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Thanks everybody!

Maralynn-I have never owned a border collie. I have a golden retriever. When I got him I was interested in a BC but everyone said no no no you have no dog experience! I know Goldens aren't the same but it turns out I'm naturally really good with pretty much all dogs. I love the high energy, agile nature of a BC. I want a dog who can bike with me (moderate biking, 5-20 miles at a time), as I have stopped biking since it's no fun anymore since my Golden is too old for it. I know it would be a couple of years after getting a puppy that I'd be able to do this but I could wait that long if I couldn't find a rescue that would suit. I am also interested in a BC because of their size and athleticism to teach frisbee and agility tricks to for fun. SAR work is what really interests me though. I have read a lot about BCs from owners and trainers and I really think they're a good match for me and my lifestyle and I think I'd be able to raise one to be a happy, healthy pup.

Did you do temperament tests on your rescue dogs? What about the puppy? How did you choose them?

Not yet, because I am moving this summer. I have contacted one of the teams where I'm going. I plan to join them in the fall and do as much training as I can without the dog, all the basic certifications and such, and by then I'm sure I'll have someone there who can help me with picking a dog. I'm just the kind of person who does a lot of research about things ahead of time. I've been wanting to do SAR for like....maybe 15 years? But I've never had the time or money to dedicate to it. It's possible I won't like it, but it's unlikely. I'm the right kind of personality for it. I loved FTXs in college and rainy muddy obstacle courses and all that stuff (I went to a paramilitary university).

Thank you! Are you suggesting I should post my question as a reply in that thread?

I am interested in getting a border collie pup for search and rescue work. Has anyone had any experience with this? I searched the archives but couldn't find anything; I wonder if there's something weird with mobile as the reason, I don't know. I am also wondering if anyone has any tips on rescue adult vs working bred pup for SAR. I'm leaning toward pup to make sure they get a good training start, but would love to hear from people who actually know. I am attending a sheepdog trial in June to see if I can make connections with someone who might be breeding, maybe talk to some more people. Any tips?

I agree, Diana that was a very informative post, thank you. And I had no idea people believed this ^^. Do people really think BC's aren't used for stock anymore?! What do they think, ranchers have robots now?!?! Thanks for telling me, that does explain some of the...ahem...passion I sensed behind answers and some of the assumptions that seemed to be made about me. Thank you for all of your answers, I feel like I've actually learned something.

I'm kind of regretting asking this question, lol. Thank you so much to those of you who answered me. I appreciate the time it took to explain some genetic/biology basics. I'm sorry I have offended some by using the word "border," or have shown off my obvious snobbery by using the phrase "border collie." I'm still not exactly sure how I'm supposed to refer to the dog here. I'm also sorry for having the audacity to ask a question that has been asked before. I wanted to interact and engage with actual, knowledgeable people on the subject instead of just reading articles and the like online which usually leave me more confused than intellectually satisfied, as they tend to be watered down and highly emotional instead of informative. I was unaware that I was expected to have a 30 year knowledge of breeding history and discussion before commenting here. Again, thank you so much to all of you who very thoughtfully explained (a) what exactly people's actual problems are, ( the biological difficulty in actually creating a new breed of dog, © a few of the cultural differences around the world, and (d) that most people who may be desiring to fulfill a specific urban need would probably have their needs met with less of a designer option, thereby not making the creating of a new breed a "need fulfillment" in the historical, anthropological sense. And no, I have not seen that Nova episode, though it looks fascinating. I watch biology documentaries for fun in my spare time, I will try to find that one. Thank y'all.

Okay, this is interesting. Speaking specifically of BCs and not of general breeding theory, you're saying the herding instinct and the dog's drive/athleticism are linked? That's interesting. I wonder how much of the dog genome has been mapped?

Ah, yes, some excellent points!!! Perhaps gender (or, rather, size) only matters when you're really serious about competing on a very high level. Oh, decisions decisions! LOL Thanks!

