go back to the drawing board and put the dogs on a long line (about 80 yards long) so that I could both control the dog and have immediate feedback. Then I could immediately take notice when the dog wasn’t complying with my commands. I learned I could expect a dog to lie down immediately the first time asked, and stay there till commanded on. I learned that the sheep acted far differently when the dog was not “leap frogging.” And that the dog moved differently—far more purposefully—and had a much more calming effect on the sheep. At this second clinic we also had far more sheep to work with and so Bobby showed us a far greater variety of exercises. Different natured sheep, in different numbers, in all sorts of practice areas, allowed Bobby to show that there was a solution for every doggie problem. Participants remarked how much easier it was to work on one problem at a time with their dogs and to proceed much more patiently from stage to stage with a dog’s development. Bobby believes in quiet handling. He advises putting a dog of seven months on a line and walking it behind sheep at a steady pace for the first two months of a dogs life. The dog is learning without knowing it, Bobby points out, and by the time it is nine months old it is ready to do serious training." This is where I saw it, and a few other places which got me to wondering how this works.

I have heard about Bobby Dalziel's long line and lunge whip method to start dogs. Has anyone been to a Bobby Dalziel clinic and seen how this works or know of any videos of it? How is the lunge whip and long line used? If anyone knows how this method is implemented I would love to know both how it is done and the effectiveness.

I'm learning that it's not what you say as much as how you say it. Corrections but still encouraging your dog to work can be tricky, especially for a soft dog.

yes it is. it's a fantastic training DVD

I ordered and received. "First Steps in Border Collie Sheepdog Training" . I loved it and learned so much. I have been to Jack Knox and Lyle Lad clinics and learned more from the DVD. Why? Because at a clinic things go so fast, with dogs working, it is difficult to see every move, mistake and success. In these DVD's they do slow motion and even stop to explain exactly what is going on every step of the way in easy simple terms. Perfect for a novice handler. There is even a chapter on starting puppies. They use different levels of dogs and even show dogs that have never been to sheep before training. They use dogs with different issues (Strong dogs, sticky dogs, less confident dogs) to show you how to deal with them. Also how to use your voice to encourage or correct and the fine line between a correction while still encouraging the dog to work. There is also a lesson on whistle's and how to use them and one of all the different types of sheep and how they react with dogs. I loved the DVD's so much, I also signed up for the website. I get all the online video tutorials now to watch as much as i want. And it only cost me about $5/month. The blog is also excellent and gives a lot of info on trialing, sheep and much more. I highly recommend this DVD for novice handlers wanting to learn.

The DVD was great but his online tutorial videos are great too. That $5 a month for membership gives you access to all his video tutorials plus his training blog. Money well spent if you want to train a dog imho. Some of his online videos tutorials are listed HERE. What was most helpful is he works with different dogs, each with their own training difficulties. He slow motions the important stuff. He even goes into sheep and what breeds are good to start dogs and why on the DVD. Loved it and learned a ton.