I should add: Assuming the breeder isn't a complete idiot. Assuming the breeder has a wealth of information about biology and genetics, and specifically breeds a particular trait out of or into a particular dog. Crossing a cocker with a golden with some poodle mixed in so that, in 10 or 20 generations, they have a medium sized, intelligent, calm, mostly hypoallergenic dog that reproduces itself according to a standard and that meets an immediate need - that of service dog to children. I've seen breeders like that lambasted (not on this site, just in general) for "messing with the breed" and I just don't get it. What if that person is selectively breeding OUT the herding instinct in borders while attempting to keep their agile and driven nature? In 10 or 20 generations, maybe its something else. Maybe it's an "urban collie" or something. But is there anything really wrong with that? Or is people's problem that they are still trying to call them "border collies" and they don't necessarily have a problem with the practice in the first place?

This is an excellent answer, thank you.

I don't think people are understanding my question. I don't need reasons why I don't need a border collie. I'm not asking for advice on owning a dog or breeding dogs. I am asking a BIOLOGY and ANTHROPOLOGY question. Border collies came from something. Border collies, dachshunds, yorkies, pyrenees, malamutes, golden retrievers: they did not always exist. They were bred to fill a need. My question is, why is this any different? Yes, if someone breeds herding instinct out of a border it's not really a border anymore, just like if someone bred retrieving instinct out of a retriever it wouldn't be a retriever anymore. But I don't understand why it makes the breeder a bad person, and why it makes the dog an undesirable dog. Isn't alteration of traits to meet a new need something humans have been doing for thousands of years? Just because the need is urban, why is it considered "lesser"?

Now, before you all draw your long swords and prod me off the plank know that (1) I have no desire or plans to breed any dogs, and (2) I am asking this from purely a biological/genetic/anthropological point of view. Assuming that I am not talking about dogs bred for conformation or specialty color, which is obviously a terrible reason to continue a breeding program... Why is it such a bad thing to breed dogs for good companionship/agility/frisbee while ignoring or possibly weeding out herding/sheepdog instinct? Isn't that how all dog breeds are eventually formed, a need is seen (modern competition homes that don't own sheep or cattle but want agility/frisbee dogs who can also be good with kids so that herding instinct is only a detriment and not an advantage) and then the dog is modified to meet that need? Isn't that what created dog breeds, including the border collie, to begin with? I guess my question is, why all the hate on "designer" breeds of dogs, or breeders who are trying to change (as opposed to maintain or improve) the breed, when isn't that what humans have been doing for thousands and thousands of years?

I would like to clarify - I would then give him his food back. I mean, pick up the bowl, give him a high value treat like some cheese or a piece of hot dog, then put the food back. I have small children, and will always have small children around my dogs, that's just part of my life. I want my dogs to know that anything that happens while they are eating - if the food gets picked up, or if kids are petting them, or whatever - that it's fine, nothing bad will come of that. Do I let my kids do that? No. They are not allowed to bother the dogs while they are eating. Would I be willing to bet my dog's life (a bite to a child can be a death sentence) on any toddler's ability to always remember and obey instructions? Absolutely not.

I like really cuddly dogs. My Golden isn't really happy unless his face is in my lap, he likes laying next to me on the couch, etc. He goes everywhere I go. I know that's annoying to some people, but I love it. I got him when he was a puppy, right at 8 weeks, and I put him on a leash tied to my belt as I went anywhere in the house. For the first few months of his life, he lived next to me, trained next to me, was always getting affection from me (as well as me teaching him how to be appropriate in the house). My question is, obviously having a male golden retriever means he's gonna naturally be a very affectionate dog, but can the way you raise a pup affect its level of physical affection? I'm considering getting a female BC, and I hear they aren't as cuddly and I'm wondering if a dog will be more cuddly if you raise it that way. In other words, how much of it is just breeding and genes and how much is what they experience in their first few weeks/months of life?

I may have been searching for the wrong string of words here but I don't see that this topic has been discussed so I'm sorry if it already has. I am interested in getting a border collie in a couple of years, for agility. I'm interested in competition, but not "let's go take universe!" more like "hey it would be fun to do a local competition." I've read everything I can read about gender differences in dogs and specifically border collies and I understand that stereotypes aren't always right, but I'm wondering if anyone has any comments on gender as is relates to agility performance and not just personality in general? Anyone notice a difference in training/performance of your male vs female dogs?

I thought of this! I was actually going to ask what you guys thought about simply not allowing wild play in the house at all so the dog knows inside is for chilling out. Does anyone else do this? I'm also interested in the discussion about Cesar, particularly resource guarding. When I first got my golden I was told by the dog trainer that when he's a pup, I should pick up his food bowl occasionally, give him a little treat when he was nice about it, move the food bowl somewhere else, sit next to him and pet him, feed him a couple of treats from my hand while he was eating, so that he would learn that human interaction during food times was a good thing and didn't mean his food was going to go away. Neither of my dogs have ever been food aggressive, and I was going to ask, is this a good way to train or did I just luck out and get extremely well behaved dogs? (Goldens are, obviously, known for being super sweet and my other dog couldn't hurt a butterfly if she tried.) My other question is, I keep reading a lot about "don't let your border collie herd children/cars/whatever" but I can't really find any information about HOW you "don't let them" do this. How do you teach that? I love this forum, I've been a lurker for so long, I'm always afraid to join new forums for fear I'll be ridiculed for how little I know about things, lol, but you guys are great! Thanks!

I don't think the owner was taunting her, I think he had seen aggression previously and was using the stick to show the camera how she reacted (as opposed to, say, his own hand).

Oh, I thought if you could see more than 2 ribs it was underweight. I counted 5 ribs just from looking on the TV. But I also don't own a lab, I own a Golden (who is stocky and athletic) and my pyre/greyhound mix has the build of the greyhound so super skinny.

I'm watching that show right now, with Holly the lab. Is it just me or does that dog look skinny for a lab?

I'm interested in what you're saying here. I guess my original question was...at what point do I know that the restrictions I'm putting on the dog are too restricting? How do I know the difference between a need and a want? For example, my Golden and I went on a 10 mile bike ride today. When we got home, he wanted to play. I told him to settle down, so he went to sleep. I knew that he was expressing an over excitability and not actually telling me that he needed more exercise. I guess I'm just worried that with a BC I'll read the signs wrong or something. I'll try to be getting the dog to settle when really I just haven't provided enough stimulation. Or I'll provide too much stimulation and make him neurotic. Goldens are just generally more chill than BCs, right? I guess, how do I know that I'm doing the right thing? You mentioned kids - I mean, even with my kids I do this. If my son comes to me whining at 11 am that he wants a snack, I tell him to start over. Try again. You don't talk like that. But if he wakes up in the middle of the night whining that he's cold, I just give him a blanket. I don't make him "unwhine" at 3 am, I let it go, because I know that what he NEEDS is a blanket, not a lesson. Does that make sense? My demands are the same - no whining - but I also know that he's just a kid. A dog who is whiny and just played fetch for two hours can chill out. A dog that's whiny because he's been traveling in a crate in a car for 6 hours and has to pee is justified in the whining. I just want to know how you can tell with a BC. Also, can you tell me your opinion on Cesar Milan?

So what is a good amount (assuming the dog is old enough)? What's too little, and what's too much? How does the dog communicate his needs with you?

This is also an excellent idea, I just might do that, thank you!

Yeah, money definitely isn't the primary concern at all, if I do end up getting a BC I'm going to be far more concerned with the dog itself than how much it costs, and I've been kind of scared away from rescues in the past because of behavior issues. (The way I grew up, if a dog wasn't working, even just barely, you gave it away...I wasn't a part of "dog people" and so I feel very...out of place. Like I should know things I don't.) Y'all have convinced me to relook at the rescue idea...I actually have a tab open to our local BC rescue right now! LOL